Official BBR Tier List v7

[| Big D |]

Kie loses to 9B, you can nair OoS Peach's dair (have to input it on the last hit of Peach's dair) if you're not directly underneath it in which case the best option is to roll.

 

[bubbaking]

So out of the space animals, Fox has a really good uair, Falco has a really good dair, and Wolf has a really good bair.

Chances that a hypothetical fourth space animal (Krystal?) would have a really good fair? Pretty high, I think.

Krystal's fair would definitely use a Marth length spear. It makes sense that she'd get the best fair, since I don't think she wants anyone behind, underneath, on top of, or inside her.

#ReallyBadJokes

i think he was just speaking of superlatives, as the only truly bad aerials between all of them are falco's fair and wolf's nair

Idk, I kinda feel like Wolf's dair doesn't have that many uses outside of random gimps that shouldn't happen anyway.

He can gimp at any given time when he recovers with either side b or up b because shine will cause popo to separate from nana and then it's a free shine>Js kill though that isn't even needed since shine tends to desynch them readily. 's laser goes right through blizzard wall unlike stopping it in it's track.

I'm not gonna pretend to understand this MU. However, I do have a few questions about what I just read. For one, are you saying that Wolf shines the ICs' recovery? Secondly, what is "Js"? Finally, don't the other lasers also go through the blizzard wall?

 

[Iota]

I am fairly sure Seagull meant jump shine from js.

All three of the spacie's lasers are transcendent, I think seagull was going along the lines of Fox's lasers don't do any knockback but I'd need confirmation.

 

[Gardex]

It just hit me that Wolf is actually a pretty good character

 

[bubbaking]

That's what BL Tier is for, to give you a chance to realize that those characters are actually decent.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think Zinoto was pretty right about DDD and Peach. DDD can wall Peach out pretty well, and Peach catching DDD = DDD catching Peach 'cause we can, you know, CG her. It's not like we're running, we just don't want to be hit (and neither do you, I presume).

I want you to think about what you just said carefully before I deal with this.

Meta Knight.
Tell me how Peach at top level should beat mk.

Edit: I don't think your bs actualy but if you want to make a book anyway.

Peach actually wants to stay near meta knight as much as she can. She does have a projectile but the use of it against someone like meta can leave her open for things just a tornado. She can not be throwing out alot of punches for meta can easily shut her moves down. Peach air moves in front of her are slow outside of nair. But you have to be close to hit with it. Her bair is good but that move can not beat any of meta knights air moves. She does not have much to stop meta in the air. And up-B just kills it all as well.

So if Peach wants to stand a chance, she has to stay close to meta knight most of the time. Which is the hard part. if Peach sits back, she gives him too much momentum. And he can started his typical BS with camping zoning with air attacks, tornado and even up-B. This makes it hard for me to land a hit. My options are not that good to stop any of that from a distance. If I am near meta knight and he throws out moves I have a better chance to punish him and get hits without giving him too much control. I have to use my jab pressure/mixup and make everything I do safe. The fact that I have to rely on something like this to beat a character is what makes this match up bad.

if meta knight short hops dairs, I can go in and full hop dair. it hits him right out of it. If he full hops dairs, I can glide toss under him and toss the turnip upward at the same time to follow up with a uptilt follow up that is guaranteed. if Peach is caught in the tornado, I can just hold up on the stick and Peach usually pops out, and i can then Nair meta out of the tornado. So that is one option she has for the move. Fsmash also claps meta out of it. Ftilt as well but I never had any luck with that one.

The only time I wanna waste time with turnips is when I am center stage and have meta near the ledge. I can slow meta down and make him wiff something. From there I can get close and start to get damage/pressure. Peach can not stay on meta knight all the time. Thats not what I am saying. She just can't be at a distance where he can get too much control and making it hard for me to get in and end him. trying to camp him leads to problems. Cause peach will usually be near the ledge. Peach defense options from mid range (Unless she has her back turned are bad. if I am in the corner with meta knight mid range, I have to be hella patient and not throw to many punches to get out of there. I can't fight him off mid range.

