Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

wu t

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah ESAM believed it was even until he fought Anti at SKTAR.
Right after the set ESAM got on the mic and was like "Yeah Pikachu vs MK is definitely -1, I just kept trying to get in and Anti was just like 'nope, Meta Knight'"

Also...wut about the posts about the Japanese
Isn't there only 1 good Fox in Japan? (Yui)
And the japanese Snakes are nowhere near as good as Ally's Snake (or at least, I don't think so. To me Ally seems like the best Snake in the world by far)

If watching any particular Snake main made you think Snake was top 3 in the game, that Snake should be Ally's XD

Watching one person succeed with a character means very little, and leads to things like Pikachu going even with Meta Knight.

The fact that there are multiple Snakes in Japan doing well means more to me than Ally's very rare (now-a-days) Snake-play; but I agree that he is the best.

 

[BSP]

When I watch a match involving a Japanese snake, the opponent seems scared to approach

And for good reason lol

 

[Luco]

About 99% of the smash community is male. Barely any female smashers participate in any sorta debate. The only girls I can even think of with more then 1000 posts are Nicole and KassandraNova.

Being purposely oblivious is not an excuse.

Perhaps, though that knowledge was not known to me, because according to statistics 47% or so of competitive (I think it's competitive, but it could be casual) gamers are girls. Actually that could be wrong. It might be 47% of girls are gamers??

Gah, i'm not sure. I do know that some statistics aren't so bad.

And while i'd like to think I don't judge people by their avatars, that's blatantly incorrect. my subconscious does a LOT to my perceptions of people. May just be me, I dunno.

I also have played games where the majority of people who choose their genders on the game play as the gender they are in real life, thus I know i'm biased from that sector. thus if I see female avatars I (subconsciously) am more likely to think of that person as female.

I dunno anymore. it seems i'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

 

[ViperGold42]

Does anyone disagree with my arguement that some of these tier list are made by real hard bias people? I'm not bashing them I'm bashing how the way they organize the tier list.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

No.

I disagree.

The ordering is completely logical

 

[Luco]

Does anyone disagree with my arguement that some of these tier list are made by real hard bias people? I'm not bashing them I'm bashing how the way they organize the tier list.

Well there are some characters that have no representation on the BBR.

I kid, I know the BBR takes a lot in to careful consideration when deciding the tier list and for now i'm not too bugged by how it is, reflecting our current meta game. =)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Olimar jump to second though....
I just hope next tier list to be less based on recent results and more on actual character viability.

 

[Shaya]

olimar like, was a toss up as second best by a lot of people though and ics weren't yet making a big splash consistently as they were only a few months later. Stuff like the american ics being bodied by olis which is/was meant to be his worst mu gave him a pretty good argument.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think tier list 7 has been the most accurate, non-biased tier list to date. Honest. There are still a few inaccuracies IMO. People underestimate and overestimate a few characters but nothing is that far off. I don't think Wario has any business being in the same tier as the characters he's next to and I don't think Dedede has any business being high tier anymore, but not much else is terribly problematic. Most of the changes that were made at the time made total sense when they were made, and still aren't terribly off. Olimar isn't #2 but he's only 1-2 spots down from there, so it isn't terribly egregious.

I could argue about Peach being too high again but I'm kind of over that.

And Re: girls. I'm not a feminism advocate or anything, but if I were a girl I would probably avoid being a part of the hardcore gaming community. Gamer guys are some of the most casually objectifying males out there and they don't even realize it. It's a cycle, of course. Nicole for example can't just be a girl who is good at brawl. Her sex has to be the most commonly-discussed thing, it can't be her achievements. It's always about how good-looking she is, how she's the best female smash player, etc, but it's hard not to recognize that at the same time because gamer girls who show that level of skill are admittedly rare.

