Official BBR Tier List v7

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zoning aside, doesn't Marth's up-b more or less negate Peach's best trait, her awesome pressure game?

 

[Iota]

It's too slow to punish bair/fair on shield so I doubt it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i would assume it can tear through her dair and jab though.

 

[smashkng]

Yeah Peach gets the time to shield if she lands with Fair super close to the ground, but Marth's Up b goes through her jab.

 

[Myollnir]

If he's shielding I think he can react to Peach's F-air and do an UpB to hit Peach during the hitbox of her F-air by using the invincility frames. Right?

 

[Iota]

He'd have to throw it out before the hitbox comes out but I suppose that can work.

 

[-LzR-]

That shouldn't be hard as Peach has to use fair at a certain time before landing for it to be of any use and it's slow enough to be able to react to it with a practically 1 frame invincible move.

 

[Iota]

At least DS isn't invincible once the hitbox is out.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I enjoy the oli match up when I'm feeling good with it !

Word on this.

 

[Dark.Pch]

There are couple of cool, consistent things which Peach can use to fight toe to toe with Marth, but it's definitely easier at practically every level for us. Less (i.e. like none) grounded-area float, different zoning styles for turnips and ... down air. At least that's the progression Illmatic made over the course of playing the MU with me a metric ton for 2-3 weeks.

Explain this to me then.

@ Marth vs. Peach: Imagine a situation where both chars use counter at the same time. In theory, whose animation would end earlier? I know it's not so much as a factor in the match-up, i'm just curious. =)

Marth would.

If he's shielding I think he can react to Peach's F-air and do an UpB to hit Peach during the hitbox of her F-air by using the invincility frames. Right?

If I fair his shield then block, I have enough time to block his up-B. Peach fair on block is 0,-2

 

[infiniteV115]

It's a bad idea. High risk low reward (unless peach is at kill %s, at which point it's high risk high reward)
If you do it right, you hit Peach with Dolphin Slash and unless you landed on the top BF platform/killed her/sent her far enough away, she can just come back and punish you with a fair or sideB or something.

If you don't do it right, you get faired...

Honestly counter is a better idea XD

 

[Iota]

Also if Peach shields the up-b and you don't land on a plat you're eating a u-smash. Counter being a better option than DS...true but lol.

 

[Dark.Pch]

That won't be my saving grace in the match up. it's just stupid and annoying.

Im also starting to think I been kidding myself this whole time. This could be my heavy depression talking right now but what if everyone is right. Peach might not be as good as I think she is. So then what?

I say she is better then what people think cause there has not been a Peach player that plays the way I am trying to create with her meta game for the past 2 weeks. So I would not agree with something like that until I see all this used to a fool extent in tournament. To really see just how she would do. But it could be the same result. I wanted to be the one to actually pull something like this off. But my stupid mental problem won't allow me and can never place well in tournaments anymore like I use too. Medication I don't think will do much damage.

I might just leave things the way they are and let people think as they please. Even if I know deep down they are wrong on things. But i can't do anything about it. Might be best if I just gave up. And toss the goal I set out for aside. With all that said and time I spent. I actually feel horrible as a player and a person.

 

[Youngster Joey]

I always liked Marth with wolf but I never thought free. Is that campy mu?

 

[smashkng]

Actually Iota Marth's Up b is invincible the first frame the move comes out (the time at which DS is a strong move), unlike Bowser's Up b. I've never traded hits when I hit at the time the DS deals 13% damage. And because it's trascendent it doesn't ever clash.

 

[Zinoto]

Lately, I've been starting to rethink as a character. He seemse like a character with massive potential and strengths, lacks the representation to take him into that high level.

Also, Shaya, what do you think of - ? The chart has it as -1, but I think it's even. Marth has the tools to absolutely decimate , but in practice it never seems to turn out that way. Would you concede to -1 or what?

 

[C.J.]

Zinoto, I think it's even too. As does Ramin. And various other people.

 

[Iota]

Actually Iota Marth's Up b is invincible the first frame the move comes out (the time at which DS is a strong move), unlike Bowser's Up b. I've never traded hits when I hit at the time the DS deals 13% damage. And because it's trascendent it doesn't ever clash.

Ooh, my bad. I thought it was only invincible on start up.

 

[bubbaking]

Few pages late...

-1
+0
+1
+2
+3
+4

You better believe it. Peach is that good!

Even DarkPeach agreed on even for DDDeach for the time being.

