Official BBR Tier List v7

[Zinoto]

IMO is near the top of mid tier. She has excellent pressure tools on shield and string large clumps of damage on many characters, but gets walled out insanely hard.

MU-wise:

Peach has about the same MU spread as or (both of which are mid tier) in terms of difficulty. She loses to characters like , , , , , all for the exact same reason, she gets walled out and cannot catch them. She loses to the majority of top and high tier (save 1 or 2 MUs like ) and either loses or goes even with borderline tier.

Character-wise:

Her ability to rack up damage is almost nullified by her inability to actually get in on a lot of characters and the fact that she is floaty causing her to die significantly earlier than others. She cannot kill worth crap. She has trouble approaching characters that have projectiles to control he aerial movement and although she can combo pretty well, also gets combo'd fairly easily. Juggling her is also a joke since she has poor horizontal mobility and a bad airdodge. Also, she doesn't have many options to force approaches and since she has a slow horizontal mobility suffers when she has to chase someone down.

Player-wise:

Now the only players doing anything notable are Kyon and Silly Kyle (and maybe Mikey every now and then). Silly Kyle places well in his region consistently (dropping a set or two here and there), but hasn't taken any big names and Mikey is busy with his life, so he doesn't attend much anymore (even when he did he didn't travel OoS). Her results are pretty much stagnant (especially seeing as Illmatic is no longer attending tournaments atm) and nothing notable his coming out of that character. If anything , , or should be higher on the tier list before .

This is just a brief reasoning of what I think, but in short there is definitely no reason to move her up on the tier list (especially if you think that results with a character shouldn't matter). Saying that she should be moved up when she doesn't have any results to prove she deserves her spot is just crazy and straight up theorycraft. Results DEFINITELY matte. I'm not saying she should be dropped to like low tier or something, but she is definitely a mid tier character at best.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't see ICs losing to Yoshi. I understand it's not easy for ICs by any means but I would've guessed it's the same evenish or slightly IC advantage they also have against Peach and ZSS.

inb4ZSS&Peachmains

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh right dash attack, I forgot about that. Definitely his worst move lol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't see ICs losing to Yoshi. I understand it's not easy for ICs by any means but I would've guessed it's the same evenish or slightly IC advantage they also have against Peach and ZSS.

inb4ZSS&Peachmains

Oh, oh. I see what you did there. You did this thing, where like, you give a contrary opinion and then you pre-empt any person's attempt at arguing with you by mocking them in advance for arguing with you. Because that way, you're somehow more correct in advance.

Wow, weird, when I look at it that way, you seem even more condescending than usual. >_>

 

[Dark.Pch]

IMO is near the top of mid tier. She has excellent pressure tools on shield and string large clumps of damage on many characters, but gets walled out insanely hard.

MU-wise:

Peach has about the same MU spread as or (both of which are mid tier) in terms of difficulty. She loses to characters like , , , , , all for the exact same reason, she gets walled out and cannot catch them. She loses to the majority of top and high tier (save 1 or 2 MUs like ) and either loses or goes even with borderline tier.

Character-wise:

Her ability to rack up damage is almost nullified by her inability to actually get in on a lot of characters and the fact that she is floaty causing her to die significantly earlier than others. She cannot kill worth crap. She has trouble approaching characters that have projectiles to control he aerial movement and although she can combo pretty well, also gets combo'd fairly easily. Juggling her is also a joke since she has poor horizontal mobility and a bad airdodge. Also, she doesn't have many options to force approaches and since she has a slow horizontal mobility suffers when she has to chase someone down.

Player-wise:

Now the only players doing anything notable are Kyon and Silly Kyle (and maybe Mikey every now and then). Silly Kyle places well in his region consistently (dropping a set or two here and there), but hasn't taken any big names and Mikey is busy with his life, so he doesn't attend much anymore (even when he did he didn't travel OoS). Her results are pretty much stagnant (especially seeing as Illmatic is no longer attending tournaments atm) and nothing notable his coming out of that character. If anything , , or should be higher on the tier list before .

This is just a brief reasoning of what I think, but in short there is definitely no reason to move her up on the tier list (especially if you think that results with a character shouldn't matter). Saying that she should be moved up when she doesn't have any results to prove she deserves her spot is just crazy and straight up theorycraft. Results DEFINITELY matte. I'm not saying she should be dropped to like low tier or something, but she is definitely a mid tier character at best.

