Official BBR Tier List v7

[Luco]

Yea I meant Ness. Lucas... I heard that DDD could just standing CG at least Ness, I used to think Lucas as well... but I never verified it. In any case, I can see DDD vs. Lucas as -2, though if you'd have asked me a few months ago I would've argued for -3.

 

[bubbaking]

DDD canNOT standing CG Ness. What he can do is try to pummel release him off of a grab and then re-grab him off that. However, DDD's pummel sucks sooooo yeah, you're better off just CGing. What's better for DDD in that MU is the guaranteed pummel release > dtilt. It's a great kill set-up that makes it easier for us to finish off the squirmy kid, so you might see DDD dthrow CG you to near the ledge and then pummel release dtilt for the kill or gimp set-up.

Edit: What really kills Ness in that MU is that he's out-prioritized in nearly every way at all points throughout the match. Our bair pretty much out-ranges all of his attacks. If he attacks unsafely, which is often, it's a free easy CG which can lead into that kill/gimp set-up and he's also fairly easy to gimp. DDD also has NO reason to approach in that MU. That is literally one of the very few MUs where DDD can actually out-camp his opponent. It's super easy for DDD to establish the lead and once he establishes it, he can just sit back and relax and wait for the kid to come to him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wouldn't say DDD heavily out-prioritizes Ness, he's pretty slippery, the risk/reward is just squarely in D3's favour because of the CG and relative ease of KO'ing.

 

[bubbaking]

Slippery doesn't help Ness not get out-prioritized. It helps him avoid getting grabbed or hit. When bair solidly beats 75% of your moveset, you're "heavily out-prioritized."

Edit: DK does not get out-prioritized. Ness is out-prioritized by just one move, and I didn't even begin to talk about DDD's tilts or his other aerials. Ness has no hope of fighting through DDD's uair or dair, for instance, so he can forget about trying to follow up on him in many situations.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Who is a ness I could namesearch cause that sounds really dubious to me

A combination of Ness having 1.5 times DDD's aerial mobility, a fair with good duration, speed and range, a fast nair and a massive double jump isn't going to lose to a single move, surely.

 

[bubbaking]

Why don't you just go to the Ness boards and read up on their thoughts of the MU? That was a discussion I personally partook in, so I received the opinions of a bunch of Ness mains on the issue while giving my own input. Being "out-prioritized" was something that I saw repeated multiple times.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Interesting, I'll check it out.

 

[bubbaking]

As for "ease of KO'ing," Ness is actually one of the chars who can 'more reliably' kill DDD with bair and bthrow. If DDD is forced to upB (PKT circle traps and such), PKT2 can kill him as well. However, DK can also reliably kill DDD and DDD:DK is +4, soooo yeah.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well yeah but the chance of that happening before DDD gets CG > dtilt or CG/bair > gimp is pretty low

and the risk/reward on the grab to get the back throw would be horrendous a lot of the time

 

[bubbaking]

Hey, I never said that Ness will be killing DDD before DDD kills him first. I still think this MU is a +3. I'm just saying, Ness does have his ways of killing DDD.

Also, if Ness is quick on his toes he can dair meteor DDD off the ledge while he's getting up and he can also PK Fire him while he's at/getting to the ledge. If DDD gets PKF pillared, then it's a fairly easy dair meteor, and DDD's probably going to have to upB back, earning himself a PKT2 to the face.

And yes, this is true:

the risk/reward on the grab to get the back throw would be horrendous a lot of the time

 

[Luco]

You could try Shaky vs. Seibrik at WABA, Grim.

Also, it's curious that Yoshi was taken down to 0 for the reason that Ness 'excels at avoiding grabs' and none of his other MUs that are dependent on CGs were lol. <3

Obviously not Marth at the very least: He has a bunch of other stuff on Ness... >.>

 

[bubbaking]

Ness vs D3 MU Discussion in case you're interested.

Here were RedX's thoughts on the MU. I bolded the parts that pertained to spacing and priority:

General Things:

Spacing is really really important in this MU (obviously), and approaching safely can be quite a challenge with D3's enormous grab range and u-tilt while he's grounded and u-air, d-air and b-air while he's in the air. My personal way of dealing with this MU is to play very defensively and never over commit to anything unless D3's made a mistake or you've baited him to commit and read it properly. Usually I do this with very carefully spaced f-airs and perhaps a b-air or n-air if the opportunity presents itself, but I don't like to rely on these as much. Given the the consequences of getting grabbed and the other out-spacing options D3 has on Ness in nearly all situations, Ness has no choice but to go fully defensive against any good D3 imo. Tbh I play this matchup differently against each D3 and I usually do this one on the fly with no solidly defined gameplay style in mind as a result. Imo it takes a lot of adaptation to overcome this MU, but with patience and precision it can be done.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't know, I didn't get the same impression reading that post that you did.