You better get used to it, bro cuz now that everybody knows that Peach is a *good* character - a *high tier character*, even - she's gonna dominate the metagame because she shuts down so many characters and she only loses to MK and Marth. And since she counters Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Wario and King DDD you can expect to see her a lot more now that the secret truth that everybody hid for the last 4 1/2 years has finally been revealed!!!

I don't remember who stated it earlier, but only a few people will accept to change their point of view on a low/mid character. The fact that nobody will accept to consider that a mid/low character can be good against their main (just because it's a mid/low) is also annoying.

Most people admit that Peach is pretty high, though, right? Also, I could say the same about how people think DDD is a "bad character" just because he has the best CG, even more about how people think DDD auto-loses to whoever he doesn't CG.

I admire Dark Peach's dedication. He isn't as bad as he makes himself out to be either lol.

Depends. If you mean "except for when he gets mad at tournaments," then yeah, he's pretty cool. My buddies and I still talk about how scared we got when Dark.Pch just exploded and then he was just simmering during our friendlies with him.

There's a gender thing now?
Good job tier list thread.. you did something.

What? I made something happen! Hey, wait a second, it still shows a female symbol under your info.....

 

[infiniteV115]

It IS only invincible on startup.

Dolphin Slash
Invincible frames: 1-5
Hit: 5-11
Landing Lag: 34
Shield Stun: 13

There's only 1 frame of overlap between the invincibility and the hitbox activity.

Bubba, Gheb is definitely trolling.
Also like 90% of the people on these boards (based off of what I've seen) with a gender icon don't put their actual gender XD

 

[bubbaking]

I figured as much, but I'm having a very hard time detecting the sarcasm at times...

 

[infiniteV115]

Just keep in mind that Gheb pretty much refers solely to results when talking about MUs/tier lists /character viability.

 

[Espy Rose]

And Japan.

 

[Exceladon City]

I do not like dying at 100% from random hyphens. Fox's mobility is quite frustrating.

I feel like I'm the only one that enjoys playing Olimars

I don't mind Olimar. I just have to figure out whether they like to shield or run away. Once I do that, I just work around his frame data.

My personal experiences say Sonic should be much higher on that list.

Speed + 8:00


Gheb, you're on asscheeks if you think Peach has a +3 on Luigi. I'm actually appalled by that post for how inflated her match-ups are. You are looking mad Romney right now.

 

[Myollnir]

@Bubbaking : There is a big gap between high tiers and middle tiers though. Peach has a good potential if you ask me. She's at the good spot (maybe she could rise in the future, but definitely not now) in my opinion.
DDD is pretty good but you NEED a second (he can be terrible against some characters). The tier list doesn't care about how you can cover his weaknesses with other characters, so when you get hard countered by 2 characters among the Top 4 and lose soundly to the other 2, you just can't be any higher than the bottom of high tier.
As for me, he should drop 1 spot on the tier list and should be the last characters among the high tier. He's too powerful to be middle tier.
Don't take me wrong, I like DDD, he one of my seconds. It's always good to have a pocket DDD.

 

[Youngster Joey]

wait wrong thread haha

im at least gonna make it something what i think is useful. who has the biggest chance of moving up? and moving down if you all want haha

 

[| Big D |]

Dedede has been putting in work lately against the characters he supposedly does terrible against.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I can't believe so many people are having a hard time figuring out whether or not Gheb's peach MU list was serious or not.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

To be fair, Gheb says a lot of stupid things.

 

[Myollnir]

@Big D : I'm looking forward to seeing the next matchup chart then.

As I said, DDD is only one of my seconds. Meaning I don't know anything about his bad matchups, my opinion is based on what I've read. Forgive my ignorance. Can you develop your post though?

Obviously, I'm not asking you to do so because I want to deny what you're saying/prove you wrong (as I said I'm not experienced with DDD against the characters we're talking about), so it doesn't matter if you're inaccurate or something. I'm just curious and interested.

 

[bubbaking]

Again, if people don't wanna read my post then don't. I don't care. But for being lazy in not ready what I say, don't assume things of me when these assumptions could have been taken care of with what I have said already if people would have read my post.

Posts too long. Do not read. But then image gets applied to Dark.Pch. Must read now. No, post still too long.

I already said I'm not gonna do that. I'm not cheap when I explain something. Again that's how I am. And will dish out all that I know based on what is being talked about.

And I have said, if people don't wanna read, that's fine. All I tell people is don't assume stuff of me and pinn this internet image of me to sound cool and funny cause you choose not to read what I say. As long as people do that, it's fine with me if people don't read what I say.

