Official BBR Tier List v7

[Shaya]

Because shield pressure leads to better opportunities to use all those other moves.

At the very least, stuff like her pound, fair and bair tend to be just that little bit more telegraphed and are power shield fodder.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

They are still massively bread 'n' butter; you need to mix-up all of those moves (nair included) for any of them to be safe, but nair sees less use than it's peers in my own experience (and from watching/talking with other puffs)

meh it's puff who cares lol

 

[Shaya]

I didn't necessarily agree on the notion, but I could see why he'd argue it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

True that
the first line of his post kind-of set me in a sour mood for the rest of it lol

when people talk about Puff's WOP (or "semi"-wop) in Brawl, it's just bluh. It's just stringing moves together, every character does it, it's not special XD

I mean, in Melee she can non-situationally carry characters off-stage and to death with bair, but it's way more situational, read-based and less dominating in Brawl it doesn't really deserve mention as a character trait

 

[PMC66]

I hope sonic makes it out of mid tier next list tbh i think he's better than everyone else in that tier, his most severe matchups are 6/4 and whilst his average is lack luster he as a character can win pretty much every matchup, which isn't true for the vast majority of characters in mid tier.

I hope Sonic AT LEAST switches places with ROB, because ROB is a way way worse character.

ROB after some consideration i think him and DK in the scheme of the game too bad to really be mid tier, mid tier is borderline viable not unviable, and as much as i love using ROB he is a completely garbage character and i'm surprised people still give him credit. Anyone who says ROB performs well i'm sorry but 90% of the American smash scene must be completely and utterly clueless on how to deal with this character, there i said it, i am fed up of this scrub assery existing with this character in your smash scene he is dreadful, if you loose to ROB as: MK,Zamus, Fox or D3, then it is either because the ROB out played you to some ridiculous degree or you didn't know the matchup. To be fair to ROB, IC's and Marth are badly overpolarised, and ROB isn't that common, it's the only possible reason for why this character is performing. Having -4 -3 matchups yeah you know what i'm going there Fox and D3 are -3, and being at a disadvantage to anybody who isn't low tier does not even a mid tier character make.

BTW anyone who says ROB -2s Sonic i'm sorry study this character seriously, ROB is too bad a character, to -2 anybody that isn't Jigglypuff, or -3 anyone who's as bad as Ganondorf.

Also ZSS V ROB is -3 anybody who disagrees hasn't played a Zamus that frame traps every landing you do and foot stool infinite your *** to death lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

loses to shield and lasting hitboxes.

He isn't nearly as good as //. He would have to win matchups or have even ones to even possibly fathom to be HT. He loses out to every HT except -1/-2/-3.

 

[PMC66]

^ Sonic is still > pretty much all of mid tier

I don't consider myself a fan boy of this character by any stretch his KO ability is a complete joke and his aproaches can be shaky but compared to the rest of mid tier sonic is a much more viable character

 

[ぱみゅ]

^ Sonic is still > pretty much all of mid tier

I don't consider myself a fan boy of this character by any stretch his KO ability is a complete joke and his aproaches can be shaky but compared to the rest of mid tier sonic is a much more viable character

Mr. Game and Watch destroys or at the very least beats pretty much everyone below him, and goes even with one or two character in Higher Tiers than him (and beat Pikachu), and he's still in that "Borderline" that most people consider Mid.

 

[PMC66]

^ i'm not discussing Sonic> borderline tier i'm saying Sonic> every current mid tier character and to be honest he is. He should definetly be in borderline or top of the tier he's currently in oh and Sonic> Pit too. You know what theres no potential for Pit in this game, he's a noobs character, a decent noobs character, but still a noobs character. No offense to Pit mains but what difference in technique is there from mid level to top level play?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

wow you are so dense omg
pit is basic so he is bad
what even

 

[PMC66]

^ best way to change the subject

Pit isn't a bad character he's just average lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

Pit is a jack of all trades, master of none.
He's like a better version of Mario, though worse if you consider his pre-pubescent voice at the same time.

<_<

Stick him in bottom tier for being annoying.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Pit is a jack of all trades, master of none.
He's like a better version of Mario, though worse if you consider his pre-pubescent voice at the same time.

<_<

Stick him in bottom tier for being annoying.

Excels at recovering, doesn't count.

And mario is SUPPOSED to be a master edgeguarder with his quick aerials and two gimp tools. It's obvious what Sakurai was trying to do, it just didn't really pan out that way.