He seemed to imply that while you can't haphazardly approach, Ness does have the tools to have a spacing battle with DDD

the risk/reward is just always going to be heavily in DDD's favour

 

[MintyFlesh]

You don't have to be good at a game to understand it, and besides, you totally missed the point of the original conversation. Either you weren't there for it, or you just missed it. We were talking about how 'dumb' Marvel is and how bad certain mechanics of it were. I was saying that I beat people who are much better than me at Marvel by using stupid mechanics. The point was that if a single mechanic lets a 'scrub' beat actual legit players, then there's something wrong with the game.

Edit: And I'd like to see myself as a mid-level Marvel player. In my book, mid-level = scrub. It doesn't make any difference unless you're making money. I don't care who you are or how good you claim to be. If you aren't rackin' in the dough, then you're a scrub. Notice how I never said that scrubs can't have a voice or that they should be ignored or that they can't understand play that's better than theirs, because that simply isn't true. However, the fact still remains that they are indeed "scrubs".

Edit 2: It's like how I said Minty sucks at Melee because I beat him consistently and I 3-1/3-0 him during our competitive sets. I know I suck at Melee, so if I suck, then he definitely sucks. However, I know I understand high-level Melee play and he probably does too. Still, we both suck until we actually bring results.



First off, even at mid-range (out of grab range), ftilt is easily PS'd, and then it's not safe anymore. Secondly, the hilt hitbox of ftilt actually sets up for grab so it's a good mix-up, especially when you're trying to catch spot-dodges.



This doesn't change anything because Pikachu still wins a bunch of MUs due to CG'ing them to death. Also, tech-skill does not, in any way, denote 'difficulty' in the entirety of the term. MK can be pretty technical and I'd argue that he's a whole ton easier than a bunch of other less technical chars. It's like saying in Melee, Falco is more difficult than Samus or Luigi because he's "more technical". That's just a bunch of BS. Tech skill does not make a character difficult. How hard it is to take advantage of his strengths and minimize his weaknesses is what makes a character "difficult".

Tech skill is just 'how well can you press a bunch of buttons in order and in a certain rhythmic and timely fashion.' Pikachu being "technical" is not solely what makes him hard to play. It adds to it, but there's so much more than that.



My response to this statement has already been made:

Why don't I see more 'pocket DDDs' doing successfully in bracket? He has a pretty good MU spread on all the chars below him and he's got some key advantages on a few above him. If people really want their money, I should see people whippin' him out left and right.

grats, you're the friendly king. STOP CALLING ME BAD WHEN YOU'RE NOT BETTER. YOU BEAT ME IN A HANDFUL OF FRIENDLIES, GTFO. TRY HARDER PLEASE

terrible mindset, terrible player

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No you're definitely just bad. Idc about my skill level suck moar noob qqqqq

 

[pidgezero_one]

Rofl @ ness:dedede

My region only has 1 dedede player and it's not even his main?

 

[SoulPech]

What I learned from Fizzle, DDD: Ness is free for DDD because of the Chain Grab and GR releases. Granted, Ness can space with his normal moves, but as soon as DDD gets in, it's almost a free stock. I'll ask him more about that when he comes over today.

 

[infiniteV115]

That sounds a bit contradictory:

'Well yes you can understand a game without being good at it but you have to be good at it for other people to think you have any knowledge of the game.'

*coughcough*

You misinterpreted what I said.
When I said "you have to be able to demonstrate that you actually understand the game at a high level rather than just saying it.", I didn't mean that you have to play at high level.

I meant that you have to show us that you actually understand high level play. You can't just say "I understand high level play" and expect us to believe you, you have to show us.

eg Pierce7d isn't a high level player, but his insight on gameplay that he provides both through posts on the boards as well as through his commentary, it's obvious that he understands high level play without being able to perform as one.

bubbaking was disagreeing with da K.I.D on something related to high-level Marvel gameplay, and then bubba basically tried to give himself credibility by saying "I'm a total scrub at Marvel but I understand high-level play"
If he was actually a high-level player, we'd know that he understands high level play.
If he isn't (which is the case), he has to show daKID that he knows what he's talking about. He can't just say "I understand high level play", anybody can say that.