I think it's unfair to expect gamer communities to avoid remarking about a hardcore female gamer's gender because they are such a statistical anomaly, but I also think it puts those girls in a rather uncomfortable situation. I have similar feelings about race and sexual preference: asking people to avoid acknowledging either trait is unrealistic, unhealthy, and disrespectful to the people to whom you are trying to be respectful, but there's a good way and a bad way of acknowledging peoples' differences. It's all about middle ground.

I also don't really acknowledge the use of the word "****" as being anti-women. While it is distasteful to use the word "****" like we do, it's distasteful because of how **** affects everyone and not because of how it affects women. **** is bad whether a woman or man is the victim.

 

[Exceladon City]

If we're talking about his Diddy then no I don't think Ninjalink is still good

You should play his Lucas.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I also have played games where the majority of people who choose their genders on the game play as the gender they are in real life, thus I know i'm biased from that sector. thus if I see female avatars I (subconsciously) am more likely to think of that person as female.

This is how it was when I played WoW

People used to think I was gay when they found out I was a dude playing a female character. Lol. My avatars were always female because I never tried to make my avatar myself, I tried to make it a person whose backside I would be comfortable staring at for 200-400 hours. So as a straight dude, I didnt understand why more dudes didnt have female avatars.

I think tier list 7 has been the most accurate, non-biased tier list to date. Honest. There are still a few inaccuracies IMO. People underestimate and overestimate a few characters but nothing is that far off. I don't think Wario has any business being in the same tier as the characters he's next to and I don't think Dedede has any business being high tier anymore, but not much else is terribly problematic. Most of the changes that were made at the time made total sense when they were made, and still aren't terribly off. Olimar isn't #2 but he's only 1-2 spots down from there, so it isn't terribly egregious.

I could argue about Peach being too high again but I'm kind of over that.

And Re: girls. I'm not a feminism advocate or anything, but if I were a girl I would probably avoid being a part of the hardcore gaming community. Gamer guys are some of the most casually objectifying males out there and they don't even realize it. It's a cycle, of course. Nicole for example can't just be a girl who is good at brawl. Her sex has to be the most commonly-discussed thing, it can't be her achievements. It's always about how good-looking she is, how she's the best female smash player, etc, but it's hard not to recognize that at the same time because gamer girls who show that level of skill are admittedly rare.

I think it's unfair to expect gamer communities to avoid remarking about a hardcore female gamer's gender because they are such a statistical anomaly, but I also think it puts those girls in a rather uncomfortable situation. I have similar feelings about race and sexual preference: asking people to avoid acknowledging either trait is unrealistic, unhealthy, and disrespectful to the people to whom you are trying to be respectful, but there's a good way and a bad way of acknowledging peoples' differences. It's all about middle ground.

I also don't really acknowledge the use of the word "****" as being anti-women. While it is distasteful to use the word "****" like we do, it's distasteful because of how **** affects everyone and not because of how it affects women. **** is bad whether a woman or man is the victim.

+500 Respect points to SFP.

Everything in this post is on point.

But for the record, Yink > Nicole from a player skill standpoint. But shes been inactive for a while so its still a fair statement to make.

 

[bubbaking]

So youre going to completely disregard whats actually happening in real life because of an outdate matchup list just because it agrees with the preconceptions you have about the characters already even though you know its out dated and will most likely be changed in the near future?

Ware dey do dat at?

Are you gonna tell me that our information was so off, our metagame so different, and our BBR so incompetent (yeah, that's right, I went there ) that Snake's MUs really changed all that much? If anything, everyone figured out how to fight Snake even better now. What's happening in real life is that several Snakes are becoming inactive, or they're switching off of Snake whenever a troublesome MU comes up. My preconceptions for Snake were actually really good. I tried to pick up Snake myself because I really used to think that he was top 3 myself. My views have since changed from what I've observed about this game, but I can assure you that my "preconceptions" have nothing to do with what I'm saying now. As for future changes to the MU chart, I personally think that these changes should reflect a further decrease in good MUs for Snake. He's basically the DDD of Top Tier.

