Official BBR Tier List v7

[Life]

Not being able to obtain a venue is one of the few reasons that you shouldn't be able to host a tournament. However, I've only ever found one city with a population over 200 that I couldn't find a venue in. You can almost certainly find a venue. It's whether you can obtain it. I know a couple places you could look if you want to shoot me a PM.

In related news, someone else actually PMed me looking for help figuring out how to set-up a tournament. That's freaking awesome. I really expected everyone to just sit with their thumb up their ***.

Since PGH's main Brawl TO is possibly leaving soon, I've been making overtures at him (as in not you) about learning how to TO. So there's that. A friend was talking about hosting in Youngstown (which isn't overly far away), so there's also that.

Guess I have some anxiety, I dunno. But I can work through that, just takes a while.

 

[ViperGold42]

Since PGH's main Brawl TO is possibly leaving soon, I've been making overtures at him (as in not you) about learning how to TO. So there's that. A friend was talking about hosting in Youngstown (which isn't overly far away), so there's also that.

Guess I have some anxiety, I dunno. But I can work through that, just takes a while.

well if there is one being hoested in Youngstown be sure I will be there.

 

[AmKhokar]

Leedle

This part of your argument suffers from faulty logic as it presupposes that the only reason that an idea is only worth something with majority support and also presupposes that the manifestation of the idea is only contingent upon whether or not you own preference/feelings towards the subject.

Okay I had to read this a few times to actually understand what you were saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically just saying that his argument is invalid because it assumes an idea is only worth something if it's held by the majority. That second part...honestly would make equal sense to me if it were in a foreign language.
Majority may not mean something is right, but it should be factored into the decision; if the majority of people who form and run a community consistently contest one of its rules, then their opinion should be factored in. SSB players, TOs, analysts, etc. are the reason tournaments even exist, so it would make very little sense not to factor the majority opinion into the way the community works. I'm not arguing for either side of the MK legal / ban, but rather against the notion that the majority opinion shouldn't play a big role and the notion that loading sentences with big words makes them more valid.

 

[ViperGold42]

Okay I had to read this a few times to actually understand what you were saying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're basically just saying that his argument is invalid because it assumes an idea is only worth something if it's held by the majority. That second part...honestly would make equal sense to me if it were in a foreign language.
Majority may not mean something is right, but it should be factored into the decision; if the majority of people who form and run a community consistently contest one of its rules, then their opinion should be factored in. SSB players, TOs, analysts, etc. are the reason tournaments even exist, so it would make very little sense not to factor the majority opinion into the way the community works. I'm not arguing for either side of the MK legal / ban, but rather against the notion that the majority opinion shouldn't play a big role and the notion that loading sentences with big words makes them more valid.

then should we not speak out against what we hate?

 

[Luco]

IMO I thought it was obvious by this stage that the people who don't want MK banned (like me) are just too afraid to speak out because they'll get whooped by everyone else or just turn the thread in to flame wars... but when MK IS banned it turns out that they are actually the majority lol.

And I'd like to host but I doubt i'd have the money to do it, etc etc. >.>

 

[ViperGold42]

IMO I thought it was obvious by this stage that the people who don't want MK banned (like me) are just too afraid to speak out because they'll get whooped by everyone else or just turn the thread in to flame wars... but when MK IS banned it turns out that they are actually the majority lol.

And I'd like to host but I doubt i'd have the money to do it, etc etc. >.>

yeah it turns out today we are not allowed to criticize something at the risk of getting flamed to hell. They are hypocrites.

 

[Luco]

Also i doubt Clowsui was making that post with the intention of making everyone confused and claiming he was right because no-one understands. I don't claim to have an awful lot of experience but that just doesn't seem like Clowsui to me.

 

[Dre89]

What's the difference between banning MK and banning ubers in Pokemon?

-A lot more of the cast are viable with them banned.

-Majority of the community wants them banned.

-They have virtually no weaknesses in the tiers below them, and are always the best choice no matter what the opposition.

-Another, broader set of characters will dominate with them gone.