See whats in red? This is the type of stuff I deal with and correct all the time. This is the type of mentallity from the smash community and more that think she is bad or not worthy of something. This stuff happans all the time without people doing their homework. Now i can understand its an opinion. Thats fine. But most people have this common opinion cause of what its read and people seriously not finding things out.

But you would not know how Peach can actually catch someone like snake, DDD (dude is too easy) Hell, even falco. with falco I actually created a way to stop him from running. I been experimenting on this with people. 80% of the time there is something I wish I would have thought of long ago to stop them from running. This is a trick that only works on fox and falco. its based on common sense wih a lil creativity.

Manly, you don't know match ups from peach side. You have no idea how I would use my tools to deal with these said situation. You and alot of other people go by what the media tells you, in stead of sayin "hmm, well I wanna find out for sure. They can be right, but they could also be wrong, so let me learn all that i can learn"

Like if I was asked to get into a debate on Peach vs ROB, I can't say anything. Because I am not confortable with fighting ROB. I don't have a method/plan, strat to fighting him. I can't say if he wins, its even or she wins. I'm not gonna speak on something I dont know much about. Even if Peach players and rob players came to some agreement. I still can't and wont say anything. Im have nothing to go with in my mind when I fight ROB. I mostly go on player habits. I don't go by how the match up goes. and options. So until I feel fine with ROB, I will never but my 2 sense in the match up. Cause simple, I just don't know and always go in blind. No matter how many times I have fought ROB, Im still not confident that I actually know what to do and not do.

I asked this cause I like to get a general idea of why people think such a thing, and the answers are usually a like. And it tells me people don't take the time to find out stuff on thier own. And just go by judeging a book by its cover along with what the media says.

if you or anyone else thinks im BS, try me. Give me one situation or match up that you think hinders Peach and makes it seem like she can't win the match up. it can be a small detail, and watch me tear it into pieces and reform it into a text book. Anyone try me and I'll prove my point and also why results seriously don't tell me how good a character truly is

 

[bubbaking]

I think Snake is so good just 'cause he's super heavy. All of his successful attributes go back to that one thing..... (-_-)

 

[infiniteV115]

Well even if he was light, he'd still be good due to his great damage output and kill power.

He'd be a lot worse sure (probably high tier) but he'd still be decent.

 

[bubbaking]

Still, even his damage output is magnified by his weight. A lot of his damage output comes from multiple situations where you don't want to just smack him because a grenade is in the way. You know if that grenade goes off and hits both of you, that's technically a trade, and Snake wins virtually ALL trades because of his weight. So it's either you go in and hit him and get damage from a trade, which leaves Snake better off 'cause of weight, or you don't go in and you suffer a bunch of damage from trying to be patient while you look for an open window during which a grenade or similar explosive isn't covering Snake.

Edit: So many times I go in and grab Snake but there's an explosive so I can't dthrow without hurting myself (and for some unknown reason that only God knows, DDD's lighter than Snake) and putting myself into a position to be uaired or baired. I'm forced to concede damage and just go with a f/b/uthrow.

Probably me because I can rattle off probably like a dozen characters that have unexplored tech that isnt being used in tournaments (DDDs buffered pivot infinite and buffered up smash, sonics jab lock and footstool set ups, jab bair from ike, peach aerials, pit arrow stuff) but until it can be consistently used in tournaments, and shown that it can actually CHANGE tournament matches and matchups then it doesnt need to be and CANT be considered for a tier list because theres no way to know the real world implications of those things.

Hey, hey, hey, I thought we proved that DDDs can buffer those usmashes in tournament just fine!

The move could be better, but it has its uses. Its 4 frames, very disjointed, and connects at very useful angles. One of my favorite uses for it is as a shield pressure move, esp against an opponent on a platform. Tip them with uair, then double jump back with the multihit bair thatll eat their shield and have a strong chance at a shield poke. If it doesnt, the moves disjointed and mobile enough to escape punishment. For some reason ESAM prefers to use dair for platform pressure.

Pika's bair's only 4 frames? (O_o) It always struck me as much longer than that.....