Also...wut about the posts about the Japanese
Isn't there only 1 good Fox in Japan? (Yui)

I've heard of Yui but I'm pretty sure I was watching other Foxes take out very notable MKs in Japan. I'll have to go look up their names again. Perhaps one of them was Kakera (or maybe the MK being beaten was Kakera...idr )

Edit: IIRC, I saw them during a time when some people here were arguing that Fox can be seen as going even with MK and Japanese Foxes and their successful matches against good MKs were being cited.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yeah Yui 2-0'd Kakera like 3 or 4 months ago. It's up on Keitaro's channel

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Because of doubles, Yui plays MK now I heard. So far his placings have not improved in any way though. As Fox he has set-wins against Rain, Otori and Kakera but it looks like the Fox metagame is going to stale in Japan because the other good Foxes have quit [Shin], hardly attend [Nayriasu] or just can't make the leap into top level play [C-Stick]. Too bad, there was a lot of potential there.

 

[Shaya]

Fox's meta is like most mid-tier ish characters.
Power shield and suddenly be as good as meta knight-1.

But then the people good at power shielding play MK.

 

[bubbaking]

I missed nothing. You just posted a conversation to yourself, which I thought was really dumb.

Coontail isn't a good win. Minty hasn't been relevant since 2010? Ninjalink hasn't been relevant since 2009?

Junebug and Trela have national level wins. Even going by those 3 wins John#'s has they aren't even regional wins. They're more local then anything.

You missed everything. I quoted myself to expand upon a statement originally made to you, hoping that you would be able to decently infer from context clues that you were supposed to treat it as an extension of my conversation with you. I'm leaving it at that.

I personally think Coontail's pretty good, but if you say so... Minty and Ninjalink are still pretty hot over here. Everyone was really surprised and impressed when John12346 beat them both consecutively. Dabuz even stated so himself on stream.

also I appreciate the properness of name when refering to me but you can just call me KID. just make sure its all caps.

Yeah, yeah, I saw it the first time.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox's meta is like most mid-tier ish characters.
Power shield and suddenly be as good as meta knight-1.

But then the people good at power shielding play MK.

Sweet ignorance ...

 

[infiniteV115]

I personally think Coontail's pretty good, but if you say so... Minty and Ninjalink are still pretty hot over here. Everyone was really surprised and impressed when John12346 beat them both consecutively. Dabuz even stated so himself on stream.



Yeah, yeah, I saw it the first time.

That wouldn't necessarily mean Minty and Ninjalink is good, it could mean that Dabuz thought John#s was free and it turns out he wasn't XD

 

[Shaya]

Sweet ignorance ...

Lovely irony ...
Power shielding is everything.

 

[bubbaking]

@V115: Point taken...

Watching one person succeed with a character means very little, and leads to things like Pikachu going even with Meta Knight.

Except that it's the MU played out at the highest level between the (then) two best players of these chars. I've also observed M2K being beaten by other Pikas, like Anther, although I admit that's a little outdated now. I didn't know ESAM changed his mind, though...

Does anyone disagree with my arguement that some of these tier list are made by real hard bias people? I'm not bashing them I'm bashing how the way they organize the tier list.

Yes and no. Sometimes when I argue with members of the BBR, like John, about MUs and tier placements, I feel like the only reasoning behind certain tier placings is 'this char is too good to be any lower' and the only logic behind certain MUs is 'do X in Y situation. Done. Easy as pie,' but then I look at the BBR's explanations of how they created their tier list (votes & success/# of players) and the MU chart (theorycraft + high level results) in the OPs of their respective threads and I realize that they didn't actually do anything terribly wrong, from a totally objective viewpoint.

#RunOnSentenceOfTheCentury

olimar like, was a toss up as second best by a lot of people though and ics weren't yet making a big splash consistently as they were only a few months later. Stuff like the american ics being bodied by olis which is/was meant to be his worst mu gave him a pretty good argument.