To get close to meta she does not wanna move in alot while through out attacks. Again, she will get snuffed out. She wants to get close to meta and close the gap. So he does not have a much control. This can be done with turnips to slow him down. When a turnip is tossed at someone in general, it will ALWAYS force some reaction. No matter what it is. It's gonna force something. This can be the time to open your enemy up, or close the gap depending on situation.

Staying on meta knight is hard and risky, but thats what i have to do. Her pressure and mixups up are what help deal with him out close to open him up and get hits. Being center stage is the best position to get some breathing room if thing get ugly for Peach.

Meta knight does not hit so hard ether so if I stay center stage, I would not die as quick as if I was near the ledge, he gets a few air attacks and then up-B for a stock. Same goes for up-B grounded. That move does not kill me until high %. Like 130-140% And Peach dies quick off the top. So if he ever gets the upper hand and I am at center stage, I have a better chance of survival and turning the match around.

Coming back on stage, peach usually wants to recover low. it becomes hard, yes, even for meta, to hit her when she recovers low. She also wants to be very patient when returning. Peach has slow moves in front, that can easy be snuffed out while landing. And panicing to an air dodge is something people want. Usually what I do is I don't do anything. I just drop below then at the last min, I up-B to saftey countering what meta tried to hit me with. I only air dodge if one is getting hasty and he will dish out a move like up-B. or else I know, my enemy is forcing a baiting, while he waits I am using that time to get at a good distance to recover. I only air dodge when I seriously have no choice. And I go right throw meta.
Other then that it is a game of chicken. Why will crack first. Some times I get away and guess right, other times I get punished. Ether way it is better then panicing to something right away and leave my self open for sure for a straight easy punish, stock.

To sum it up, for me to win. I have to stay close to him. Use turnips to move in slowly and force something that I can hopefully react too and punish. When I am in pressure and make things safe. I can not pressure and keep attacking. Even if I am in control. He can evade, and punish me of he gets by my attacks. Thats why safe pressure and mix ups are a must so I can react to things like this and even punish his evasion. I have to be obvservant to what is going. And what my actions are forcing meta to do. Then see how I can bait or captitalize on that to try and get some damage to take some stock. Leading to ending the match/set.

Now I explained all of this. There might be more things I have but I forgot. Might be a few things to make the match a lil better. I would have to look through my notes. But it's more mindgame,frame trap material. But this is the run down. Now the difficulty of doing it all? Hard as ****. Match up is stuff.

The rest is all on player. how they can adapt, stay focus, not get discouraged or anonyed and go for that possible win against something that is hard to deal with.

What I read:


Hi, I'm Dark Pch. I know everything about my character therefore you are wrong. I will continue on to be conceded and say you know nothing about Peach so it makes me look smarter. I am now going to theorycraft my way to victory, but I suck so I can't do anything.


but you are still wrong because I'm Dark Pch.

What you were thinking when reading my post

"Lololol, here we go, Dark.Pch again stating how Peach is sooooo good. How he thinks he knows it all when he is a bad player. Once again, Im not gonna read fully what he says and try to see it from his side. He could be making a point and such. I rather not hear him out. Let me just assume this typical image of him, then create a funny post to get some cheap lol and hype boosters from people of the community to show off and sound funny on the internet, lololololol"

You are not funny and that post was useless. Stop trying to get cheap laughs so you can feel good or show off infront of people for cheap laughs. if you are gonna insult or make fun of me, at least try harder and step up your material and put this high school nonsense down.

I thought ICs go even with/beat ROB.....

Edit: And what's the reasoning behind Peach? How is that not even? I know Peach also messed up the ICs in Melee, but that was probably for drastically different reasons. Still, the two similar MUs between Peach and ICs has piqued my curiosity.

Peach doesn't seem good enough overall to handle ICs that well. Sure she has good shield pressure, but haven't we seen top Peach players lose to non-top ICs. Only Peach I remember beating a good ICs was Kie beating Vinnie right? And didn't he also beat Vinnie in the Peach ditto? Might just be a player counter.