I will make posts long and hard to read so that people are not willing to read them, but then I will complain when they don't and say that it's their fault when they don't read them. Then when someone tells me that my posts are too long, I will tell him......that it's his fault.

You know, perhaps you should consider making the paragraphs in your posts smaller so that it's easier to process the information, or maybe you should think about multi-quoting. Oftentimes, you quote someone else but you make it part of your written post so that it gives the illusion that your post is longer than it truly is.

#MyPostsAreUberLongToo

Imo Yoshi loses to ICs -1. That cg is just too good.

Regardless though, I feel like we have to work harder and make a lot fewer mistakes in order to win, hence why I think we lose slightly. Definitely more than winnable for us though.

See, but that kinda applies to EVERYONE'S MU against ICs.

ICs are the "**** up once and lose a stock" MU. It's incredibly dumb to deal with because you always have to make a lot fewer mistakes than the ICs to win. Theoretically, three mistakes will cost you the match.

I don't think our tools fail to give us enough options to avoid the CG reliably while damaging the ICs, so I don't think we lose the MU.

MU evaluations consider play at top/high level, but they should factor in human error as well. If not, then MK should +2 everyone and +3 everyone else, 'cause you know, everyone is not everyone else.

I'm 0-12 in set count vs. Trela.
You don't know misery.

Ughhh! I've done SO many competitive sets against John12346 every week. I have yet to overtake him as #1 in our university's PR. Taken sets off him in friendlies and taken him to game 5 during competitive sets, but I think I'm at least 0-20 against him in competitive sets.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Just keep in mind that Gheb pretty much refers solely to results when talking about MUs/tier lists /character viability.

I think theorycrafting is a viable tool if you limit its use to interpreting tourney results. If we use a certain level of play as our standard we can directly conclude which results we can take at face value and which not but just blindly theorycrafting about a character's tools and traits and on how it's supposed to affect match-ups can not make up for the hard facts. That's why I always defy baseless claims such as ZSS vs ICs being anything other than even, DK vs Snake being not in Snake's favor or Peach getting murdered by Marth. Why should we assume something to be true when reality keeps showing us the contrary?

 

[bubbaking]

@Myollnir: A lot of top DDD's and top Diddy's believe DDD:Diddy is only -1 while the MU chart gives the impression that Diddy solidly beats DDD with a -2 (something you also presumed in one of your previous posts). Some also think that DDD:Falco is also only a -1 instead of a -2.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Bubba how do you do against Nuke?

 

[Zinoto]

@Myollnir: A lot of top DDD's and top Diddy's believe DDD:Diddy is only -1 while the MU chart gives the impression that Diddy solidly beats DDD with a -2 (something you also presumed in one of your previos posts). Some also think that DDD:Falco is also only a -1 instead of a -2.

^^^

4God, P1, and Vex think the MU is only -1 for . I'm favoring that opinion as well as of late. has been holding his own lately.

 

[bubbaking]

That's why I always defy baseless claims such as ZSS vs ICs being anything other than even, DK vs Snake being not in Snake's favor or Peach getting murdered by Marth. Why should we assume something to be true when reality keeps showing us the contrary?

Peach has been gettin' murdered by Marth since Melee, dawg! And it seems like it's for a lot of the same reasons, even though combos aren't so prevalent in Brawl.

Bubba how do you do against Nuke?

My win:lose ratio to his Diddy with DDD is about 40:60, but every single one of our games has always been last stock, high %. I can't touch his Diddy with Marth for some reason (I guess I'm just a true DDD at heart). I consistently beat his Snake. Like, I think I've only lost to his Snake once with DDD out of the 10 or so games I've had against it. My Marth also beats his Snake most of the time, but not as much or as convincingly as DDD.

Tl;dr - His Snake's a fraud. His Diddy's the real deal, but I'm figuring out how to beat him with DDD.

Edit: Waddles are really too good in that MU, especially if you manage to nab one of thos 'naners and plant it behind yourself.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Peach has been gettin' murdered by Marth since Melee

Inform yourself.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Damn you must have gotten a lot better lately. Good job.

 

[clowsui]

The tier list, over time, has gradually shifted over from "ideal play" to "a prediction of a character's potential". It's a mixed approach that makes the Smash community one of the best at making a tier list, imo. We create a "hypothesis" using our perceptions/knowledge of characters thus far and look at the data (tournament results). If it matches up with our hypothesis, then we set it aside (e.g metaknight, ICs). If it doesn't match up with our hypothesis, either because the hypothesis seems to overestimate or underestimate the success of the character, then we look at the reasons that there could be a disparity between the hypothesis and the data. I honestly think that this interpretation of the tier list should be the predominant one because then it gives room for discussion while preserving the integrity of the BBR if it makes a wildly unpopular tier list (i.e. there's no guessing why the list is bad, either the initial hypothesis was no good or the data was believed to be insufficient).