I think the problem was the success/# of players formula. Just because you have a ton of players for a char but only relatively few of them actually doing well does not mean that the char is any worse as a char, even practically from a competitive standpoint. There are practically no Olis and the 2 or 3 notable ones there are do consistently well, but the same can be said for a few ICs out of the 'greater # than Olis' ICs. It's just too bad that Vinnie couldn't have racked up those recent results at the Impacts, in Japan, and at various other places earlier for us.

I also don't really acknowledge the use of the word "****" as being anti-women. While it is distasteful to use the word "****" like we do, it's distasteful because of how **** affects everyone and not because of how it affects women. **** is bad whether a woman or man is the victim.

Most logical thing ever said in this thread.

 

[infiniteV115]

I think the worst thing about it is that they decided to use the (total money won for character/how often character is used) function right after Apex, so we saw a ****ton of money going towards 1 Olimar main, which is probably a big factor in why Oli is 2nd.

I mean iirc his $/# ratio is higher than MK's lol

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think tier list 7 has been the most accurate, non-biased tier list to date. Honest. There are still a few inaccuracies IMO. People underestimate and overestimate a few characters but nothing is that far off. I don't think Wario has any business being in the same tier as the characters he's next to and I don't think Dedede has any business being high tier anymore, but not much else is terribly problematic. Most of the changes that were made at the time made total sense when they were made, and still aren't terribly off. Olimar isn't #2 but he's only 1-2 spots down from there, so it isn't terribly egregious.

I could argue about Peach being too high again but I'm kind of over that.

You need to realize that a tier list is heavy on results more then anything. And cause of results, you get the something like olimar being second. Olimar has been going in around that time in tournaments, thus, look at where he is. Also to prove my point:

Shaya:

Olimar like, was a toss up as second best by a lot of people though and ics weren't yet making a big splash consistently as they were only a few months later. Stuff like the american ics being bodied by olis which is/was meant to be his worst mu gave him a pretty good argument.

This where things go off. If it is ment/is his worst match up and he wins it, he gets boost points for a tier list? That has nothing to do with character, That's all players doing. If Ganons were to take over and start beating everyone and placing high in tournaments, would ganon go up on the tier list, knowing he has just about no good match ups? I'll tell you how I think this situation would go;

He would have to go up cause that was the same case for olimar shutting down ICs. But in my eyes, people tend to care about about the characters that matters. The characters we see over and over and over. Kinda feels like its just around high tier/top. So people might be effy on boosting up ganon. Cause they go him as a character and how "lolololol, learn how to fight ganon" But they would not say that for olimar vs IC. This would also make the BBR sound like hypocrites. Ganon would not be treated the same as a "so called" good character would.

That's a corrupted system. Also seems hella lazy. Now I know results is about the only good thing to show what a character can do, But you also need realize PLAYERS play a big role in results, not just what the character can do.

If I was to go to a tournament in my region filled with weak high tiers and got first everytime, would I get boost points for Peach on the tier list? 100 bucks says I would not and I be hit with "You are playing bad people". So that has nothing to do with Peach then even though I am bring results. So, why can't the rest in the high/top tier list be treated the same. Some of them are in their spots mostly due to results.

The ability of a character does not change. M2K does not change Meta knight. People can do all the stuff M2K can with meta knight. So what breaks one apart from M2K? They think and different. yet they still playing the same character. That's what separates good players from bad. Or players of equal skill level using same character. Same character, same tools, same options of winning. The only difference is the brain.

So with that said, the tier list is always changing. And why does it always change? Mostly cause of results. Results is what mostly makes a tier list. It's what is looked at and counted for the most. And with all that I just said, I can't agree with that. Reasons why I don't let results truly tell me how good a character is. What is suppose to be reflected on what a character can do is going on what some people can do with said character. And many things play in terms of results:

- How smart/creative the player is
- How well they can use their tools with character in said match up
- How well they know match up
- Players emotion

All this has NOTING to do with character ability and what they can really do. The operation of the player decides results. Wether they operate well or poorly.