ROB feels a bit more believable, as he can take less risks while trying to separate and the kind of stupid stuff that usually holds him back is just standard for ICs anyway.

Toon Link? Results? I think Peach, ROB, Toon Link are just frustrating matchups for ICs because they can really harass while running away, but I don't think any of them win.

With IC, you all already know its about the grab. That's it. One grab = death. Players job is to kill that option in anyway possible in a match up. If they can't, then make it hard for them to grab you while you get damage, separate them,end the stock.

Peach has alot of ways to deal with this. For starters. if IC's wanna move in with bilzzards and use w/e setup or gimmick they have for that, I can stop that. Peach turnips go RIGHT THROUGH the move. Now there is where having turnips is important in this case. If I have a strong one and it goes through the blizzard, the knock back will be stronger. This will hit one of the IC's and separate then. When this happens. I can go in and pressure one of them. or just get damage. I could get a possible kill of the CPU, if not, not the CPU to the side bring my focus back to the player and pressure,mix ups, yadda yadda.

*** I think I can just jump into the blizzard and toad it. And the spores would separate them easily due to the cooldown time of the move. Even if they dysnce, One of then is gonna get hit, thus broken about due to the knockback spores have. Never tested this. I'll experiment later.

Ice block is also something that can be handled. One good thing about Peach turnips is they carve down. I can just jump/hover the ice block and toss at turnip (normal throw or smash matters due to distance with you and opponent.) And hit one of them. and if I have a strong turnip like the ditto one (does 16% I believe and has a good chance of popping up) easy separation and I can easily move in and do what I can to start problems.

if I go in on IC, they can not grab be on block. My spaced moves hard too much for them (anyone in this game really) to grab me. Their grab range is short too. Which makes it even worst. When pressures it becomes easier to land shield pokes and break then apart. Or bait an evasion and punish it. They can not grab me on shield. Only time this happens is:

- I fair and lagged (Yes, fair lags if you fall at thee wrong time. I can't right away, I am open for alot of frames)

- I fair at height I did not touch the ground for me to auto cancel and get a jab

- Double Jab

- Bair Non auto cancel (open for 4 frames)

- Misspaced dair

- Dsmash (players not realizing the size of the shield and that it wont shield poke)

Another way is a typical way I am sure you all have seen. Approaching with Dair, or turnip to fair/dair. Now this is bad, and this is where Peach players are giving IC a hella easy time to get in. IC can just go in and blizzard (unless the turnip is launched and hits them. They can just wait/evade it and then space blizzard and Peach moves in with an air attack)

Also her moves are slow in front. This is not gonna catch anyone really. People will just roll. if they do that you are not getting anywhere. Focre approaching with peach is lame. easy to escape from and most cases easy to punish. So if I have IC near the ledge and I am about center stage, I go in with the typical turnip>air attack, the enemy will most likely roll behind you. Which can leave you open. The match does not go anywhere for the peach player. And in IC case, free grabs. Peach is not suppose to approach IC this way. Really when IC are dysnc. This can leave Peach hella open for grab IC don't even have to work for. The method I explanied before are how peach can get in.

Side-B? Its easily punishable with Fsmash. its good when Peach forces mid/high recoveries with a turnip over her. Turnip judgle + Fsmash beat squall. Now on stage, if Peach gets cause in it, She can actually SDI out of it and float over IC (assuming you did not burn your float) And when the move is done, it's a free Bair/nair/dair. Fair too if they facing them at high % and you are in front of them hovering. I have done this many times. And if I do not float, I can SDI out of it and get a free dash attack or grab if I am fast enough when the move is done. if I SDI out of a dsynce side-B I can hit one IC and break them apart.