So do people who want MK legal think Ubers should be legal too?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I really wouldn't go as far as comparing with other games.
Ubers (as I see it, even though I am not very aware of the Pokémon metagame) are a team that covers many options; they can not be beaten except by other Uber team who wins a RPS game and gets an effective attack. Once again, I'm not too familiar with Pokémon, and I personally see that game being broken by many things anyway.
Meta Knight is not unbeatable. He will have advantage on 95% of the situations, but most top and high tiers (and some mids) are not too disadvantaged to be just beaten by him without being actually outplayed or outsmarted.

Community's input, however, is a completly different issue.

 

[deepseadiva]

What's the difference between banning MK and banning ubers in Pokemon?

One game has 650 characters and the other has 40.

 

[ViperGold42]

its just 1 character people. Pokemon has over 15 I think.

 

[Dre89]

Kyo- That's not any different. Non-ubers still get used in Ubers for situational advantages, just like high tiers against MK.

One game has 650 characters and the other has 40.

What's your point?

They still both render a large portion of the cast unviable. What difference does it make how many characters it is, the percentages are still roughly the same.

Also, even with Ubers banned, a large majority of the 650 Pokemon still aren't viable in OU. Just like how low- bottom tiers still aren't viable with MK banned. So what's the difference?

Also too, RBY only had 81 fully evolved Pokemon, and two of them were sent to ubers. Or is that still too high of a number?

Please explain where your cut-off is, and how it isn't completely arbitrary.

 

[Luco]

I don't play pokemon competitively Dre... do a lot of people use ubers? I mean, I hate the idea of an MK ban mainly because a lot of people have spent time on him and probably really like him as a character. I know I'd hate to be told I couldn't use Lucas, for instance.

I wonder whether people are less fussy with the huge amount of pokemon or there is less of a relative percentage of people playing ubers in pokemon to people playing MK in brawl?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

banning metaknight doesn't all of a sudden make unviable characters become viable though. Pretty much every character who struggles with MK, still struggles just as hard with someone else. Non-viable characters don't all of a sudden become viable, it just makes characters who are already viable just become more viable.

 

[ViperGold42]

I don't play pokemon competitively Dre... do a lot of people use ubers? I mean, I hate the idea of an MK ban mainly because a lot of people have spent time on him and probably really like him as a character. I know I'd hate to be told I couldn't use Lucas, for instance.

I wonder whether people are less fussy with the huge amount of pokemon or there is less of a relative percentage of people playing ubers in pokemon to people playing MK in brawl?

I played Pokemon for amount of time and people just used OU's mostly. People didn't use Ubers unless they asked that they could. But people didn't really complain about Ubers as much as players complain about MK

 

[Dre89]

Private- But the characters they struggle with in turn struggle with another character or stage. That's the difference between MK and the rest of the cast.

Luco- If these MK players were truly talented and deserved their success, they would be able to replicate it with other characters.

You're also not thinking of the countless players who put heaps of time into their main, only to switch to MK because of competitive necessity. Or the countless players that didn't get money they were entitled to because they lost to a broken character.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The word "entitled" does not belong in competitive gaming discussion. You're only entitled to winnings if you won.

 

[Dre89]

The word "entitled" does not belong in competitive gaming discussion. You're only entitled to your winnings if you won.

So you're entitled to winnings if you cheated?

Using MK can be considered a mild form of cheating due to the unfair advantage he gives.

 

[ViperGold42]

So you're entitled to winnings if you cheated?

Using MK can be considered a mild form of cheating due to the unfair advantage he gives.

so how is using the best character cheating? that's like Communist Russia, we all have the same gun, no one wins.

 

[Dre89]

so how is using the best character cheating? that's like Communist Russia, we all have the same gun, no one wins.

So is using Ubers in OU not cheating?

Cheating is basically gaining an unfair advantage. People think that something has to be illegal to be considered cheating, but that's because in most cases all unfair advantages are deemed illegal.

It's just that for whatever reason, the Smash community hasn't deemed this particular advantage illegal.

 

[DMG]

Pokemon is a bit different. Every Pokemon, and Pokemon set, has a counter. What propels Pokemon into Ubers is on how difficult it is to counter them/how much usage they see. A big difference between MK and Pokemon is that there are limitations and constraints in play. You are limited by 4 slots and won't know what item/set they have beforehand. You have to specifically tailor counters by set and item quite often and take into account the possible variations they could have as well. If a Pokemon has 2 drastically different types of counters, you throw 1 onto your team, and it happens to be the other set you tend to get molested unless you have a universal "backup" say some random scarfed Pokemon or FS Alakazam.