If I was to make a tier list I would break down what the character can do FULLY. Then look at what a character can do FULLY in a match up. Then Look at what the enemy character in match up can do to my character FULLY. Now with all this make a ratio of the difficulty of doing said things for ALL situations. Example?

Aprroaching-

- How many ways can X approach Y?
- How many ways can Y stop you from approaching?
- What is the difficulty of getting in on Y with each approach?

This should be done with every aspect of a match up when looked at. Cause results are ALWAYS FLIPPED. So I am not gonna let a result/tier list tell me how my character would do. Things keep changing. And that has nothing to do with character. That's a player fault.

That's why I feel the tier list system is corrupted. Also Peach being where she is fine. I think she should be higher. But she should not be lower cause of results or your imgae of the character like the rest of the community. My reason for this is cause she has more tools then the rest under her and she has better match ups with the high tiers then the rest. Which is important and can determind how far a character would go in tournament compared to the rest. Let the image of the character and results go already.

 

[-LzR-]

Who the hell still thinks Olimar loses to ICs?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Who the hell still thinks Olimar loses to ICs?

I do.

 

[Tesh]

I'm interested to see how Olimar doesn't lose to ICs. There is basically 1 ground based character that gets to play a ground game vs ICs and its Snake. Olimar doesn't really have a strong air or ledge game to keep him safe and he kinda gets overpowered doesn't he? I've never seen that matchup play out remotely well for an Olimar so I definitely wanna see how Brood came out on top this weekend.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Probably the same way he beats every character. Side-b and pivot grab until 90%, usmash OOS. >_>

 

[DMG]

It's... weird. It looks like a wash on paper, but it seems to be much harder in person. IC's still probably win that, but it may just be a -2 or -1 instead of this awful MU people portray it to be.

 

[Tesh]

Thats the thing, Olimars overpowered flowchart nonsense doesn't look like it works on ICs at all. Pikmin get pushed away by blizzard, desynced tilts ice blocks and such make it pretty tough to even get a smash out when close. You are gonna have a tough time throwing them first since Olimar can be grabbed out of his grab, so if you grab nana, popo can grab you.

How does Olimar even get past deysynced blizzard? Perfectly spacing fsmash?

Maybe it plays out better if Olimar can take an early lead (something ive never seen in this matchup at higher levels).

 

[Zinoto]

Who the hell still thinks Olimar loses to ICs?

I do too. -1

Also, I agree with being too high on the tier list. I've thought that for a while now.

 

[-LzR-]

-1 doesn't mean a loss. It's practically even. I wouldn't consider anything less than -2 to matter much at all.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Also, I agree with being too high on the tier list. I've thought that for a while now.

Explain how? What reason you have. Something without reason means nothing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Here's some fun information for you theorycrafters to mess with:

I don't know how common this knowledge is, but it's uncommon enough that GIMR got it wrong in his MK dtilt loop video. In the video he states that one has 26 frames to continue a lock during a forced get-up, and that MK's roll+dtilt was exactly 26 frames, allowing him to continue the combo.

As it turns out, that's not true. The end lag on MK's dtilt is 10 frames, which makes the entire thing go on 36 frames, which should be impossible. After some prodding by DeLux I tested it this morning and discovered something really interesting: while you have 26 frames to hit someone after they fail a tech or fall on the ground after ledge slip, you have 46 frames before invincibility starts during forced get-up, after which they are vulnerable again for a brief period (hence stuff like snake's reset->fsmash).

I already checked: MK is the only character that can force reset->roll->force reset, but Squirtle comes close. Interested in seeing if anyone can think of some lame uses for this.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I think Oli loses to ICs either -1 or -2. Imo I lean a bit towards -1, but could be either one imo.

 

[Dabuz]

That wouldn't necessarily mean Minty and Ninjalink is good, it could mean that Dabuz thought John#s was free and it turns out he wasn't XD

Name search. Minty is still good, he just doesn't attend stuff and never has motivation to play. Ninjalink is OK, he hasn't gotten any better or worse since 09. I personally think John #s is a player with lots of natural potential but has no motivation to use it.

