Official BBR Tier List v7

[Luco]

I don't think I've lost in that match-up for a year

Haha Australia

Oh? Ikill's snake is a bit scary... he just doesn't give a... well... yeah... when playing you. Everyone gets damaged to an unbelievable point and he still wins. >.>

Aside from that I feel as though Snake, at least in Australia has always been a 'meh, okay' MU for me to play.

 

[-LzR-]

Why can't every region have different rulesets, be happy on their own, and challenge players visiting said regions.... just like in 2009?

This so much. When you travel to another area you play the game like they play it and when they travel to your area they play it the way you play it. I hate it when people whine all the ****ing time about PS2 being legal and everything. Actually I'd like more stage and the bat gone. The sooner the better. I could do this any moment I wanted, but I just don't care anymore.

 

[Luco]

Personally I like pictochat and I think our region allows it.

Also, I love PS2. And brinstar. And a bunch of other stuff.

So yeah, to each their own, right?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No one is arguing that it'll be a huge problem solving thing though.

I'm glad you finally spouted that delicious short essay, Supermodel. People, especially TOs, NEED to read and understand what they're doing not only to their community, but the community that extends far beyond their own borders.

I want to point out though that I think it's less of a moral failing in the community and just a lack of critical thinking about the subject. Like, anyone who thinks about this for a minute realizes how wrong it all is.... right?

The Smash community simply does not react with the kind of fervor it needs to with regards to this kind of ****.

Non-necessary splits need to go. Forever. If you're top 2, play your GF set unless the venue is closing or something, and there should be some kind of penalty for collusion. There's this weird idea in the brawl community that low-level players just aren't there and it's so wrong. Low and mid-level players put money in the pot expecting to lose but expecting to be a part of something. It hurts them and everyone when top-level players split or otherwise collude, split their money and leave. When you take money from a pot you have a responsibility to the players who put money in that pot to try your hardest and play it out. Bottom line.

"Skill" seeding needs to go. Forever. I've gone over this already at length, but it's like this: when the tournament starts, unless your tournament is part of a series that has kept track of results over time, you need to assume you don't know how any player in the room is going to do. If you don't like that, keep track of your results and seed by Elo. And please keep players away from the brackets.

And MK? Saying he "needs" to go is pretty assumptive, so let's try this a different way. Pandering to good players needs to go. Forever. If they don't come, they don't come. Someone else will rise to take their place. It's time to stop paying for their plane tickets, housing, and most importantly, guaranteeing them additional money from the pot for attending (looking at you, Australia ). It's time to stop changing rules at their request and letting them control rule sets. And going back to my second point, it's definitely time to stop guaranteeing 9th place for walking in the door.

I definitely want to see a return of the "card" system. That was an excellent rule. Seriously.

:|

 

[-LzR-]

I agree with all of the points above. I don't really need to explain them since SFP already did that. And if the top2 were split and I was the TO, I would just give all the money to the 3rd just to be a ****.

 

[Naridax]

That isn't going to happen.

I never said it would.

What exactly people look for when comparing MK-legal and MK-banned data?
Money earned? That's a silly american mentallity where money means everything.... When in this case it would actually prove nothing.
As I see it there is no way to compare, both are different metagames, and none can objectively be proven as beter.

Spoiler

Probably a poll of "which one you liked the most?" could make a difference?

Character diversity at the top level? Some people wouldn't care about that, because the same top tier characters under Meta Knight will probably dominate. But other people might make a big deal out of it, since it's not Meta Knight dominating at least.

Why can't every region have different rulesets, be happy on their own, and challenge players visiting said regions.... just like in 2009?

I don't know. Some people just don't like the idea of having different rule sets anymore.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think MK shouldn't be banned but I share Cassio's sentiment that there's no harm in hosting occasional MK-banned tournaments. It is a different kind of competition to regular singles, just like doubles is - just in a different way. Depending on the region it may be enough of a change to make it an interesting competition to have from time to time [Atl-North for example]. Universally banning a character that isn't broken is a dumb idea though and the fact that the idea never managed to find a majority of supporters for a longer period of time tells us lots about how pointless the idea is.

Personally, I think there are a few ruleset changes that could be made to improve the game. It's mainly about weakening the unreasonably overrated "CP system" that buffs and nerfs a bunch of characters in an arbitrary manner. I think a distinction between "starter" and "counterpick" stage is superfluous. It's just a random addition that doesn't improve the game. Why not just strike stages from the whole legal stage list? Would make a lot more sense than acting as if one stage was "more neutral" than another. I also think you should only be able to CP either stage OR character but not both at the same time. I don't see why the loser should have that much of an advantage and think this would make people see that MK doesn't break this "counterpick system" but that it's inherently inbalanced in the first place.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Universally banning a character that isn't broken is a dumb idea though and the fact that the idea never managed to find a majority of supporters for a longer period of time tells us lots about how pointless the idea is.