I know where you're trying to go with the analogy, but it's not easy for people unfamiliar with Pokemon. Especially when people see that the solution isn't to "ban" Pokemon but simply create another metagame that allows them to compete. We wouldn't have "MK only" tournaments side events etc. That's what most people would take away from it.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

So you're entitled to winnings if you cheated?

Using MK can be considered a mild form of cheating due to the unfair advantage he gives.

It's not cheating if it's allowed in the rules? Using MK is not cheating in an MK legal tourney so... not sure what point you're trying to make.

 

[DMG]

His point is more along the unfair lines. If Arceus was dropped down to OU, it doesn't matter if he's on the "OU Legal" list it would be obvious he's unfair and overly dominant.


IMO the Pokemon stuff is hard for most people to get into so I'd pick a different tangent.

 

[ViperGold42]

So is using Ubers in OU not cheating?

Cheating is basically gaining an unfair advantage. People think that something has to be illegal to be considered cheating, but that's because in most cases all unfair advantages are deemed illegal.

It's just that for whatever reason, the Smash community hasn't deemed this particular advantage illegal.

unless someone says Ubers and OUs, its all based on what the person wants. unfair would be hacking the game to make the other player lose, Meta Knight was created the way he was and its not cheating, unless you're calling Nintendo pricks.

 

[Dre89]

Yeah, using MK is just as unfair of an advantage as using Ubers in OU, it's just that one practice was deemed illegal.

DMG- That's the thing, Ubers are actually easier to counter than MK. An Uber's one moveset can't cover every threat, yet they're banned.

You can say that Ubers is a meta in its own right and therefore different because no one would want to play MK only tourneys. But remember, Über banning began in RBY, where only two Pokemon got banned, so the bans were never done with a separate meta in mind.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Having Meta Knight legal doesn't centralize the game around a completely different, limited set of skills like ubers do.

I don't think he is as clear-cut banworthy as everyone in here seems to be implying.

 

[ViperGold42]

Yeah, using MK is just as unfair of an advantage as using Ubers in OU, it's just that one practice was deemed illegal.

DMG- That's the thing, Ubers are actually easier to counter than MK. An Uber's one moveset can't cover every threat, yet they're banned.

You can say that Ubers is a meta in its own right and therefore different because no one would want to play MK only tourneys. But remember, Über banning began in RBY, where only two Pokemon got banned, so the bans were never done with a separate meta in mind.

but Uber's stats are BEYOND broken. you're trying to classify a reason why using MK is cheating, I honestly don't see what you're trying to prove here. Nintendo created MK with the move he has for a reason. So if you're saying Meta Knight is cheating then you're saying Nintendo are *******s.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

But MK isn't broken in the same way that an OP pokemon is broken. Like, MK still loses tourneys. Just because MKs always places in the money doesn't mean he never loses. Look at Japan's metagame, two of the most dominant players use ICs and Olimar. In Europe, their metagame is dominated by Marth. Over here, we even have a Pikachu who consistently places, and wins tourneys all the time. Snakes here typically dominate as well. It's not like every tourney just has solo MK next to everyone's name.

 

[Uncle]

The difference between competitive Pokemon (like smogon) and Smash is that Pokemon regularly has "mid-tier" and "low-tier" competitions, essentially. In Brawl, all we ever get is Ubers/OU, with the rare UU or RU/NU tourney sprinkled in. Competitive Pokemon just isn't like competitive fighters, thanks to its turn-based, team-building gameplay where there's a situational counter for EVERYTHING. Oh yeah, and let's not forget that people brought up the fact that the cast is huge.

You can get away with having constant low-tier competition in Pokemon.

In Brawl, there just aren't enough low-tiers to keep things fresh for long.

There is no effective way we can apply smogon's system of segregated metagames to Brawl, in general.

