Official BBR Tier List v7

[Seagull Joe]

sucks. is godly.

 

[Life]

people are saying sonic has no mobility?

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT

have you never seen a spinshot in your life or something?

In the air we have:

DownB giving us a hitbox as we fall and letting us accelerate instantly when we release it, not to mention shield cancelable if we land with it...
SideB letting us change momentum and giving us a small jump...
Spring to escape basically anything, to drop a hitbox below us...
Dair letting us get to the ground fast (though it's laggy if you don't spring first)...
Spinshot to get over people...
Moderately fast air speed...

...On the ground we have:

Fastest run speed in the game, gets across FD in 57 frames...
One of the fastest walks in the game (IIRC third after Marth and Fox)...
...And we can: SideB or DownB out of run to stop momentum...
SideB backwards out of run...
shield cancel SideB charge if not fully charged...
Spring to escape basically anything and to vertically chase, again...
pseudo-DD if we don't mind risking tripping (I forget what it's called)...
spinshot, again...
go multiple directions out of spins (vertical SDJ, horizontal SDR, diagonally with a SDJ, diagonally with a spinshot, diagonally with a non-spinshot jump)...

...and probably some other things I'm forgetting...

...and you're supposed to edgeguard us, wall us out, recover safely against us, and catch up to us how, exactly?

It's a miracle of balance that we aren't MK tier.

 

[Seagull Joe]

sucks. is godly.

 

[PMC66]

sucks. is godly.

according to you is pro, and is good vs

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Reversed buffered pivot-grab is much much harder than dthrow upsmash. No one will ever learn to do it consistently.

Pikabunz has the best avatar.

 

[Iota]

Both of your opinions on Rob suck. K thx.

 

[bubbaking]

the idea of pkf walling sonic out is......absurd. it can be pretty safe, but sonic can close ground fast enough to stop you from doing it twice safely.

But then he meets nair and all of Lucas's other good aerials that can actually combo into big damage. KID mentioned that Sonic never has to let Lucas get away. Well, in the same vein as KRDSonic's logic, "Why does Lucas need to get away?" He's perfectly capable of contending with Sonic, I feel.

It's kinda lika how MK makes up for his lack of mobility by being MK.

Fixed that for ya.

Serious talk, MK's pretty darn mobile. His initial dash is really fast, his run is only a little slower, and his glide is fairly decent. His vertical air mobility is also pretty good thanks to fast jumps. His horizontal air mobility outside of gliding, though, is pretty bad, and he can't really make up for that with specials. His specials aren't like Sonic's, where they actually actively buff his mobility. It just so happens that they cover him with hitboxes.

 

[PMC66]

Both of your opinions on Rob suck. K thx.

i think vs is -3 for ROB

 

[bubbaking]

people are saying sonic has no mobility?

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT

have you never seen a spinshot in your life or something?

Please do not do this. Absolutely no one here said that Sonic has "no" or "poor" mobility.

...and you're supposed to edgeguard us, wall us out, recover safely against us, and catch up to us how, exactly?

It's a miracle of balance that we aren't MK tier.

Sonic's still fairly low on the tier list for a reason, buddy, and it's not because of MK. Doesn't doing SDR in the air make you fall like a rock as you recover (asking 'cause not sure)? I'm pretty sure Lucas can harass your recovery with PKT, and then he has those dair and bair meteors. I'm also pretty sure Lucas can recover safely against Sonic. There are so many other characters that I feel should gimp Lucas really hard, but he does just fine against them. He's not Ness. I honestly don't know why Lucas is still Low Tier. He deserves to be right up there with Luigi, PT, and Ness.

 

[infiniteV115]

His vertical air mobility is also pretty good thanks to fast jumps.

What?
...Uh, you do realize that the chars with more than 2 jumps (MK, Kirby, DDD, Pit, etc) have the longest (duration, not height) jumps in the game, right?
MK's jumps themselves aren't fast, they're slow as ****. He can only be vertically mobile by using uairs to shorten the duration of his jumps and even then he's not that quick with his verticasl movement.

 

[Dekillsage]

You know -3 is 80:20
It's not -3 lol.

 

[bubbaking]

He always struck me as fast vertically. The point still stands. His specials don't really boost his mobility, outside of SL and DR when you're trying to catch that ledge.

 

[infiniteV115]

And DC when he's trying to catch the ledge

 

[bubbaking]

Sooo, uh, that Lucas:Sonic MU......anyone know how it works? 'Cause if no one can give an accurate breakdown of their interactions with each other, then I doubt the BBR will do a much better job when it comes to assigning an MU value to the MU chart v3.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Espy is half of the Sonic panel, tho.

 

[bubbaking]

And KID's the other half?

 

[Iota]

i think vs is -3 for ROB

You also think Rob is bottom of mid tier, which is dumb. Note, seagull didn't know that ZSS could infinite Rob till he was told so. He changed his mind about the MU not being -3 afterwards.

You know -3 is 80:20
It's not -3 lol.

-3 is more 65:35-70:30 imo. -4 is 80:20-90:10. Even if it was the MU is near impossible for rob to win.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Espy is half of the Sonic panel, tho.

And KID's the other half?

GDI I wanted to say and be all cool about it, but you beat me to it lol.

To be fair, for the last matchup chart. it was 95% me and espy.

I think we might actually have some help this time around.