But you would not know how Peach can actually catch someone like snake, DDD (dude is too easy) Hell, even falco.

I think Zinoto was pretty right about DDD and Peach. DDD can wall Peach out pretty well, and Peach catching DDD = DDD catching Peach 'cause we can, you know, CG her. It's not like we're running, we just don't want to be hit (and neither do you, I presume).

 

[da K.I.D.]

ftilt is a great move imo, his worst move is probably dash attack. Also the cg isnt that hard, pikpik is just lazy

nah son, dont do that. we name drop the fk outta PIKAPIKA out here FK that guy.

but yea, you right, I could get him to practice Brawl with me again if there was ANYBODY else to play with besides the two of us in this city.

 

[GOofyGV]

if you or anyone else thinks im BS, try me. Give me one situation or match up that you think hinders Peach and makes it seem like she can't win the match up. it can be a small detail, and watch me tear it into pieces and reform it into a text book. Anyone try me and I'll prove my point and also why results seriously don't tell me how good a character truly is

Meta Knight.
Tell me how Peach at top level should beat mk.

Edit: I don't think your bs actualy but if you want to make a book anyway.

 

[Player-1]

See whats in red? This is the type of stuff I deal with and correct all the time. This is the type of mentallity from the smash community and more that think she is bad or not worthy of something. This stuff happans all the time without people doing their homework. Now i can understand its an opinion. Thats fine. But most people have this common opinion cause of what its read and people seriously not finding things out.

But you would not know how Peach can actually catch someone like snake, DDD (dude is too easy) Hell, even falco. with falco I actually created a way to stop him from running. I been experimenting on this with people. 80% of the time there is something I wish I would have thought of long ago to stop them from running. This is a trick that only works on fox and falco. its based on common sense wih a lil creativity.

Manly, you don't know match ups from peach side. You have no idea how I would use my tools to deal with these said situation. You and alot of other people go by what the media tells you, in stead of sayin "hmm, well I wanna find out for sure. They can be right, but they could also be wrong, so let me learn all that i can learn"

Like if I was asked to get into a debate on Peach vs ROB, I can't say anything. Because I am not confortable with fighting ROB. I don't have a method/plan, strat to fighting him. I can't say if he wins, its even or she wins. I'm not gonna speak on something I dont know much about. Even if Peach players and rob players came to some agreement. I still can't and wont say anything. Im have nothing to go with in my mind when I fight ROB. I mostly go on player habits. I don't go by how the match up goes. and options. So until I feel fine with ROB, I will never but my 2 sense in the match up. Cause simple, I just don't know and always go in blind. No matter how many times I have fought ROB, Im still not confident that I actually know what to do and not do.

I asked this cause I like to get a general idea of why people think such a thing, and the answers are usually a like. And it tells me people don't take the time to find out stuff on thier own. And just go by judeging a book by its cover along with what the media says.

if you or anyone else thinks im BS, try me. Give me one situation or match up that you think hinders Peach and makes it seem like she can't win the match up. it can be a small detail, and watch me tear it into pieces and reform it into a text book. Anyone try me and I'll prove my point and also why results seriously don't tell me how good a character truly is

What I read:


Hi, I'm Dark Pch. I know everything about my character therefore you are wrong. I will continue on to be conceded and say you know nothing about Peach so it makes me look smarter. I am now going to theorycraft my way to victory, but I suck so I can't do anything.


but you are still wrong because I'm Dark Pch.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Bubba. its still not consistent enough for me. ive never seen someone do it 5 times in a row without messing up. and thats what I consider consistent. like, if someone did it as much as sonics do spindash bair, or back air down smash with meta knight. i would concede.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh, oh. I see what you did there. You did this thing, where like, you give a contrary opinion and then you pre-empt any person's attempt at arguing with you by mocking them in advance for arguing with you. Because that way, you're somehow more correct in advance.

Wow, weird, when I look at it that way, you seem even more condescending than usual. >_>

Wow, why would you think something like *that* about me?!

You're totally right btw.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

What I read:


Hi, I'm Dark Pch. I know everything about my character therefore you are wrong. I will continue on to be conceded and say you know nothing about Peach so it makes me look smarter. I am now going to theorycraft my way to victory, but I suck so I can't do anything.


but you are still wrong because I'm Dark Pch.