Also @ DDD:Ness, Red X is definitely a good Ness player and definitely a credible source on a lot of Ness-related ****, but yeah as pidgezero_one said there's only 1 DDD player from our region (fyi it's Poke aka 1PokeMastr) and not only is he not even a DDD main, he also almost never uses DDD (though I suppose the only times he DOES use it are vs Red X or Will, so maybe Red X has more experience in the MU than I think he does)
But even so, it means Red X has experience against 0 DDD mains and 1 DDD secondary/tertiary.

That isn't to say that you shouldn't trust what he says, but if his opinions are conflicting with those of other Ness players who have experience against better and/or more DDD mains, you should probably give their opinions more weight.

Also it seems like DDD gimps Ness fairly well. Pummel release offstage puts Ness in a pretty bad position.

 

[bubbaking]

grats, you're the friendly king. STOP CALLING ME BAD WHEN YOU'RE NOT BETTER. YOU BEAT ME IN A HANDFUL OF FRIENDLIES, GTFO. TRY HARDER PLEASE

terrible mindset, terrible player

Wow, you must have gotten really pissed when I called you out on that stream. Here I am, visiting Stony Brook to give you ample chance to 'regain your honor' and even going so far as to host a Melee and P:M tournament, just for you , and you don't even want a re-match? Ftr, I 3-1/3-0'd you in competitive sets for PR positions. Don't try to belittle what was done just 'cause you got your butt handed to you. You suck at Melee and every time you come back with that same exact topic, I will just say the same exact thing until you actually prove otherwise. Get over it already.

That isn't to say that you shouldn't trust what he says, but if his opinions are conflicting with those of other Ness players who have experience against better and/or more DDD mains, you should probably give their opinions more weight.

Well, don't you worry about that. Red X's opinions pretty much summed up the general consensus on that thread. In fact, his post was probably one of the more opportunistic ones (maybe 'cause he refuses to switch off of Ness).

Also it seems like DDD gimps Ness fairly well. Pummel release offstage puts Ness in a pretty bad position.

Every time DDD grabs Ness near the ledge, it's a potential gimp. Grab release works well, but DDD can just dthrow or side throw Ness and it puts him in a bad position. Dthrow puts Ness at or beneath the ledge. Dthrow > ftilt is a true combo, but if DDD delays the ftilt, he can try to eat Ness's DJ with it. Along those same lines, Ness has to be extremely careful when recovering low to avoid dtilt. That crap just sends him flying away at a low trajectory and if he loses his second jump to it, he's in a super bad position. Even ignoring all these things, DDD can just pressure Ness offstage with bair after a side throw.

Edit: IIRC, my post on that thread basically said that DDD can win this MU with just three moves: dthrow, bair, and dtilt. They're literally all he needs. Dthrow CGs and sets up gimps. Bair stuffs most of Ness's spacing game and it gimps. Dtilt can kill Ness off of the GR and it gimps. Solid +3, IMO.

 

[Delta-cod]

You could try Shaky vs. Seibrik at WABA, Grim.

Also, it's curious that Yoshi was taken down to 0 for the reason that Ness 'excels at avoiding grabs' and none of his other MUs that are dependent on CGs were lol. <3

Obviously not Marth at the very least: He has a bunch of other stuff on Ness... >.>

Well, Yoshi doesn't really have a lot of other stuff on Ness, lol. We force him to approach, sorta...

If Ness were super easy to grab we'd easily win, because GR > Usmash 4 or 5 times and then GR > UAir for the kill.

 

[Shaky]

GR > Usmash doesn't work on Ness.

 

[Scatz]

Tsk. Delta you should know these things by now. Only Uair works on Ness from a GR.

 

[Delta-cod]

GR > Usmash doesn't work on Ness.

Tsk. Delta you should know these things by now. Only Uair works on Ness from a GR.

?

I've been landing them since forever. Have the Nesses I've played just not done some sort of simple action to avoid it?

 

[Pikabunz]

GR > Usmash does work! Slush does it to me when I use Ness. Also, I just frame tested it.

 

[Shaky]

Poltergust tried it on me several times and he failed 9/10 times... I guess he was really bad at it then.

 

[Delta-cod]

You have to kinda delay the Usmash because Ness is too high if you do it as fast as possible. The end of Ness's GR animation has him sink down a little bit, which is when Usmash can hit him.

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ This, I do it constantly to Rockmix, you just gotta delay your usmash a bit, otherwise Ness doesnt drop low enough to get hit and you whiff it.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I land the up smashes as well @_@ Is there frame data that can definitely confirm though?

Nvm just saw Pikabunz post.