 

[infiniteV115]

wut at 65:35 being -3 O.O
The ZSS MU against ROB is -3 if the ZSS knows (and can land) the infinite, -2 otherwise. The MU doesn't really happen often (at any notable level) outside of me vs Holy (hasn't happened since June) and Salem vs Dill (idk how often this happens, I've only seen it once).

Unfortunately I didn't know the easy method of doing the infinite until after the last time I faced him, so I never got it on him for very long (I can 0-death with it now) and my set record against Holy's ROB is 1-3.

 

[da K.I.D.]

how do you lose 1-3 in a +2 matchup?

 

[DMG]

THIS is why I hate the -/+ system for the record. It's so much easier to talk in 5 or even 10 point increments lol

 

[C.J.]

It's only a problem when people try to relate it to the ratio system

 

[DMG]

Well relating it to small/med/large advantage is basically the same thing. The problem is that people label stuff wrong. I've seen plenty of 55:45 MU's vary between 0 and +1, seen 6:4 MU's vary from +1 to +2, etc. It's easier to encompass MU's with this system, but it's also less consistent and you get MU's with the same "rating" but a different difficulty in game because people don't want to use +3 or +4 for anything but the worst of the worst or because they want to baby step +1 and +2.

 

[infiniteV115]

how do you lose 1-3 in a +2 matchup?

Whoops, I remembered incorrectly. I'm 1-4 with him in total (2 of those losses were against his MK) and 1-2 against his ROB.
The first time I played his ROB was back in March...so I had pretty much no ROB experience + I wasn't as good back then + Ally was coaching him, so I got 3-0'd.

Then at a tourney in June I 2-1'd him in WSFs (2 stock on both my wins, LSLH on his CP), then lost WFs to Tin Man really badly and got demotivated, then lost to Holy in LFs cause I wasn't playing as well and got 3-0'd.
Literally right after losing LFs Holy unplugged his controller, looked at me and said "What happened man? You were playing much better in semis" and then we talked for a bit about getting demotivated and whatnot.

And then I thought I might run into him again at IMPULSE so I practiced the infinite for that, but I haven't played his ROB since

Ftr, Holy also agrees that it's a pretty bad MU for ROB, and he has told me multiple times that when I get him in the air he feels like he can't do anything.

 

[da K.I.D.]

DMG, I would agree with you, but if you recall we actually got to the point where people were trying to argue the idea that a 7-3 matchup DOESNT mean that you're supposed to win 7 out of 10 matches. At that point, it had to go.

 

[bubbaking]

I could almost swear that some people here actually think +3 = +4. That's part of my problem with how people communicate using this system.

 

[-LzR-]

There is no damn way to measure MUs more accurately than +0 to +4. Stop comparing to -2 MUs together and saying the other -2 is easier so the other one shouldn't be -2. It's just a category, not a super accurate measured number that was got with complex math.

 

[bubbaking]

DMG, I would agree with you, but if you recall we actually got to the point where people were trying to argue the idea that a 7-3 matchup DOESNT mean that you're supposed to win 7 out of 10 matches. At that point, it had to go.

KID, factoring in stages, stage strikes, and stage bans, that logic actually isn't totally incorrect....

 

[da K.I.D.]

And this is why we dont use that system anymore

 

[Espy Rose]

5s and 10s is really no better than +3s and +4s, DMG.

@Tesh: Sonic's acceleration in the air is bad, but his top speed is not. Plus his accel is mitigated by the fact that he has spin dashes and upB in the air.

 

[Life]

We're trying to sum up a highly complicated series of unpredictable mathematical interactions with an absurd number of variables with a natural number, (37!-37) times. And it hasn't occurred to anyone that this might not be a good idea?

 

[DMG]

LIFE GAVE US LEMONS

You know the rest

Gotta do what you gotta do

 

[Luigi player]

KID, factoring in stages, stage strikes, and stage bans, that logic actually isn't totally incorrect....

Of course it sounds incorrect. A character winning 60:40 should win 10 out of 10 matches ideally. CPs/players/some randomness can net wins tho obviously.

Like, if people would say Diddy wins 6:4 vs Lucas I'd still say the Diddy should win all matches/10...

I don't get how one can really say it means you should win 6/10 matches...

 

[Iota]

People should always be winning match ups that are 60:40 or better in their favor solidly imo.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Why exactly. Do explain why they should have a 100% chance of winning said MU.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think it's really stupid to use precise MU values. I don't even like saying a MU is +1, for example (I usually say +0 at worst, +1 at best).

Player counters, skill level and chance all play way too big a role imo.

 

[Dark.Pch]

sucks. is godly.

Peach sucks and is a bad character. I see it now. Sonic is better then her.

 

[Luigi player]

Why exactly. Do explain why they should have a 100% chance of winning said MU.

It doesn't mean you have a 100 % chance of winning the MU.

Your character has an advantage over the other. Usually it is big enough to be pretty deciding.
It means you should win, but it depends on the skill of the players. Sometimes you SD, sometimes some random stuff happens, sometimes you get gimmicked, or a stage that you don't like gets CPed (or is bad for your character)...
These things can still get wins, but that shouldn't happen often (unless the players are inconsistent or the player with the worse char is better or something).

I personally would see most MUs as 100:0's (or 99/1's), ~50:50's and 0:100's if it was that way.

If a MU is really close I guess I can see it somewhat working though... but those would be 55:45 MUs to me (even though I'd still guess the char with the advantage should win more like ~70/100 matches...).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Mostly directed at Iota. But I'm sure you explained it better than what he would've typed.

 

[Iota]

I wasn't sure who you were directing it to so I just decided to wait till LP posted.