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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Sunnysunny

Blue-nubis
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Lucario's my main because I feel he has options for every situation he's put in. I'm also pretty clutch in high damage situations.

I tend to always go for the stoic martial artist in fighting games anyways though, regardless of how they play.

I also secondary snake because he has the best noises when eating food. :3
 

infiniteV115

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ZSS because she's fun and I feel more comfortable with her than with any other character. She just fits my style.

I've been trying to pick up Pikachu as a secondary cause he's fun too but I never really practice him enough so he's still trash.
Same goes for Lucario, but he's like 10x worse than my Pikachu.
 

da K.I.D.

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You play ddd and its like grab for damage, bair for mixups and uptilt to kill. You see wolf and its like bair for damage, bair for mix ups and bair for kills. Lol.

But pikachu just has so many options. Im a sonic main and even i get confused by how many options and abilities he has in any given situation.


And for the record, pikas bair is bad. Too easy to sdi out of.
:phone:
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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The stuff about Pikas bair made me think, are there really even many bad bairs in the game? Almost everyone has a viable bair. Maybe Bowser has a crappy bair but I think everyone else has at least a decent or good one. Bairs too good.
 

Ussi

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Pikachu's bair might not be bad as a move in general

But when you compare it to every other single bair in the game, its one of the worst.
 

bubbaking

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Man, I enjoyed reading most of these. Everyone sharing the background of their main selection... :)

Also, I feel like D3 does better against Diddy than Falco. Waddles are good for limiting Diddy's banana game on the ground and if D3 air camps, it forces Diddy to throw his bananas in the air or jump after you. Inhale harassment can hinder that stupid Monkey Flip, Bair beats out and trades with alot of Diddy's offense, Diddy is kinda f'd offstage against D3, because of his fairly gimpable recovery and D3's Bair/Fair/Inhale being a pain. Most importantly, D3 can CG Diddy and put him offstage, the very spot he doesn't want to be.

/endtheorycraft
CG's important but it's really hard to land it on him because a good Diddy will always have a banana around. However, I can say from quite a bit of experience facing Nuke in this MU that if DDD manages to pick a 'naner up, he can create a very good setup where he has a Waddle in front of him and a banana either in hand or on the ground right behind him. Diddy can now only have one banana and he has to choose wisely how he uses it.

Ive played around with about a third of the cast as tourney secondaries. Lucario, ddd, pit, luigi, squirtle, ike, mk, ganon, toon link.
How do you play Squirtle as a tourney secondary but not the other two PT pokes? :p
 

infiniteV115

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Fairly certain Pikachu's bair has a low SDI multiplier on it, so it's hard to SDI out of.
And all of Pikachu's moves are good. His worst move is probably like...ftilt. And it's not even that it's bad, it's just not as good as the rest of his moves.
 
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There are far more bad and situational fairs in Brawl than bairs. Bairs seem almost always decent, and fairs seem almost always bad or good but situational. The fairs that are good are awesome though.
 

infiniteV115

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No it's good. It provides (along with bair) good pressure against an opponent shielding on a platform, is his best landing aerial, and can shield poke easily.
And it strings well into tons of **** (grab, dsmash, tilts, sh nair) upon landing.

Basically, yeah you can SDI it, but most of the time you're not trying to hit with a large portion of it anyway.
 

bubbaking

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I see...

I wouldn't call him technical but yeah he definitely seems like one of the hardest characters to master.
That QAC is pretty technical, though.....

Pikachu seems like the opposite of Wolf to me. Lots of weak multi-hit moves. Chain grabs everywhere. Light-weight, but good recovery. Bad Bair.
Yeah, but he's also got some hard-hitting moves. Fresh strong nair and usmash, to state a few.

And for the record, pikas bair is bad. Too easy to sdi out of.
His Melee bair was so much better, IMO. One quick, strong hit, and one could kinda skip, or should I say cancel, the bad landing lag. :awesome:

The stuff about Pikas bair made me think, are there really even many bad bairs in the game? Almost everyone has a viable bair. Maybe Bowser has a crappy bair but I think everyone else has at least a decent or good one. Bairs too good.
I mean, it's another example of a bair that was tons better in Melee, thanks to environment and L-cancelling, but doesn't Bowser's bair have a good amount of disjoint? It's probably not that bad if you make sure to never land with the move, but I don't play Brawl Bowser.

^That's mainly what I meant. I like Pika's bair, but in comparison to other bairs, his is definitely low tier. Bairs just happen to be amazing in Brawl.
Bairs just happen to be amazing in Smash in general. Everyone's fastest, strongest move is a bair. I'm clearly exaggerating, but you get my drift.
 

da K.I.D.

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Pikachus bair is bad. If he short hops it you can mash up on both sticks , get out of it, land and punish his terrible landing lag. If he full hops or double jumps it, you can mash both sticks down and get out of it. You might not get a guaranteed punish, but now pikachu is above you and you are at positional advantage.
It may have a low sdi effect but it hits so many times for so long, that it doesnt matter. Even people with average reaction times and suboptimal sdi methods like me can do it.