Let's apply this interpretation to a specific character: Marth. My hypothesis for Marth is that he is among the top 8 of the game. The other seven characters would be MK, Diddy, Snake, Olimar, Ice Climbers, Falco, and Pikachu. Thinking about his tools, this isn't too unreasonable. So what does the data say? The data shows that several Marth players have had success across the span of the metagame (time and location wise). Additionally, there have been enough results (bar Pikachu) to substantiate the other characters being in the top 8 also, and Marth's results are good enough relative to theirs to have him be up there. So having Marth in top 8 isn't really a problem, and further hypotheses made about Marth should work further proceeding from this conclusion.

Let's make another hypothesis now , then, to answer this question: where does Marth fit in the top 8?). I would say Marth belongs at the bottom of these 8 characters because while he has all of the tools to win, the fact that he requires such technical play and that his risk-reward is completely skewed for deviation from practical technical perfection makes him prone to inconsistency. Meanwhile the other seven characters do not face similar difficulties and have abusable characteristics. Watching players' matches, this seems like an adequate explanation for his lower placement on the tier list despite the variety of his tools, and we move on.

[COLLAPSE="Peach stuff, applied example"]So why mention all this? Well look, Dark.Pch here has a very strong hypothesis for Peach and has the frame data to show the potential. But the results data does not match up. So then we ask a few questions. Are players playing in the way the hypothesis describes? Dark.Pch doesn't think so. Evaluating the play of higher level Peach players, it appears they selectively abide by parts of the hypothesis. OK, so why have we not seen something like "the complete Peach" as Dark.Pch describes?

One possible reason is, as Dark.Pch said, a lack of motivated players for Peach period/a lack of players with the correct mindset. Even if they are motivated and have a healthy competitive mindset, Peach players do not possess sufficient knowledge of the character (i.e. the "model" created by Dark.Pch). Dark.Pch weights this strongly in his evaluation, so the hypothesis should hold despite discrepancies in the data, and soon enough there will be results to substantiate the hypothesis. He might even advocate that Peach should therefore be ranked higher on good faith.

Thinking more with respect to the character, let's ignore the fact that Peach's counterpicking game is decently limited and instead focus on technicality. If we agree that technical precision is a part of the character's potential success, then just as we did with Marth, we have to evaluate just how much technical precision affects Peach. Our answers to the different questions posed in this part of the evaluation could help support or detract from Dark.Pch's hypothesis (and subsequent counterargument against the data discrepancy).
1. Given that she has to be technically consistent, to what extent does she have to be consistent? I.e. how often? Based on the model described, the answer seems to be "most of the match".
2. What happens when Peach is technically insufficient? Most of the time, she seems to be fairly easy to punish based on the model described. These punishments result in disadvantageous positions for a variety of matchups (as opposed to a reset to neutral).
2a. When she is put in bad positions, does she have the tools to return herself to neutral? I would say that she has a hard time doing so. Trapping Peach seems decently easy to do and to continue in ledge, juggle + oki scenarios. Edgeguarding not so much due to float.
3. If Peach is sufficiently technical, just how "hard" does she hit? Based on the model described, she seems to get strong mixup. That's pretty good, but there's quite a few characters that have guaranteed damage in a lot of scenarios if they don't mess up.

In other words, Peach not only needs to be precise but also gets ****ed up for a long time when she messes up, and doesn't hit hard enough when she is set up. I think that using this as a reason to explain her lack of success allows us to successfully justify her lower tier position despite the potential truth of Dark.Pch's model. That is, just as how Marth has all the tools but is placed lower than characters with similar amounts of tools (Diddy, MK) due to poor risk/reward, so follows Peach (in addition to other characteristics I ignored for the simplicity of argument). Peach might not have the qualified players, but even the most qualified players will mess up enough to show Peach's clear flaw(s) that occur as a result of messing up.[/COLLAPSE]

This is a good post wrt tier list stuff and theorycraft or w/e /shameless self plug

 

[C.J.]

I think theorycrafting is a viable tool if you limit its use to interpreting tourney results.

I disagree. Particularly exceptional theorycraft should be able to predict tourney results with high accuracy. Anything other than that level of theorycraft should be dismissed and ignored.