IC have good control when they are in mid range. I can't get turnips, and air approaches are not really safe ( I can still get in on them like this, but unless I know what the enemy is gonna do, its not really safe.) Here, I can get blizzard or ice blocked and don't have a good way to stop it. This leads to easy set ups and frame traps for grabs. Peach does have one option for blizzard ways near the ledge. Really if I am hanging from it. I can carry my invincibility from the ledge. Giving me a total of 7 frames or invincibility on stage where I can do w/e I want. Anything I do that is 7 frames or less can not be beating. Here is how it works:

- jump -> float gives a maximum of 10 frames invulnerability. If you decide to jump -> float -> land you'll have a max of 7 frames invincibility.

So I can jab, grab, dash attack or really anything and can't be touched. if I do a move that is slower then six frames, I would have to get up and be invincible when the attack connects. So the hitbox of the move is gone and my attack will connect while you suffer cooldown time. I Think I could do this to toad against blizzard/iceblock on the ledge and get away with it, I have to play around with this as well.


So with all that said we put in all the stuff Peach can do on IC and all the stuff they can on her. Who would have an easier time at exposing one another. A grab for IC is a stock, or else they have to work hard for them to get it. Peach can make it hard for them to get a grab. Spaced moved can not be grab and I can't get punished on block for it. Being pressured breaks IC apart. Making it impossible for a death grab. The Blizzard wall peach can deal with that with just one turnip. Goes right through it. And can lead to breaking apart IC. Hitting Peach with squall can lead to a counter and breaking them apart.
They can't do any attack nor grab out of shield to stop my pressure, they are forced to evade/block.

Now some might say "If IC get a grab and dont ,mess it up, thats a stock, match. Ok. That is true. You got it. But lets seriously be real here. With what I just said. The chances of grabbing a solid Peach who puts all these tools to use are hard to grab. And by then, you would have been separated, or lost a stock/gimped. If Peach does not mess up her spacinging, IC don't get grabs. Also, I outrange IC.


So diffuculty of things and and chances of things Peach has a better shot at taking the first stock and giving IC serious problems before they can even get a death grab.

Peach beats IC's

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Thread over. Dark Peach is right. Peach is nr 1.

 

[Player-1]

Guys, Dark Pch is clearly right about everything


















you know because he is Dark Pch and stuff

 

[Dark.Pch]

Kie loses to 9B, you can nair OoS Peach's dair (have to input it on the last hit of Peach's dair) if you're not directly underneath it in which case the best option is to roll.

No they can not. They would get hit with a Nair. if a peach gets hit with nair OoS, its cause she was floating too high where the nair would not hit you in time. This give you more time to counter attack.

IC nair is 6 frames. When you jump OoS you have to wait 4 frames cause of the squat animation. Frame 5 is where you can attack or air dodge.

6+4= 10 frames it takes your nair to come out of shield. My nair is three frames. So if I dair you and you nair OoS as I nair, you are gonna get hit out of your nair. You only get away with this if Peach stays floating and does another set dairs. Which is hella unsafe. This is only good if the opponent will stay there blocking. And most don't anyway, they would try to do things as you just said, and which they would eat a nair. I can bair as well after the dair to cross you up, and you can't punish that.

I can also stop that option if I just float and drop as the last hit box coming out. Then auto cancel.

Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: -3 (-5 hard landing) You still don't have enough time cause you will get slapped by 2 frames if you try or attempt to grab me.

So no, IC just can't do that. They will get punished for it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think the reason why ICs are so high up is because most players don't really play to win. The only players who really take advantage of most of ICs' weaknesses are top MK mains. It's pretty easy to ledge camp ICs especially if you abuse this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyFtJDxsqMs&t=3m15s
Also, most other none top MK players suck at gimping ICs' recovery

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

is bubbaking...

DocKing?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Was about to comment on Yoshi vs IC being even. But then I noticed I was a page behind so never mind.
Also, you're not the first one to possibly think that, SFP.

 

[Naridax]

Now, I understand why people hate theorycrafters...

 

[C.J.]

They give good theorycrafters a bad rep

/hasn't read anything after my last post

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Peach beats ICs, Diddy Kong, Olimar, Wario and DDD and goes even with Snake and Falco. She only slightly loses to MK and Marth.

