Official BBR Tier List v7

[Espy Rose]

Snake isn't really a killjoy.

He isn't, but his utilt is.

 

[infiniteV115]

More specifically, his utilt is a killeverything

 

[Espy Rose]

Grenades are also killjoy. And his dthrow. His ftilt. His dash attack.
His heaviness.

Actually, there's a lot of crap that Snake is dumb for.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm more of surprised a Zero suit main doesn't think Snake is a nightmare of a character.
Zero Suit Samus...

 

[Espy Rose]

I wonder how it feels to be hit by not-Ice Climbers with one move and be so, so much closer to getting utilted at 100%.

 

[da K.I.D.]

we have like 5 polls and everyone of the said that the majority wants to ban MK, but the few that dont are either the loudest, the douchiest, or the ones running the event. So he sticks around

 

[Gardex]

I disagree, both sides have about the same amount of morons

 

[Espy Rose]

He never mentioned morons at all though...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The last MK ban had like 70% of the voters calling for the ban. MK is statistically and technically a broken character. Anti-ban gets destroyed in every debate thread either because they can't form an argument that doesn't come down to calling a bunch of people bad. There is no reason he should still be legal.

We kept him because:

1. TOs are afraid of losing big names
2. Japan came and whooped us so we assumed their ruleset made more sense automatically (which is a horrible assumption)
3. Hardcore gamers hate change.

 

[Espy Rose]

You forgot to mention that it was because of one event Japan was coming to.
That only happens once a year.

Despite the many events that happen throughout our own nation.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You forgot to mention that it was because of one event Japan was coming to.
That only happens once a year.

Despite the many events that happen throughout our own nation.

Actually edited my post.

 

[Gardex]

He never mentioned morons at all though...

Loudmouths, douches, morons, etc etc

 

[Espy Rose]

If I didn't know any better, it seems like the finger is being pointed at TOs, SfP. 1 & 2 are entirely on them, and sound utterly ridiculous.
I honestly agree with the sentiment.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If I didn't know any better, it seems like the finger is being pointed at TOs, SfP.
I honestly agree with the sentiment.

I dunno, there are a lot of cool TOs and I don't want to call anyone out, but that's kind of my take.

There are a couple of reasons a TO might not want to ban MK:

1. They're friends with a lot of good players just because of the nature of the job. Most good players play MK. You could also assume some non-MK good players don't want MK banned or just don't really care, which makes it an easier choice. I don't want to call it corruption... it's more like guilt, and peer pressure.

2. Losing big names might make tournaments a riskier bet, and also might mean a lot of people everyone knows stop showing up, making the community smaller initially. It's easier to get people to come to your tournament if it says "M2K, Nairo, Tyrant, Rain, Otori!" in the thread title.

3. Fear that your tournament won't appear to be "legitimate" or will seem "less valid" than a tournament with him in it by higher level players (not really founded though).

4. I don't think MK-banned tournaments are eligible for Apex seed points for example. "Road to Apex" is a pretty solid way of legitimizing your tournament and giving it some cred.

 

[Espy Rose]

Peer pressure sounds about right. Heck, you just emphasized it in number two and three of this list.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Frankly, I blame Apex.

Actually, to hell with it: this is the problem with grassroots communities sometimes. Our tournaments and tourney scene are controlled by players which is a huge conflict of interest. It doesn't help that both players and TOs are usually just a bunch of college kids with money and/or connections.

There are so many things wrong with the way our tournaments are run, and it's all because of peer pressure. Non-Apex tournaments are seeded horribly. I have vivid, perplexing memories of attending tourneys in NY/NJ where a bunch of high-level players who were friends with whoever was running the tournament stood around the laptop seeding it vaguely by who they thought was good. No, no, wrong wrong. There are so many reasons this is wrong, starting with the fact that you know, tournaments exist to determine the best player, we aren't supposed to do that before the tournament even starts for christ's sake. They might as well have been seeding themselves.

But it gets worse, and the MK ban issue is just another problem caused by the informality and familiarity within the scene that is so awesome, but also really dangerous if it isn't kept in check.

TOs are great people and they do us a huge service by being a part of the community and running tournaments but there needs to be some accountability, honesty, and testicles in their decision-making process more than there is.

#realtalk

 

[Espy Rose]

There we go.

 

[Steam]

Colorado's kept MK banned ever since the announcement.

it really helped revive our scene to be honest. we got a lot of new players and they stuck around.

It also kept me from quitting brawl entirely, why would I spend all my time and energy playing brawl and having to deal with the tedious and incredibly hard MK matchup, having to use MK myself because of his strong stages, and often losing to players much worse than me... when I could just play melee, which would be much more balanced, much less draining, and you know... fun?

just on paper, there's really no reason not to ban MK. he's broken by design and most of the roster would just LOVE to have any one of his moves (other than jab and downB)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I dunno, I'd take MK's down-b LOL

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Colorado's kept MK banned ever since the announcement.

it really helped revive our scene to be honest. we got a lot of new players and they stuck around.

AL as well.

 

[Steam]

I dunno, I'd take MK's down-b LOL

ehhhh, I wouldn't.

I'd love shuttle loop though. "let's give a character a somewhat safe dragon punch with followups, nothing could go wrong". I feel like this one move by itself shuts down much more than people think. for one it completely shuts out lucario

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Frankly, I blame Apex.

Actually, to hell with it: this is the problem with grassroots communities sometimes. Our tournaments and tourney scene are controlled by players which is a huge conflict of interest. It doesn't help that both players and TOs are usually just a bunch of college kids with money and/or connections.