Who the hell still thinks Olimar loses to ICs?

It's -1. The flowchart Olimar doesn't work at top level. What does work is punishing ICs for trying to set up desynch blizzards since those desynchs have a huge opening before being established. If Olimar can punish the desynchs and force an IC player to not use them, it's actually close to even since ICs don't have a good way to get in.

 

[bubbaking]

Minty has actually been playing Melee more. Too bad he kinda sucks, though... Him, I, and some other guy are the only three Samus mains on campus.

Edit: Actually dabuz, you suck at Melee too now that I remember it.

 

[Dabuz]

Minty has actually been playing Melee more. Too bad he kinda sucks, though... Him, I, and some other guy are the only three Samus mains on campus.

Edit: Actually dabuz, you suck at Melee too now that I remember it.

Melee too technical and aggressive for me, I like easy to play games where I can zone defensively ^^;

My Puff is decent though...in project M, since she fits right into that category.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz! You're just like another guy we have over here. He plays Oli in Brawl and Puff in Melee/P:M. Kinda plays Wario in P:M, too, but he plays him like he's Puff.

 

[da K.I.D.]

to respond to dark peachs comment about how results shouldnt matter. you can ask yourself how X character approaches Y situation against Z opponent all day. and You can come up with some very in depth ideas on how things can and should play out. But the in person matches and tournaments are what really determine how viable those things are and if they are really feasible to be included in the discussion of how good a character is.

For, example, earlier you were talking about the effects float canceled double hit nairs and bairs can have on the peach metagame, and how it can make her pressure better and safer and rack more damage and all this great stuff and thats why peach is a better character than where most would place her.

If I were to come to this thread and say, Snake is top 4 in the game because at any time and any point in the game hes is liable to do this to someone:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_e0BtiopSo&feature=g-u-u#t=300s

who at that point is more believable in their claims? Probably me because I can rattle off probably like a dozen characters that have unexplored tech that isnt being used in tournaments (DDDs buffered pivot infinite and buffered up smash, sonics jab lock and footstool set ups, jab bair from ike, peach aerials, pit arrow stuff) but until it can be consistently used in tournaments, and shown that it can actually CHANGE tournament matches and matchups then it doesnt need to be and CANT be considered for a tier list because theres no way to know the real world implications of those things.

Meanwhile, Snake can still sextuple down throw people. But *****s out here want to disregard that and say hes not still just as good as diddy.



Oh and btw, this part is for everyone:
ICs still lose to Yoshi and ROB. they really arent THAT much (if at all) better than snake/diddy/falco/olimar. Cats need to stop getting caught up in the hype.

 

[Cassio]

Regarding the stuff about pika:

The farther you reach into top level play the more important technical prowess with pika becomes. I guess that can be said of a lot of top level play, but a large portion of the cast simply doesnt have the necessary depth to achieve the same level of success. I do believe it's a significant factor in the visible difference between a high/top level pika vs everyone else, but at a basic level i can see the case for pika not being too technical.

What makes pikas bair difficult to SDI, in addition to the low multiplier, is that the mobility of the move itself. When the move connects, you have the option of moving to match the opponents SDI. This isnt always the case, and in some situations you can only move in the opposite direction and it becomes easy to escape. But most of the time with proper use I find that the opponent stays inside the move. The move could be better, but it has its uses. Its 4 frames, very disjointed, and connects at very useful angles. One of my favorite uses for it is as a shield pressure move, esp against an opponent on a platform. Tip them with uair, then double jump back with the multihit bair thatll eat their shield and have a strong chance at a shield poke. If it doesnt, the moves disjointed and mobile enough to escape punishment. For some reason ESAM prefers to use dair for platform pressure.

ftilt is a great move imo, his worst move is probably dash attack. Also the cg isnt that hard, pikpik is just lazy