True story.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Play gay against ICs = profit.

Or just play a no risk game and din 't attack in a way that leads into a grab.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Peach beats ICs, Diddy Kong, Olimar, Wario and DDD and goes even with Snake and Falco. She only slightly loses to MK and Marth.

True story.

I more or less could believe the first part (could argue for even/beat)... But then you said Peach-Snake is even and lost all credibility.

 

[Life]

If you think Bubbaking is Doc King, you've forgotten what Doc King was like.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's not Doc King.

*mod abuse*

 

[da K.I.D.]

If you think Bubbaking is Doc King, you've forgotten what Doc King was like.

word.
*shudders*

hope he never comes back

 

[Naridax]

What ever happened to that guy anyway?

 

[deepseadiva]

I more or less could believe the first part (could argue for even/beat)... But then you said Peach-Snake is even and lost all credibility.

Peach can point out and work on a lot of Snake's weaknesses.

Abusable in the air. The holes in his projectiles game. His stature and weight making him ideal combo materiel. She can also jab away EVERYTHING he has on the ground, which is very nice.

I've always thought Snake was the unshakable #2 in this game - but his slower game plan is starting show. He can lose to more versatile characters.

 

[Neon!]

Neon, you're wrong. For proof, take a replay of you playing the CPU off your Wii and play it on someone else's. Replays only record player inputs and the random seed(s), and let everything else (including bot decisions) take care of itself--they'd desync if that were the case.

Replays will always play the same way on any wii for the reasons you stated, that has nothing to do with what I was asking. It's common knowledge however that cpu's act differently on different consoles because they attempt to mimic the players movement. That’s why a cpu peach on a new Brawl file would never do anything like this. I’ve also heard of cpu ddd’s successfully chain grabbing once or twice or at least attempting to.

I was just unsure if this mimicry transferred to nana at all when she was separated, like if a player had a tendency to airdodge often after being juggled maybe that would transfer to nana. I’m beginning to doubt that that is the case however.

 

[KRDsonic]

I'm not sure if the computer mimic thing is true or not but I've been chain grabbed 3 grabs in a row by a CPU falco before

 

[Dabuz]

Dark Peach puts too much in his posts, I never bother reading them :D

 

[Seagull Joe]

Idk, I kinda feel like Wolf's dair doesn't have that many uses outside of random gimps that shouldn't happen anyway.

I'm not gonna pretend to understand this MU. However, I do have a few questions about what I just read. For one, are you saying that Wolf shines the ICs' recovery? Secondly, what is "Js"? Finally, don't the other lasers also go through the blizzard wall?

's Dair is great for damage because it autocancels and has a huge hitbox. I wouldn't say it doesn't have many uses.

I am fairly sure Seagull meant jump shine from js.

All three of the spacie's lasers are transcendent, I think seagull was going along the lines of Fox's lasers don't do any knockback but I'd need confirmation.

lasers aren't the definition of transcendent as far as I know because they don't beat anything. They just go through everything without beating anything unlike /'s projectile. And yes Js=Jump shine.

It just hit me that Wolf is actually a pretty good character

Not compared to the actual HT. He's just another that can reliably camp.

Dark Peach puts too much in his posts, I never bother reading them :D

I don't really read them either because they're incredibly long, but I respect his passion.

 

[Tesh]

Replays will always play the same way on any wii for the reasons you stated, that has nothing to do with what I was asking. It's common knowledge however that cpu's act differently on different consoles because they attempt to mimic the players movement. That’s why a cpu peach on a new Brawl file would never do anything like this. I’ve also heard of cpu ddd’s successfully chain grabbing once or twice or at least attempting to.