*coughcough*

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

*coughcough*

Yo, let's not witch hunt. That's not productive or cool.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm not. There is a stigma out there, however, that hosting tournaments without MK being dressed up in his 7 stage suit and tie, you're signing a death warrant for the event. There are people out there that are willing to stick their neck out, but it's not going to be from the same places you're used to seeing large events now that Xyro's stopped. When people step up and host events trying to start building up into a larger tournament, they're going to need support. It's going to take people supporting these newer events to convince other TOs, even established ones, that you're not going to crash and burn for banning MK.

tl;dr - I'm fishing because it's relevant at the moment.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think NY/NJ still runs some MK-banned events or did for a while, and to my knowledge those always have really good turnout so it isn't a lost cause. I think Doom ran most of them and he's stopped too, like Xyro did.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I'm going to put in effort to get better at this game just so the fact that I travel for MK banned tournaments will actually mean something.

To find out what happened to MeekSpeedy at the border, head on over to post #8538!

 

[hungrybox]

My Jigglypuff took a set off ESAM in Brawl.

Jiggs4midtier

 

[infiniteV115]

Against his...Samus?

 

[deepseadiva]

Frankly, I blame Apex.

Actually, to hell with it: this is the problem with grassroots communities sometimes. Our tournaments and tourney scene are controlled by players which is a huge conflict of interest. It doesn't help that both players and TOs are usually just a bunch of college kids with money and/or connections.

There are so many things wrong with the way our tournaments are run, and it's all because of peer pressure. Non-Apex tournaments are seeded horribly. I have vivid, perplexing memories of attending tourneys in NY/NJ where a bunch of high-level players who were friends with whoever was running the tournament stood around the laptop seeding it vaguely by who they thought was good. No, no, wrong wrong. There are so many reasons this is wrong, starting with the fact that you know, tournaments exist to determine the best player, we aren't supposed to do that before the tournament even starts for christ's sake. They might as well have been seeding themselves.

But it gets worse, and the MK ban issue is just another problem caused by the informality and familiarity within the scene that is so awesome, but also really dangerous if it isn't kept in check.

TOs are great people and they do us a huge service by being a part of the community and running tournaments but there needs to be some accountability, honesty, and testicles in their decision-making process more than there is.

#realtalk

Can you handle this much truth smashers???

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Meno you are one of my favorite posters.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm just glad someone finally pointed out the seeding issue. That crap is soooooooo whack.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm just glad someone finally pointed out the seeding issue. That crap is soooooooo whack.

Oh, don't worry, I've been there and done that.

Guess how much changed?

 

[Flayl]

Seeding makes rankings below 4th actually matter

 

[Voltz]

My Jigglypuff took a set off ESAM in Brawl.

Jiggs4midtier

Is the MU not 70-30 for Pika in brawl anymore?

 

[da K.I.D.]

But below 4th really shouldnt matter. ive always been of the mindset that if i tied with somebody else in the tournament, i didnt place high enough.

Thats why big tournaments have tie breaker matches for 5th thru 8th now.

And the statement that i made to start this conversation was based on personal experience.

*SPOILER ALERT, NAME DROPS INCOMING*
I cant speak for Espy and SfP, but i can tell you whats happened to me in the last month. I watched a facebook thread for a tournament in the tristate area. It was announced as MK banned. Naruto aka Tyrell decide to throw a temper tantrum and make a huge douchy fuss until Keitaro talked the TO into changing the rules.

Not only that but somebody really hopped on the event page to claim that they were planning on flying 20 people to the event from Texas, but had since changed their minds because they learned mk was banned.
Clearly that was a blatent lie, but as a TO you feel a lot of pressure from something like that if youre new to the TOing game.

Its amazing the extents people will go to.

It also happened to me when I ran an MK banned tournament 3 weeks ago.

I held it up to a public vote, and the majority voted to ban MK.
Meekspeedy tried to pressure me into unbanning him by threatening the attendance of himself and TOJoe. I kept him banned because making two salty *****s less salty wasnt worth the enjoyment/experience of everyone else there.

He also looked for ways to trash talk my event after the fact even though he didnt even attend to know what he was talking about.


Moral of the story?
*****s will do some reeeeeaall grimey ish to keep mk unbanned

 

[Uncle]

I agree with the principle of banning MK, but his banishment doesn't really make the game much better or different, imo. ICs, Olimar, Snake, Diddy, and Falco will still run rampant holding most characters down. In fact, how much you want to bet that former MK mains will jump to one of these characters? They probably will, and they'll win tourneys or place really high AS USUAL. Brawl will still be Brawl, problems and all.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Having a seven characters at the top spots in a tourney is different then every event being another episode of "MK and friends show'

Plus, its objectively more fun

 

[Z'zgashi]

The only problem I have with banning MK, is that 95% of characters that are invalidated by MK, are also invalidated by other top tiers as well. And I dont have a problem with people running MK banned tournaments, but I just dont think he deserves to be banned in the first place. I mean, if I were to plan on going to a tournament and it ended up being MK banned, Id still go, but if I were asked my opinion Id say I prefer him allowed.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I agree with the principle of banning MK, but his banishment doesn't really make the game much better or different, imo. ICs, Olimar, Snake, Diddy, and Falco will still run rampant holding most characters down. In fact, how much you want to bet that former MK mains will jump to one of these characters? They probably will, and they'll win tourneys or place really high AS USUAL. Brawl will still be Brawl, problems and all.

Wasn't there a Ness and Ike in top 5 at Whobo? :o

 

[SoulPech]

Wasn't there a Ness and Ike in top 5 at Whobo? :o

Ryo and Shaky did well.

But that was, like, 1 National tournament.