Have you even read the other posts in this thread tho

 

[Luco]

And MK? Saying he "needs" to go is pretty assumptive, so let's try this a different way. Pandering to good players needs to go. Forever. If they don't come, they don't come. Someone else will rise to take their place. It's time to stop paying for their plane tickets, housing, and most importantly, guaranteeing them additional money from the pot for attending (looking at you, Australia ). It's time to stop changing rules at their request and letting them control rule sets. And going back to my second point, it's definitely time to stop guaranteeing 9th place for walking in the door.

I definitely want to see a return of the "card" system. That was an excellent rule. Seriously.

:|

Hey, I don't know of us doing that, so it can't be a recent issue.

Also I think paying plane tickets, all that stuff (except for a guarantee pot bonus obv.) is fine personally. I mean, sometimes people want people at their tournaments because they are friends or something and they're just willing to pay travel fares.

I do still agree with you about keeping your rules as 'your' rules and that kind of stuff. :D

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Have you even read the other posts in this thread tho

Yes, I have but most of them are pointless to respond to.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Australian scene paid for M2k's accomodations and guaranteed him a bunch of money from the pot some time ago regardless of how well he would do. he won anyway, still skeezy.

 

[Luco]

Oh that was ages ago, i think... It didn't happen when I was around. I mean, i'd never stop talking if I met a top player in real life, you know... :-P

 

[Seagull Joe]

Is MT yet?

 

[Shaya]

Australian scene paid for M2k's accomodations and guaranteed him a bunch of money from the pot some time ago regardless of how well he would do. he won anyway, still skeezy.

He wasn't guaranteed any money from the pot no matter how well he did.
It was just pretty darn obvious to everyone he would win everything.

Players in the smash community donated money for his flights (with two people giving over $600-700 each to cover a majority of it).

 

[clowsui]

Universally banning a character that isn't broken is a dumb idea though and the fact that the idea never managed to find a majority of supporters for a longer period of time tells us lots about how pointless the idea is.

This part of your argument suffers from faulty logic as it presupposes that the only reason that an idea is only worth something with majority support and also presupposes that the manifestation of the idea is only contingent upon whether or not you own preference/feelings towards the subject. Tons of TOs didn't run MK ban because the largest tournaments did not ban MK, so jumping from that point they (legitimately or otherwise) rationalized their own non-ban decision. Or, if you'd like an even smaller level example, if a scene does not care about banning MK either way, but a neighboring scene has MK legal tournaments, and the two scenes interact a lot, both scenes are likely to run MK legal. I agree that both MK ban and MK legal hosting is legitimate and there's no harm in hosting both formats but to misrepresent MK ban as a format and to say that its lack of widespread appeal is evident isn't fair imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tons of TOs didn't run MK ban because the largest tournaments did not ban MK, so jumping from that point they (legitimately or otherwise) rationalized their own non-ban decision.

to say that its lack of widespread appeal is evident isn't fair imo.

Sounds contradictory to me. The former quote clearly implies that the decision to ban MK has no chance of spreading because the opposition was and is stronger. The second quote says that it's unfair to claim that the opposition is stronger. Which one is true now?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Gheb is stupid because he said the same thing I said about stages, except like three pages late.

Naridax is stupid because he is assuming theoretical results in an mk banned environment even though the few actual results we have, (WHOBO) contradict his assumptions.

Clow is stupid because... No wait that post was hella smart. Kudos Chi.

Anybody at this point that gives m2k money for anything is stupid because that dude has a terrible entitlement complex.

SfP is stupid because.... No wait, everything he said has been spot on too. Carry on sir.

Edit:
Gheb is stupid again because he doesnt understand the concept of "Apex is bigger than every tournament that everyone is going to in order to prepare for Apex" not being the same thing as "Apex is bigger than all of those tournaments, Combined."

 

[Naridax]

Naridax is stupid because he is assuming theoretical results in an mk banned environment even though the few actual results we have, (WHOBO) contradict his assumptions.

You misunderstand my assumption. My assumption is that the top tier characters will still dominate in a developed MK-banned metagame. There are no actual results of tournaments from that kind of metagame.

 

[SoulPech]

Hi I'm Jimmy.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You misunderstand my assumption. My assumption is that the top tier characters will still dominate in a developed MK-banned metagame. There are no actual results of tournaments from that kind of metagame.

If your assumption is true, that still leaves us with a bigger pool of viable characters than we currently have. Right now, if you aren't playing MK or ICs, your chances aren't that hot. Falco, Snake, Diddy, and Olimar have a chance too, but eliminating MK gives us a bigger pool of dominant characters and makes high tier characters more viable as well.