Pika fair is very good because you can land with it with very little lag. If that lands it combos into 90% of the characters moveset. Including kill moves like nair, up smash and up tilt. The latter 2 obv. Being folloed up by thunder. WHICH IS LIKE ONE OF THE BEST MOVES IN THE GAME. Zero risk unpunishable kill move attempt? Yes please.

Bairs are generally great in this game. Which is weird because in any other fighting game, someone being behind you is the WORST position to be in.

As a point of reference. Sonics bair, in the context of all the bairs in this game is really average. But its still one of his top 3 moves for him as a character.

:phone:
 

infiniteV115

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QACs aren't technical lol
Not the traditional ones anyway (where you just QA into the ground and now you can interrupt it with a jump/aerial/another QA). The ones where you cancel them by sliding off a platform/the stage, or the one I see ESAM doing where you aim it perfectly at the edge so now you're standing and can fsmash immediately, or the ones where you go THROUGH the stage? Those are technical.

If anything the most technical thing about Pikachu is aiming his QA in one of the directions on the analog where there isn't a 'corner', or doing the buffered (dash --> sh --> uair) necessary to start the QAC lock.
 

da K.I.D.

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Apparently his cgs are difficult because pikapika still cant cg wolf and falco right.

Theres also the random edge of the stage cgs he has on like ten characters. I still dont know how that works. I just remember seibriks wario giving esam the business and than that happened.

Theres just a lot of incredibly niche stuff the character can do. None of it is particularly difficult persay. But keeping track of everything he can do, and utilizing it all at the right time is a huge undertaking

:phone:
 
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My guess is that the ground stops the guy from being thrown down as far as he "should" be and that taking the ground out of the equation maximizes how much you can get out of your frame advantage.
 

bubbaking

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Bairs are generally great in this game. Which is weird because in any other fighting game, someone being behind you is the WORST position to be in.
I think that's kinda the point, tbh. Smash is supposed to be emphatically different from actual FG's because it encourages one to take 'risks' such as leaving your back to the opponent to have access to a good move, or perhaps the bairs are so good to make them good defensive tools so that a char's back isn't much less protected than his front. I don't think, in actual FGs, one can attack without actually facing the opponent, with the exception of a few specialized chars in SC.

Apparently his cgs are difficult because pikapika still cant cg wolf and falco right.

Theres also the random edge of the stage cgs he has on like ten characters. I still dont know how that works. I just remember seibriks wario giving esam the business and than that happened.

Theres just a lot of incredibly niche stuff the character can do. None of it is particularly difficult persay. But keeping track of everything he can do, and utilizing it all at the right time is a huge undertaking
He can also take advantage of walk-offs and the like for easy auto-KOs with his DDD-style fthrow CG. I find that CG to actually be scarier than his dthrow CG, since a good deal of stages have walls and walk-offs, and I don't like karma forcing me to endure the troubles I inflict upon others. :glare: :shades:
 

infiniteV115

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Oh I agree totally. Like I said earlier, he seems like one of the hardest characters to master, and part of that entails using every aspect of his metagame to its full potential.

I just don't think he's very technically (ie physically) demanding, outside of proper QA aim, the buffered running sh uair, the situational QA tricksies...yeah I think that's it.

Pikachu's CGs aren't very tech skill intensive at all. I can do the one on Falco easily and I don't even main Pikachu lol. Just pretty much land the first fresh dthrow somewhere between 15 and 45% (I don't know the exact %s but that's in the ball park). From 0 you can just fthrow x2 --> dthrow til like 100-105 --> followup with non-regrab.

The one on Wolf isn't tech skill intensive either, it's just more specific in what you need to do (I think you have to use a certain sequence for fthrows, dthrows and pummels to maximize the CG damage)

eg The CG on DDD goes fthrow x2 --> pummel --> dthrow x3 --> pummel --> dthrow x3 --> usmash (iirc, there might be another pummel + dthrow x3) and that does a total of 76 or 86 (I can't remember which)

It isn't hard because it's technically demanding (it's very easy to do) but it's hard in that you have to remember the specific sequence for him, as well as for Wolf. Especially since Wolf has an invincibility option in his shine.
 

Seagull Joe

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I believe John12346 is still pretty active, last time I checked, but then again, he isn't exactly the best Lucario to look at when it comes to results. Our region in NY is pretty stacked with top players.
Actually, John12346 does have some pretty decent, fairly recent results. At Impact, he directly took out Coontail's PT, Minty's Marth, and NinjaLink's Diddy to face off (and lose) against Dabuz in the GF's. At Impact II, he took out Coontail again. At Impact III, he took out Nuke's Diddy and Deven's Kirby. Decent-ish, I guess. Most impressive ones were the first Impact's results really...
What the ****? You responded to your own post and quoted it to say someone is good :c?

The Cg with :pikachu2: on :wolf: is just 3dthrow>Pummel/Fthrow>More Dthrow's till about 110 and then nothing because shine prevents Usmash/Utilt and no :pikachu2: can consistently do the footstool QAC (NEVER seen it done in tourney vs a :wolf:. Esam has never done it and he showcased it, but I think K Prime invented it).

:018:
 
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