 

[Espy Rose]

I was actually going to reply with that gif too, but I figured I'd let someone else get a shot at it.

 

[Neon!]

I'm not sure IC's deserve to be second on the tier list yet, it would be funny seeing a character who loses to peach, ROB and toon link as 2nd though....

 

[bubbaking]

I thought ICs go even with/beat ROB.....

Edit: And what's the reasoning behind Peach? How is that not even? I know Peach also messed up the ICs in Melee, but that was probably for drastically different reasons. Still, the two similar MUs between Peach and ICs has piqued my curiosity.

 

[Neon!]

Why ROB wins/goes even against IC's

Why peach wins/goes even against IC's

 

[Tesh]

Peach doesn't seem good enough overall to handle ICs that well. Sure she has good shield pressure, but haven't we seen top Peach players lose to non-top ICs. Only Peach I remember beating a good ICs was Kie beating Vinnie right? And didn't he also beat Vinnie in the Peach ditto? Might just be a player counter.

ROB feels a bit more believable, as he can take less risks while trying to separate and the kind of stupid stuff that usually holds him back is just standard for ICs anyway.

Toon Link? Results? I think Peach, ROB, Toon Link are just frustrating matchups for ICs because they can really harass while running away, but I don't think any of them win.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ROB is the only one out of those I can see beating ICs. Toon Link loses and idk why people claim that Peach wins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSsdyZoqdZo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFFpHUd1rO0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dLN79RZeVQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRqP4xRSrJo

 

[C.J.]

What I read:


Hi, I'm Dark Pch. I know everything about my character therefore you are wrong. I will continue on to be conceded and say you know nothing about Peach so it makes me look smarter. I am now going to theorycraft my way to victory, but I suck so I can't do anything.


but you are still wrong because I'm Dark Pch.

That kinda applies to me though

 

[Neon!]

MJG vs vinnie is the only set I've seen between top players in that matchup.

At the very least rob, peach and TL go even with IC's as well as Wolf and Yoshi apparently.

 

[Player-1]

no CJ cuz you actually humor the person by acknowledging that they might have a point






but then in the back of your mind it's like "lol nope"

 

[Tesh]

Gnes used Toon Link against ESAM at WHOBO as well. Toon Link is pretty vulnerable in the air as long as you arent always going for his landings and ICs packs quite a punch with anti air.

 

[bubbaking]

How in the world do the ICs beat Fox +3 and Falco +2, but they only go even with Wolf?

Edit: I can definitely understand Yoshi, though...

 

[NickRiddle]

Wolf's bair is really good is how.

 

[bubbaking]

But so is Falco's...and Fox's is pretty decent too.

 

[Tesh]

those dont cover your landing nearly as well. They dont have the airspeed to really retreat their bairs safely while still threatening to land it first.

 

[bubbaking]

Why peach wins/goes even against IC's

I saw Vinnie drop the CG 7 times out of all 7 attempts that he had. Two of those CGs (the 3rd and the last) were at death %'s. All CGs were dropped before he got any decent amount of damage out of them. The Peach's play certainly was impressive, but he got off really lucky a bunch of times. Your play has to be air-tight against the ICs because they should be killing you every time they get a grab. ICs have already proven that they can consistently do 0-to-death CGs. Assuming that the Peach could have died several times during that match, I don't think it's adequate cited proof of a 0/+1 MU for her. The ROB vid was a different story entirely. He played out the entire match while being grabbed only once, I believe. It also seemed like he could camp better and take care of Nana more reliably once they were separated.

#BSingYourProofIntoObscuritySince2010

 

[da K.I.D.]

How in the world do the ICs beat Fox +3 and Falco +2, but they only go even with Wolf?

Same way pikachu does bro

 

[Life]

Infinite combo?

Doesn't matter;
STILL EVEN

(Yes, I have the picture, I just don't remember the URL and don't feel like uploading it.)

 

[bubbaking]

Same way pikachu does bro

But Pika actually beats all three of them.....badly! He doesn't just destroy two of them and randomly go even with the last one.

 

[Neon!]

I'm not knowledgeable on the Wolf vs IC matchup but I'd imagine wolf does significantly better than fox or falco because of his faster aerial speed, safer bair and his more useful shine.