 

[John12346]

Remember that time you argued semantics with something I said? lol

I thought John# quit Brawl for Marvel

How the heck did you find out I play Marvel lmao

Also I kinda just quit Brawl mainly due to lack of interest/money, but I still do keep up with my gameplay when the time arises for it. I'm not really into any competitive Marvel scenes either for similar reasons, but I am trying to stay on top of my game there, similar to Brawl.

He did? Well, that's funny 'cause he SUCKS at Marvel! I go even with him and I'm a super scrub.

Dangit bubba my 6 against your 2 isn't even >___<

Let's go first to 15 next time we meet, *taskmaster voice* I've gotta show you all my new moves

Also... >___> quit backtalking my ability in Brawl, I still follow these threads, but I figure now's a good of time as any to bring it up. When I play in the club(and I'm almost certain this is a natural response to friendlies), I tend to purposely commit to unsafe options or experimental stuff like that in a few of those matches. I'm not bashing your ability to play(I defo recognize you're a league above everyone else), and I'm really trying not to sound harsh, but I'm quite a bit better than you're making me out to be in Brawl, and I figure the same phenomenon occurs for you when you're vs.ing me in Melee or P:M, aka why I'm able to get out those VERY FEW wins against you every rare once in a while. Once again, I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but please... tone it down.
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OH UH, on topic, Yoshi's one crazy sucka. I'd like to say he should move up, but... I can't confidently say he's better than Sheik... what to do...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You tried to get me into Marvel for like 5 minutes haha

 

[John12346]

But yeah, I didn't really quit Brawl for Marvel, I just... kinda quit... idk

You tried to get me into Marvel for like 5 minutes haha

Right right, I tried to convert you a while back...

All must join the convent of the Numbers

 

[Luco]

OH UH, on topic, Yoshi's one crazy sucka. I'd like to say he should move up, but... I can't confidently say he's better than Sheik... what to do...

Move sheik up before you move yoshi? Or make E tier one spot larger?

 

[RaptorTEC]

I think Yoshi has more going for him results wise recently. Or maybe I'm just biased.

 

[Luco]

I think Yoshi has more going for him results wise recently. Or maybe I'm just biased.

I think we all are to some extent... though I've noticed some low mids doing better than other mids myself.

 

[bubbaking]

Dangit bubba my 6 against your 2 isn't even >___<

You're taking a (inaccurate) record from a session we had after I hadn't played for over a month while you'd been playing nearly all day for every day straight? OK, fine! You should be embarrassed for losing just a single game to my solo Task. For the record, before my stroke-related absence, I was going pretty even with you once I replaced Hawk with Akuma. Shame on you for losing to a stroke victim.

Not to mention you own the game and were practicing all summer while I don't and kinda just learned how to play whenever I could come down to the club.

"You fight like an amateur, chump!"

Besides, you know my heart is in Skullgirls and SSF IV: AE 2012 anyway, where I definitely win more in SF and we definitely go even in SG (even though you also own both of those games and I don't).

Let's go first to 15 next time we meet, *taskmaster voice* I've gotta show you all my new moves

'Amateur. You're in for a world of hurt!!!"

Also... >___> quit backtalking my ability in Brawl, I still follow these threads, but I figure now's a good of time as any to bring it up. When I play in the club(and I'm almost certain this is a natural response to friendlies), I tend to purposely commit to unsafe options or experimental stuff like that in a few of those matches. I'm not bashing your ability to play(I defo recognize you're a league above everyone else), and I'm really trying not to sound harsh, but I'm quite a bit better than you're making me out to be in Brawl, and I figure the same phenomenon occurs for you when you're vs.ing me in Melee or P:M, aka why I'm able to get out those VERY FEW wins against you every rare once in a while. Once again, I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but please... tone it down.

Toned down, although I've already stated several times that you're a really good Brawl player, so I don't see where you got the impression that I was "backtalking your ability in Brawl."

OH UH, on topic, Yoshi's one crazy sucka. I'd like to say he should move up, but... I can't confidently say he's better than Sheik... what to do...

Well, you know, if a character is good but everyone else is better, then he should stay where he is. Plain and simple. You could perhaps extend tiers, but just realizing that a character is good isn't reason enough to move him up.

 

[Iota]

Yoshi will move up when he gets a real shield.

 

[bubbaking]

Does 'parrying' exist in Brawl? No, parrying is not PSing.

 

[infiniteV115]

Then what is parrying

 

[Iota]

I'm not sure what parrying is in fighter terms. What is it exactly, is it similar to clashing?

 

[Delta-cod]

It was basically power shielding with Yoshi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOER1_Rl7Yk

He does it here, seen when Yoshi kinda just eats an attack. Best noticed at the end.

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLRJ4jCBeI for parrying in Melee.