 

[Z'zgashi]

As a competitive pokemon player, you arent understanding the reasoning for tiers in pokemon. The tiers are there so that different pokemon can all see use in competitive play. If it werent for tiers, youd only see Arceus, Rayquaza, Lugia, etc in every game, and other really good pokemon that just arent at that level, would never be used, just straight up because they dont have the stats of legendaries or something of that nature. The tiers in that game are made so that more variety can be seen through competitive play, because that game WASNT DESIGNED TO BE THOROUGHLY BALANCED. If you were to bring up the idea to Nintendo of balancing Pokemon so that Pokemon like Luvdisc could compete with Kyogre, theyd laugh at you. Some Pokemon were straight up DESIGNED to be better, so in order to allow more Pokemon to see use than just the best 20 in the game, they made tiers, allowing for different meta games and more variety. I mean, there are 649 Pokemon, and if it werent for tiers, youd only ever see 20ish different ones in competitive play. The tiers are there to take advantage of the vast amount of Pokemon to choose from to create a team, and to make cool strategies and such. Its completely different than a fighting game, were everyone is meant to be on the same level.

And I dont think people understand, MK isnt so ridiculously ahead of every other character. Is he better than every other character by a noticeable margin? Yes. Does he have the advantage in 95% of situations in this game? Yes. BUT, its not so much that hes in a complete other league or is unbeatable. MK is definitely the best character, but he isnt some unstoppable force that just dominates everything. If he were so dominant, hed win every single tournament, and be the only character in the top placings at nationals, but guess what? MKs lose to other characters all the time. Does MK win more than he loses? Yes, but hes the best character in the game, and in any game, the best characters usually win more often, thats just how it is. Unless MK shows himself to be unbeatable, he shouldnt be banned imo.

 

[| Big D |]

We ll put.

 

[Espy Rose]

MKs don't lose to characters. MK loses to players.

 

[Sinister Slush]

And I dont think people understand, MK isnt so ridiculously ahead of every other character. Is he better than every other character by a noticeable margin? Yes. Does he have the advantage in 95% of situations in this game? Yes. BUT, its not so much that hes in a complete other league or is unbeatable. MK is definitely the best character, but he isnt some unstoppable force that just dominates everything. If he were so dominant, hed win every single tournament, and be the only character in the top placings at nationals, but guess what? MKs lose to other characters all the time. Does MK win more than he loses? Yes, but hes the best character in the game, and in any game, the best characters usually win more often, thats just how it is. Unless MK shows himself to be unbeatable, he shouldnt be banned imo.

MKs don't lose to characters. MK loses to players.

Basically this.

When used at the top level of play, MK is guaranteed top 12 with his face being plastered in the results about 30 or so times in a (example) 80 person tournament.
But when a low leveled player uses MK, he'll most likely lose indefinitely. Even to the worse of characters like a really good Link or for another bad example, a decent Pit player that just keeps MK out with arrows the entire time while Fsmashing whenever he runs back in.

So again, Players are beating mostly low leveled MK mains. You'll never see anything along the lines of someone below R.O.B. to beat a top level MK ever.
And of course, when it comes to Top level players and money... you use the best characters for that. Good examples is like ESAM no longer going full Pika in tournaments, or Lee Martin switching from Lucario to MK.

 

[DMG]

Lee always had a MK though. In fact, the main reason he became a Lucario main was that he had to find another character to use for HOBO 12 which was probably the first or earliest significant event with MK banned. Him switching to MK, even in singles, wasn't that surprising and was more analogous to a co main than a pocket "We're going to RC and I'm gonna CP MK enjoy" lol. Besides he's been done with Brawl forever now.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Was more of just putting down examples, but yeah.

 

[DMG]

A strong example would be like Ally. Because for a long time it was Snake, and MK came into the picture somewhere, and now I'm scared.

 

[AmKhokar]

then should we not speak out against what we hate?

Not at all. Speak out, but don't say a majority opinion means nothing lolololol.

 

[AmKhokar]

so how is using the best character cheating? that's like Communist Russia, we all have the same gun, no one wins.

That's just a really silly point. You're basically saying the playing field shouldn't be even.
It would be better to say "We all have similar guns and those who can use their's best will win".
Again, I don't really take a side on the issue. Meta has advantages over every char and is a great choice vs any opponent, but I don't believe he's excessively OP. Most of his mistakes are much harder to punish, but they're punishable nonetheless.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You'll never see anything along the lines of someone below R.O.B. to beat a top level MK ever.

Good choice of putting below ROB to exclude Ocean beating M2K.

But you forgot about Mekos beating Tyrant at SKtar.

 

[Sinister Slush]

And then they played again and Tyrant won that time.