I was just unsure if this mimicry transferred to nana at all when she was separated, like if a player had a tendency to airdodge often after being juggled maybe that would transfer to nana. I’m beginning to doubt that that is the case however.

common knowledge or common misconception? there are alot of theories about this floating around and ive never seen anyone with proof either way.

the AI responds to your inputs, so as your playstyle becomes more complex and technical, you will obviously get the impression that the AI is learning and improving. The AI is constantly inputting moves even when they cant come out. my wii is 4 years old and my computer fox still prioritizes hitting me with up b over actually grabbing the ledge.

what life said could easily be proved (or rather disproved) if people can really decipher replay data or get computer to react differently in the same replay (applied to different models/stages)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Peach can point out and work on a lot of Snake's weaknesses.

Abusable in the air. The holes in his projectiles game. His stature and weight making him ideal combo materiel. She can also jab away EVERYTHING he has on the ground, which is very nice.

I've always thought Snake was the unshakable #2 in this game - but his slower game plan is starting show. He can lose to more versatile characters.

Most of Peach's Matchups look like this, she is a great character with tons and tons of tools for almost any situation...
But in practice, it comes down to the fact that she can't reliably score a kill on Snake, while dying pretty early due to Snake being Snake.

IMO, she loses the MU just because of that, but not too badly because of those tools. -1.
That said, I know little about Peach, and my experience is limited to when I mained her back in 2009, and that one time I got 3-stocked... so eh.

 

[bubbaking]

I didn't read everything, but whoever said I was Doc King must have forgotten. Doc King and I used to post around the same time period. My username has never changed. And I don't think DDD is some kind of god. And I actually have relevant MU experience. I really don't see how we're similar... (-_-)

And for the record, do you think I'm Doc King because I asked questions to clarify things about MUs that I don't know (and clearly say I don't know)? Because that's all I've been doing for the past page. Don't really see what's wrong with that.....

Edit: No offense to him, but if you combined Dark.Pch and me (just 'cause I'm a DDD), then maybe you'd come up with something remotely close to Doc King.....maybe...

 

[Life]

Replays will always play the same way on any wii for the reasons you stated, that has nothing to do with what I was asking. It's common knowledge however that cpu's act differently on different consoles because they attempt to mimic the players movement. That’s why a cpu peach on a new Brawl file would never do anything like this. I’ve also heard of cpu ddd’s successfully chain grabbing once or twice or at least attempting to.

I was just unsure if this mimicry transferred to nana at all when she was separated, like if a player had a tendency to airdodge often after being juggled maybe that would transfer to nana. I’m beginning to doubt that that is the case however.

100% common misconception (I make a point of correcting it every time I see it) and it has EVERYTHING to do with what I said.

If CPUs acted differently on different Brawl files, replays would desync. But they don't desync. CPUs act the same on every file.

Tesh, for hard evidence, find an actual edited AI file (I know there's a CG spamming falco floating around), throw it on your Wii, and load a replay of the appropriate character's CPU--it will desync. Different AI file being used causes desyncs, therefore replays load the AI, therefore the AI is the same on all copies of Brawl to prevent desyncs.

Not complicated.

 

[bubbaking]

Was about to comment on Yoshi vs IC being even. But then I noticed I was a page behind so never mind.

Actually, please share. ICs are a mostly foreign character to me. Most ICs matches I see are just between notable ICs and MK's, since those are the only ones worth watching.

Peach beats ICs, Diddy Kong, Olimar, Wario and DDD and goes even with Snake and Falco. She only slightly loses to MK and Marth.

True story.

I really don't see how she beats DDD. They both have high-priority moves and the ability to rack up a lot of damage on a single punish. Peach can't kill and DDD's super heavy. Even from the times I've played this MU, I don't see how it's any worse than even.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I really don't see how she beats DDD. They both have high-priority moves and the ability to rack up a lot of damage on a single punish. Peach can't kill and DDD's super heavy. Even from the times I've played this MU, I don't see how it's any worse than even.

Dude he does not think that or anything else in his post. He is just acting childish and acting like an ***. That should have been clear.

outside of this, vex told me something long ago that I been thinking about that could make it in Peach favor. I have not really worked with it. I would agree for now that's it's even.

