Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

I think 4GOD > Vex but probably not by much.
And yeah I tried the buffered reverse pivot grab infinite and it was really hard...definitely seems unrealistic to expect someone to get it consistently.

 

[da K.I.D.]

He also told me that the down throw up smash on sonic is easy which is odd to me.

down throw up smash is 3 inputs buffered into the 10 frames before down throw ends.

reverse pivot grab is 5 inputs in that same time frame.

it seems weird to me that you can get from easy, to too hard to be consistent in the span of 2 extra inputs in a certain time frame.

 

[bubbaking]

2 inputs is a lot, especially when it's the 2 inputs between 3 and 5.

Edit: 5 inputs in a 10 frame window is an input per two frames. That's about as hard as multishining consistently.

Edit 2: In Meree, obviously...

Edit 3: I think it's a little harder, actually...

 

[da K.I.D.]

im not saying that that the RPG shouldnt be hard, im just saying that based on that, I doubt the idea that a bunch of people are going to be down throw up smashing my sonic consistently either.

 

[| Big D |]

Keep in mind 3 of those inputs are on the analog.

Of course you can lessen the load and use the c stick if you hold the attack button during a portion of it.

Dthrow > upsmash is much much easier, not even on the same scale.

 

[Pikabunz]

Reversed buffered pivot-grab is much much harder than dthrow upsmash. No one will ever learn to do it consistently.

 

[bubbaking]

Going from 3 to 5 is hard, the same way going from 1 to 3 is hard. Infinite on DK and Luigi is only 1 action and it's super easy. SCSG is 3 actions and it's much harder, IMO.

/5cents

 

[Espy Rose]

I disagree completely with Lucas +1 on Sonic.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I disagree completely with Lucas +1 on Sonic.

Alright, I didnt want to be the first or the only one to comment on that.

real talk, that is at least even and if its not even its not falling in lucas' favor.

espy, me and you need to work on that lucas stuff we were talking about.

 

[infiniteV115]

I thought DDD could also do the infinite by doing a dash dance pivot grab?
ie if he's facing right and dthrows Snake, he would have to buffer analog right-->analog left--> C-stick right --> grab?
So...4 inputs?
Doc King where u at

Also as for the buffered usmash, it's kinda made much easier by switching one of your shoulder buttons (people rarely use all 3) to jump...cause then it's left thumb flicking the analog for the dash, another finger hitting a shoulder button and right thumb hitting up on the C-stick.

 

[| Big D |]

Or you could just put your finger on the Y button.

(default control obvs)

 

[Luco]

Marth would.

Yea I checked frame data. Weird, I always thought peach's counter was slightly faster but nope, it ends 12(?) frames or so after Marth's.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I disagree completely with Lucas +1 on Sonic.

...Seriously what the heck happened while I was busy with school.
Lucas +1 is just...lulzy

 

[bubbaking]

I could see it. WB PKF rebuffs all of Sonic's attempts to get in. Lucas is pretty mobile himself, and his moveset is decent at keeping stupid, fast things out of his space. Not saying Sonic isn't getting in, but it might be hard for him to get that lead so he can run away. Also, Lucas has a much easier time killing.

 

[KRDsonic]

I'm really tired and stuff so I may be reading stuff wrong, but why does Sonic need to run away?

 

[Luco]

I seem to recall we discussed this a while ago and agreed on a 0. Umm... Let me look.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm really tired and stuff so I may be reading stuff wrong, but why does Sonic need to run away?

I don't know this MU, so I'm clearly theorycrafting here, but I was under the impression that Sonic can hold a lead extremely easily by simply retreating, especially against a char who can't really wall off a large section of the stage. I mean, why not? I personally wouldn't want to risk eating a suprise combo/KO that suddenly took out my lead when I have tools that can help me maintain my lead while punishing Lucas for trying to catch up.

Oh yeah, don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I say that Sonic should run, but he should most definitely punish Lucas for trying to approach to get the lead back. What would you do in Sonic's shoes?

Also, C.J., if most of us are so bad at the art of theoretical analysis, then why don't you tell us what we're doing wrong so we can correct ourselves? I, for one, would love to think like a top level player so I can get a good perspective of things.

 

[Luco]

Sonic only has so much to run away, his aerial mobility isn't incredible or anything. We can also seriously mess with him offstage. However, he has ground mobility and a bunch of other stuff... In all I seem to recall 0... I keep missing the discussion... Aha! I know where to find it. Brb.

 

[bubbaking]

So if Sonic has trouble running away, then the MU should be even better for Lucas. +1 in my eyes.

 

[Luco]

So if Sonic has trouble running away, then the MU should be even better for Lucas. +1 in my eyes.

Well actually I considered erasing that point, because i'm not entirely sure of it.

I do know his recovery game is baaaad vs. us.

 

[bubbaking]

You're not making it look any better for Sonic, man.....

 

[Luco]

You're not making it look any better for Sonic, man.....

Good! I'm a Lucas main... this is just what I want...