 

[Life]

So out of the space animals, Fox has a really good uair, Falco has a really good dair, and Wolf has a really good bair.

Chances that a hypothetical fourth space animal (Krystal?) would have a really good fair? Pretty high, I think.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

+2 wolf, obviously

 

[Seagull Joe]

The reason is even with (Though I can never decide between -1 or 0, but results heavily indicate 0) is because 's aerial mobility allows him to move around and avoid stuff. He can gimp at any given time when he recovers with either side b or up b because shine will cause popo to separate from nana and then it's a free shine>Js kill though that isn't even needed since shine tends to desynch them readily. 's laser goes right through blizzard wall unlike stopping it in it's track. can safely attack 's shield with Bair/Fair and even Usmash (If used correctly because it pushes out of shield grab range or stabs ). And last, but not least, 's Dthrow has a hurtbox outside of itself so it'll hit both climbers if used and send only one of them offstage with the other one just pissed off.

can't space super efficiently on shield. He camps with laser and then has to go in and somehow land a move to get in the air or at a time he can Utilt (Shad/Dair). lacks aerial mobility and safe pokes. His saving grace is that he can SHDL from a distance, but his side b can be intercepted really easily with Utilt/Ice block/Blizzard wall.

Basically 's game of camp and go in with Utilt/Usmash doesn't work well and 's camp game of SHDL/Iap is negated too.

For further explanation, I'd suggest asking Esam/DeLux (Both players who have fought 's and conveniently have losing records to loool).

So out of the space animals, Fox has a really good uair, Falco has a really good dair, and Wolf has a really good bair.

Chances that a hypothetical fourth space animal (Krystal?) would have a really good fair? Pretty high, I think.

and 's Bair is great too. Are you honestly saying a frame 3 Bair that frame traps () or a powerhouse one () are bad?

 

[Tesh]

So out of the space animals, Fox has a really good uair, Falco has a really good dair, and Wolf has a really good bair.

Chances that a hypothetical fourth space animal (Krystal?) would have a really good fair? Pretty high, I think.

You mean Fox has the best Dair and Falco has the best Uair right? Fox Dair and Falco Uair are amazing good combo moves held back by poor horizontal airspeed really.

I guess Slippy could be the space animal with the great nair. Probably something quick OoS to..."get this guy off me"


@ seagull, i think he was just speaking of superlatives, as the only truly bad aerials between all of them are falco's fair and wolf's nair

 

[Neon!]

I know that cpu's act differently on each wii because they attempt to mimic player movement. Meaning that a cpu peach on my wii for example would probably be "better" than a cpu peach on a wii on which brawl had not been played at all.

Does anyone know if this cpu mimicry extends to nana at all when she is seperated?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I think Zinoto was pretty right about DDD and Peach. DDD can wall Peach out pretty well, and Peach catching DDD = DDD catching Peach 'cause we can, you know, CG her. It's not like we're running, we just don't want to be hit (and neither do you, I presume).

That's why the Peach mu from the DDD perspective seems even. What peach can dish out in sheer combo ability DDD makes up for in CG ability. Both characters have pretty good priority moves. Hell I'm not surprised Kie was throwing out so many Dair's at Vinnie. It's a really good disjointed move that leads into combos and is for the most part relatively safe.

In my opinion, I've always loved peach and I love fighting her. Rush down peaches are my favorite. They rush you down with turnips, float mix ups and the like. I like being kept on my feet like that :D



I also agree with what Seagull said about the spacies Bair. All 3 of them have a good aerial moveset to begin with. The speed and hitboxes are just different. Fox's is the trickiest to sweetspot and land but when it hits. It hurts and kills. Falco's stays out longer and is great for walling out and Wolf's is basically his go to bread and butter move.

 

[Life]

@uair/dair Was thinking more along the lines of Melee properties there, my bad. Although being a good combo move isn't really a thing in Brawl, haha.

Maybe Wolf's the one with the good fair? Falco's is lol. Fox's is kinda good and does Foxcopter in Brawl, but it can be SDI'd if the opponent is good.

Neon, you're wrong. For proof, take a replay of you playing the CPU off your Wii and play it on someone else's. Replays only record player inputs and the random seed(s), and let everything else (including bot decisions) take care of itself--they'd desync if that were the case.