I should point out that while I personally think that's a good thing, it's actually a completely subjective call. MK taking all of our money, having completely broken attributes, multiple rule adjustments just to make sure he doesn't win just for picking RC and running to the edge? That stuff isn't really debatable but whether or not a larger pool of characters is "better" is a subjective call.

Also worth noting is that in many MK-banned tournaments, Diddy Kong seems to do really, really well... but we also had a Ganon win an MK-banned tourament, so...

I drew the line on MK personally when I realized how the rules we drew up to nerf him affected other characters. LGL limits Pit's options for example. 50 should be plenty, but franklly it doesn't matter... if you lose to Pit because he grabbed the ledge 76 times, you got outplayed because his ledge game is far, far easier to handle.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Okay, people talking about APEX getting its huge attendance pool because it's MK Banned need to pass me some of whatever they're smoking.

If Alex Strife said that APEX 2014 was going to be MK Banned, it would still be huge. Still be the biggest tournament smash has because it's APEX. Do you know why being APEX has that sort of pull? Because of Alex goddamn Strife (and his team of APEX TOs who I also appreciate but will not continually mention because it's a pain in the *** to type). I cannot STAND his view on the rule set (although, to be fair, it is a **** ton better than the SKTAR one and the fact that such an alternative exists makes me feel better that we aren't seeing it), but I cannot fault the man for what he has done for his tournament series and, consequently, the community as a whole.

He has run the tournament series successfully and has an established reputation for running large scale events, but he hasn't sat on it. He continues actively searching to improve his event which is already the best organized circuit Brawl, and likely Smash as a whole, has ever seen, bar none (MLG included). He's constantly advertising, constantly searching for new sponsors, constantly seeking out those international players and even NA big names (see how he's supported Ken's attempt to make it to APEX for melee), and he's gotten good at it by now. He has set-up in a sweet spot with the multi-game national to pull in casuals and dual-game players and has basically every advantage a tournament host could want and he's got all of that for a reason. It didn't just fall into his lap.

As it stands, for whatever rule change you want to pursue, be it MK, stage list, stage striking, LGL, CP system, items, number of stocks, or what have you, Alex Strife's vote probably adds up to about 200 of your's. Of course, this doesn't apply to everyone. Some people have more considerable sway, but the APEX rule set is going to pressure others into following suit and I admire that. If you want to see a change, you can try to and heads by convincing APEX to run the change or you need to step up your own game and get enough high-profile events run with your rule change throughout the year that you can point to and sway the supermajority of smashers (not just 51%), which coincidentally puts pressure on APEX.

Personally, it's my goal to reach a point where I can make a stand in an emerging E-Sports world (it's a career choice I think is possible with enough time, work, and a little luck), but I'm years behind. That's why I follow what's worked to see what I can learn.

So yeah, APEX is huge, but it wouldn't be stopped if it chose to ban MK. Instead, in all likelihood, the majority NA would conform. But anyway, that's the end of my rant.







People talking about how this rule set is done need to step up their ****ing game.

I see people talking about PS2. *****, you can run PS2. There ain't jack **** stopping you.

I see people talking about Norfair. You want Norfair? Run it (don't run it in MK legal because it's really stupid then because running around with Tornado on the top two platforms that only 2-3 characters can even begin to deal with). Run two stage bans so you can explain the addition doesn't hurt anyone and see how it's received after a couple tournaments.

On that subect, you want two stage bans? Run it. Find your 13 stage list and run two stage bans. It's a ****ing wonderful idea when you have over 11 stages.

Over 11? Why didn't I say 12? Well, you can't FloSS (Full Stage Strike) with an even number. Hell, you running APEX's stage list? STILL run FlSS. The biggest complaint is time added to the striking stage, but I can say from firsthand experience that it doesn't add to the time at all. You're still going to have the "SVille or BF?" games that happen and you're still going to have the people who take ten years thinking about their last strike. If you do it right (print your stage list out about 15 times and tape it to the side of the table), then it doesn't add any noticeable time.

And don't tell me you can't host a tournament. I swear to God that that is the single lamest john I hear in this smash community. It is not hard at all. If you're old enough that your mother won't care about you running an event with 20 guys there, then you have no good reason not to look into hosting events if you want to complain about any rules. You forfeit the right to complain if you don't do something about it and it's so stupid easy to start hosting locals. PM me, I'll walk you through it.

Once more, if you want to complain, your goal needs to be to run something like this eventually. We don't need eight new APEXs, but we do need more TOs and less people complaining with their thumb up their ***.

/advocating action

 

[da K.I.D.]

As a guy who ran an alternative ruleset tournament, i can vouch for pretty much everything Ryker said.