Also I had a change of mind with a new method of breaking match ups down and reviewing them. I been saying for a while that Peach Beats diddy. While looking into things fully, I have come to say that it's even or in diddys favor/-1. This may not be my final word on this. But me breaking things down and looking at EVERYTHING FROM BOTH SIDES, Peach is not looking like she beats diddy. I am far from done looking at this match up. And most of the things that Peach can do in general and should be doing against diddy I have not applied it all yet. But for now, she does not beat him. It's ether even or a small advantage for diddy.

 

[Luigisama]

No they can not. They would get hit with a Nair. if a peach gets hit with nair OoS, its cause she was floating too high where the nair would not hit you in time. This give you more time to counter attack.

IC nair is 6 frames. When you jump OoS you have to wait 4 frames cause of the squat animation. Frame 5 is where you can attack or air dodge.

6+4= 10 frames it takes your nair to come out of shield. My nair is three frames. So if I dair you and you nair OoS as I nair, you are gonna get hit out of your nair. You only get away with this if Peach stays floating and does another set dairs. Which is hella unsafe. This is only good if the opponent will stay there blocking. And most don't anyway, they would try to do things as you just said, and which they would eat a nair. I can bair as well after the dair to cross you up, and you can't punish that.

I can also stop that option if I just float and drop as the last hit box coming out. Then auto cancel.

Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: -3 (-5 hard landing) You still don't have enough time cause you will get slapped by 2 frames if you try or attempt to grab me.

So no, IC just can't do that. They will get punished for it.

I think this is true because it makes no sense that I can power shield peach's dair or fair then she can (I'm probably wrong on this) auto cancel to nair so the PS was pointless unless I hold shield.

Also Dark pch. Does peach have a grab release to re grab on metaknight? I remember seeing Praxis(peach) v.s Kimidori(mk) and Praxis grab released him across the stage.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think this is true because it makes no sense that I can power shield peach's dair or fair then she can (I'm probably wrong on this) auto cancel to nair so the PS was pointless unless I hold shield.

Also Dark pch. Does peach have a grab release to re grab on metaknight? I remember seeing Praxis(peach) v.s Kimidori(mk) and Praxis grab released him across the stage.

No she does not. The only thing peach can do out of a grab release with near perfect timing is dash attack. it hits with the second weak part which does about 5% and the knock back is terrible. He barly goes anywhere.

 

[Zinoto]

I don't even know why people bother with Dark Peach. Every time someone brings up a point about he shuts them down like he knows everything.

See whats in red? This is the type of stuff I deal with and correct all the time. This is the type of mentallity from the smash community and more that think she is bad or not worthy of something. This stuff happans all the time without people doing their homework. Now i can understand its an opinion. Thats fine. But most people have this common opinion cause of what its read and people seriously not finding things out.

The type of stuff you deal with, my ***. This IS the reason why people lose those MUs. Before I switched mains to , LAST YEAR, I mained and . I know the MUs. I do my homework, it's why I'm starting to take names now. The type of mentalities that you deal with and try to refute are ones that normally are right. That's the main reason I switched to . Peach had cool combos and nice strings, but at the end of the day approaching was a ton of work, getting walled out was common, and I was just getting flat out beat.

But you would not know how Peach can actually catch someone like snake, DDD (dude is too easy) Hell, even falco. with falco I actually created a way to stop him from running. I been experimenting on this with people. 80% of the time there is something I wish I would have thought of long ago to stop them from running. This is a trick that only works on fox and falco. its based on common sense with a lil creativity.

I do know. It's hard. Sure can catch , but then she comes across her other problem: the fact that she gets walled out. With all these tricks and stuff you seem to have, I would think that you would place or at least have any evidence to back up any of your claims. This is the second time you wrote a freaking page about your opinionated, whimsical bs on how you're some all-mighty tyrant of . I use these exact same tactics against and I usually win the match because of it. Why would I let you tell me otherwise? I'm glad you have all these neat tricks tucked away in your arsenal, but until you can show me that any of them are more than just tricks, get off your stupid pedastool.