But I remember the discussion from somewhere. We more or less agreed on a 0. It was a while back so i'm open to new ideas now.

 

[bubbaking]

Well here's a new idea! Sonic:Lucas is +1 for Lucas.

I wish someone would bring some serious light to this MU, though...

 

[Luco]

Well here's a new idea! Sonic:Lucas is +1 for Lucas.

I wish someone would bring some serious light to this MU, though...

Aww, I wasn't good enough? D:

I agree though. Also if you keep saying +1 Lucas every Sonic main within the nearest 10000 miles will bag you over the head and shout in your ear.

I can't remember but sonic does have his own stuff. I just have no idea how well it works... Ask J? Tbh i'm not averse to having it +1, 0 or -1 in either's favour but I think it should be discussed among players better than I. :I

 

[bubbaking]

I'd say you were good enough, but you were arguing that it was even while giving me more and more reasons why that MU would be in Lucas's favor? Then again, I can't blame you. It's easier for one to see the MU from his own side side, but he could still acknowledge that the other side has its strengths, even if he can't see them.

Edit: KID's lurkin' this thread, but he ain't sayin' nothin'! Shouldn't he have been one of the first Sonics to "bag me over the head and shout in my ear?"

 

[Espy Rose]

Oh my god.
What in the world did I just read?

Sonic with poor air mobility? Sonic can't run?
I just.
I don't.

What?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Espy, we messed up man.

look what we've done to the perception of this character.


Aight, let me give you fools a breakdown of this character.

Sonic is the fastest character of the game. Sonics speed allows him to do 2 very important things. Avoid getting hit in situations where other characters would get hit, and hit other characters in situations where the opponent usually wouldnt get hit.

What this means is that should the situation present itself (DDD) sonic can run away from characters and make himself unhittable/uncatchable once he gains the lead. This is the theorycrafting way that sonic wins matches.

What this ALSO means on a much more practical note is that against most characters, Sonic can get in, by punishing a move that would normally be safe, and then NEVER LET HIM GET AWAY. Sonic can put a character on the defensive very easily and use his speed to cover a ton of options and rack a lot of damage in a very small amount of time. This is how sonic actually plays most of his matches in practice.

as far as vs lucas goes, we also have the odd, and not usually utilized advantage of having a range advantage on him. Me and espy also have some anti lucas technology that we need to test.

it seems like a really even matchup to me. but like i said, the last time we saw that matchup was 2010.

 

[bubbaking]

Who won that MU? Was it Mekos?

Oh my god.
What in the world did I just read?

Sonic with poor air mobility? Sonic can't run?
I just.
I don't.

What?

Hey, I think it should be noted that I said all along that Sonic can run. It was some choice other people who said otherwise.

And in Luco's defense, he didn't say that Sonic has "poor" air mobility. He said that Sonic's air mobility isn't "incredible."

 

[Luco]

Oh my god.
What in the world did I just read?

Sonic with poor air mobility? Sonic can't run?
I just.
I don't.

What?

I said 'not incredible'... And he can run... Just that in my kooky mind I don't see him running forever without getting hit on a stage without walk-offs that is fairly small, for instance Smashville, IF the Lucas knows what he's doing. I also don't see him camping....

Why must.
Everyone take this.
To extremes?

Nope, forget it. Seems my good (I wish...) name in terms of theorycrafting has been tarnished anyway (gets walked over).

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic's air speed is actually reasonably high. Very high.

 

[Uncle]

I never thought I'd see the day when SONIC'S air speed got underrated. Usually, that only happens to characters like Bowser, who just so happens to be relatively quick in the air too.

 

[Luco]

Sonic's air speed is actually reasonably high. Very high.

Yea but doesn't he have that really weird thing when he jumps where it doesn't move him for like a fifth or so of the jump?? I thought... Meahhh...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm with Luco in that Sonic can't run away.

 

[Tesh]

espy, he clearly said "mobility" not speed. which sonic doesnt have much of in the air

the idea of pkf walling sonic out is......absurd. it can be pretty safe, but sonic can close ground fast enough to stop you from doing it twice safely.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic has both mobility and speed.

 

[Tesh]

He doesn't have that much mobility or "aerial acceleration". He doesn't change directions very well at all without the use of specials or his jump.

 

[Luco]

Yea he ties at 31st with a few chars. Lucas ties at 4th with a few chars.

That's base aerial mobility though. Aerial speed, sonic wins out on.

As it's been said, I did say mobility rather than speed...

 

[infiniteV115]

His specials are more than good enough to provide him with the mobility he needs.

 

[Luco]

You think? This is where I don't know an awful lot about Sonic. Dunno how good it would serve him either, someone else can elaborate on that...

 

[-LzR-]

Well his spindashes can move him around the stage with an active hitbox that can be cancelled with a jump or an attack at almost any time incredibly fast. Look at spinshot for example.
It's kinda lika how MK makes up for his lack of mobility with his specials, except Sonic also has a great airspeed.