SPIT DAT TRUUF RYKER

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Da kid is stupid because he calls people stupid that are like a million times smarter than him.

 

[Naridax]

Hey, KID, if I make posts using really verbose, unclear sentences, will you think I'm smart too? D:

. . . That stuff isn't really debatable but whether or not a larger pool of characters is "better" is a subjective call.

Yeah, I said that earlier:

Character diversity at the top level? Some people wouldn't care about that, because the same top tier characters under Meta Knight will probably dominate. But other people might make a big deal out of it, since it's not Meta Knight dominating at least.

I also think that character diversity is good. For me, the game is more fun, but who cares what I think is fun? And does fun even matter?

 

[Espy Rose]

It's a good thing none of them are here Gheb, or he'd look awful silly right now.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Most of the people that post here are pretty smart. No need to go throwing insults around.

I wish I still had fun trolling.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Gheb and Goggles are really saying "Seagull needs to be able to temp ban people from threads."

Grim and Bubba would be the first to be temp banned from this thread.

Carry on clowns.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb and Goggles are really saying "Seagull needs to be able to temp ban people from threads."

Grim and Bubba would be the first to be temp banned from this thread.

Carry on clowns.

I cosign all of this.

 

[Life]

Yes, let's ban people we don't like to argue with

I would consider hosting some stuff because my area kinda needs it, just not sure where.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Not being able to obtain a venue is one of the few reasons that you shouldn't be able to host a tournament. However, I've only ever found one city with a population over 200 that I couldn't find a venue in. You can almost certainly find a venue. It's whether you can obtain it. I know a couple places you could look if you want to shoot me a PM.

In related news, someone else actually PMed me looking for help figuring out how to set-up a tournament. That's freaking awesome. I really expected everyone to just sit with their thumb up their ***.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

There's no real point in me hosting tournaments here, they'd be straight out ignored.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Frankly I'm afraid to host a tournament a lot of people might come to. There's a lot of potential for messin' **** up and I have social anxiety and nervousness issues to begin with. I'm not the guy to be hosting a large event. I have too many personal limitations.

With that said I've often wished I could run one.

 

[Raziek]

But the fact of the matter is that theres really no excuse for there to be less than 10 legal stages in a brawl tournament. Also, starters and counterpics are stupid in this game, because, most of the "neutral" stages we have now are certain characters best stages and already polarize matchups.
Falco, Diddy, ICs, DDD on FD
Marth on battlefield.
and so on.

People still believe this garbage?

Do you even lift watch Marth play?

It's good, but not polarizing, holy crap.

Brinstar 4 ****ing life.
Also Pokemon Stadium 2.

*brofist*

Co-Signing everything Ryker said.

 

[fkacyan]

Most of the people that post here are pretty smart. No need to go throwing insults around.

I wish I still had fun trolling.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh wow, my sides actually hurt

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Frankly I'm afraid to host a tournament a lot of people might come to. There's a lot of potential for messin' **** up and I have social anxiety and nervousness issues to begin with. I'm not the guy to be hosting a large event. I have too many personal limitations.

With that said I've often wished I could run one.

Get friends you trust. If you're running a large scale event, you probably want community support from your region regardless of who you are. We're running a fairly large one and I am one of eight players listed as a TO. For a local, get a loud friend and tell him to shout for you and then get another friend and the three of you manage the bracket and keep people playing. It REALLY isn't hard and after a couple of events, you lose the nerves.

That said, you're gonna **** up. But odds are good no one will really care that much and even if they do, just fix it. Nothing goes right if you don't try, so don't fear what could go wrong. Just repsect it and deal with it if it happens.

 

[SoulPech]

Get friends you trust. If you're running a large scale event, you probably want community support from your region regardless of who you are. We're running a fairly large one and I am one of eight players listed as a TO. For a local, get a loud friend and tell him to shout for you and then get another friend and the three of you manage the bracket and keep people playing. It REALLY isn't hard and after a couple of events, you lose the nerves.

That said, you're gonna **** up. But odds are good no one will really care that much and even if they do, just fix it. Nothing goes right if you don't try, so don't fear what could go wrong. Just repsect it and deal with it if it happens.

This guy. this guy gets it

 

[deepseadiva]

This is so much better than Jigglypuff discussion, oh my god.

 

[SoulPech]

This is so much better than Jigglypuff discussion, oh my god.

There's nothing better than a jigglypuff discussion...

 

[Flayl]

Don't know what SfP plans to do during the vacations, but otherwise let's just say he doesn't have to worry about large scale events. Plus me and another dude do most of the TO'ing around here anyway

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Flayl I don't have any immediate plans but I have thought of trying put together people might travel to Portugal for. This is nothing definite or even worth talking about right now because I'm not sure I even want to do it.