Manly, you don't know match ups from peach side. You have no idea how I would use my tools to deal with these said situation. You and alot of other people go by what the media tells you, in stead of sayin "hmm, well I wanna find out for sure. They can be right, but they could also be wrong, so let me learn all that i can learn"

Well, if you won something with all those tools you claim to have, maybe I'd believe you.

Like if I was asked to get into a debate on Peach vs ROB, I can't say anything. Because I am not confortable with fighting ROB. I don't have a method/plan, strat to fighting him. I can't say if he wins, its even or she wins. I'm not gonna speak on something I dont know much about. Even if Peach players and rob players came to some agreement. I still can't and wont say anything. Im have nothing to go with in my mind when I fight ROB. I mostly go on player habits. I don't go by how the match up goes. and options. So until I feel fine with ROB, I will never but my 2 sense in the match up. Cause simple, I just don't know and always go in blind. No matter how many times I have fought ROB, Im still not confident that I actually know what to do and not do.

Whatever.

I asked this cause I like to get a general idea of why people think such a thing, and the answers are usually a like. And it tells me people don't take the time to find out stuff on thier own. And just go by judeging a book by its cover along with what the media says.

if you or anyone else thinks im BS, try me. Give me one situation or match up that you think hinders Peach and makes it seem like she can't win the match up. it can be a small detail, and watch me tear it into pieces and reform it into a text book. Anyone try me and I'll prove my point and also why results seriously don't tell me how good a character truly is

I think you're BS. Stop writing books on theory and start applying that stuff. You seem to love to call any opinion other than yours wrong and cover it in a page of nonsense. I may not be right (I'm fine with that, that's why the title labels this a DISCUSSION), but I'll be damned if you think you're gonna try and tear apart my posts like I know absolutely nothing about and you're just a god with the character.

 

[Luigisama]

No she does not. The only thing peach can do out of a grab release with near perfect timing is dash attack. it hits with the second weak part which does about 5% and the knock back is terrible. He barly goes anywhere.

wow kimidori is bad lol

 

[Judo777]

's Dair is great for damage because it autocancels and has a huge hitbox. I wouldn't say it doesn't have many uses.

lasers aren't the definition of transcendent as far as I know because they don't beat anything. They just go through everything without beating anything unlike /'s projectile. And yes Js=Jump shine.

Not compared to the actual HT. He's just another that can reliably camp.

I don't really read them either because they're incredibly long, but I respect his passion.

No foxes lasers are trancendent. Trancendent doesn't necessarily mean it beats anything. All trancendent means is that it does not interact with other hitboxes. Meaning it cannot clank with anything. It just so happens that MOST transcendent hitboxes are extended far from the characters body and as a result beat a lot of things.

For reference Samus' charge beam is not transcendent but beats most things (but a charged Marth Fsmash can clank it).

Conversely (I believe this is true i tested a while back) the first hitbox of pits utilt is transcendent but its very low priority (its just really fast at frame 2). If that's not true another example is Ganon's Dair is transcendent, but is not that high priority (its scary but not that high priority).

One of the simplest tests for transcendence is if it can hit a Samus missle and destroy it (not just you getting hit by it) its not transcendent.

 

[ぱみゅ]

"Priority".... that one word....

 

[bubbaking]

I think I get what Kyokoro might be hinting at...

Conversely (I believe this is true i tested a while back) the first hitbox of pits utilt is transcendent but its very low priority (its just really fast at frame 2). If that's not true another example is Ganon's Dair is transcendent, but is not that high priority (its scary but not that high priority).

I'm not gonna lie. This part makes absolutely no sense to me...

 

[Tesh]

transcendent priority is just about range. big sword + transcendent is good because people cant clink with the edge of your sword like what happens to marth alot. 0 range like pit's uptilt is bad because it wont clink like most fast moves can.

didnt know ganon's dair was transcendent, i could have sworn i'd stomped out projectiles with it.

lasers dont beat anything, they just interrupt moves because they cant be stopped.