 

[Life]

I believe that Sonic can reach borderline tier, if our players start putting in work again. X is still good I think, but I haven't seen him around so IDK. Espy is also good (and his biggest threat, Trela, is gone), but he's out of commission IIRC. I don't know about Goggles, but I'm sure he'll show up here and say something. We aren't all terrible: Cloud and Meek are fairly good, Tesh is alright, maybe a few others I've forgotten, but they're not the caliber I'm talking about (no offense). And me? I'm only good at posting.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I still remember how hype MLG Dallas was for us. It's been a couple years now. We haven't done anything like it since.

Sonic can be good, but right now, we're not earning it.

 

[PMC66]

^ fair enough.

Though if earning results is such a big deal then why is Marth in top tier when he's out performed by half the cast?

I think the way tier lists are made is inconsistant, people argue results and all that but in practice it realy doesn't count for that much. From what i've seen BBR's voteshave traditionally made the bigger impact on the lists. An example being Marth's current placement, so whats with this hybrid style, why not just do it Japan style or have the community and the back room vote?

Thing is you don't earn your character getting higher on a tier list, BBR just votes them whevere it wants. V.6 when wolf was still 22nd when at the time his results demonstrated and merrited higher placement they still kept him down simply because it was 'their own opinion' or simple 'bandwagon' theory.

I am done with how slow *** it has taken people to realise where certain characters should go ROB is far from top of mid tier, Sonic is a better character than anyone else in the tier he's in he has a good recovery and vastly more options in comparison to any of those characters and all his matchups are feasibly winnable at top level regardless of some being 6/4 which whilst those mus can be difficult they are still perfectly winnable, Luigi is low tier, the only reason he isn't yet is because of BBR voting him mid, if the tier lists were properly made by tourney results, he'd be joining his brother Mario. Theres nothing that bad about low tier, Low tiers can pull off some interesting feats with passionate users, look at Acid's Bowser in Denmark or Mekos, or Ocean they pushed their characters quite far and impressed everybody, but they are still not good characters. But thats from my own guidelines clearly BBR goes for different guidelines when making different tier categories. Because i sure as hell I wouldn't have a character like , like ROB or even donkey Kong in mid tier, or Luigi for that matter.

 

[deepseadiva]

NEW TIERLIST

SWORD+FLYING

CAMPING+KILLMOVES, PROJECTILES+TRIPPING, DEATHGRABS, CAMPING+KILLMOVES+FAT

LASERS, SWORD, RAT AGILITY, AIRBENDING+KILLMOVES

PIECES+SWORDLEGS, AURA, FAT+GRABS, PROJECTILES

LASERS+BAIR, KILLMOVES+TURTLE, UPSMASH, LEVITATION, FLYING+PROJECTILES

PROJECTILES+FLYING, JUMPS+BAIR, RUNNING AROUND FAST, FAT+BAIR, BIG SWORD, AGILITY

BUTTERY AIRMOVEMENT, GOOD CHARACTER THAT INSTANTLY DIES WHEN GRABBED, MINIWARIO+MINIOLIMAR+MINIBOWSER, COMBOS

HEXAGONS, BAD GIMMICKS, PROJECTILES, FAT+STRONG, FAT+JAB

JUMPS, WORSE PROJECTILES, SLOW, SLOW+FAT+STRONG

 

[da K.I.D.]

For the record sonics worst matchup (lucario) is EASILY a 70:30 matchup.

Sonic and ike have always been good. But the bbr have always been HIGHLY biased against those two specifically. Sonic had literally ALL of his high level rep disappear not long after the mlg era. So people sometimes forgetwhat hes done.

Ike has never had more than 1 and a half high level reps active at any one time. When san was hot, mr. Doom was comin up, when Doom was taking names, Ryo wasnt traveling, and when ryo really did work the other two were inactive.

And since the 3 dudes never did any major, consistent traveling, and you have to fight the character to see why hes good, people stayed ignorant. The only reason Pikachu is near top tier, is because esam went literally everywhere and beat the fear of the character in to everyone personally. But then when he goes back home and loses to ike, nobody believes the character is good.

The way people analyse characters is usually stupid, because they only go on their own experiences and biases even though the top character reps are spread out across the country. The only person that i would really trust to judge every character on experience is ally.

Bu then theres people on the other side that base their entire argument on smashboard theorycraft. You need to have both to accurately assess the character

P.s. sonic is probably even or +1 with game and watch. All previous experiences in that matchup at a high level have sonic winning

 

[deepseadiva]

P.s. sonic is probably even or +1 with game and watch. All previous experiences in that matchup at a high level have sonic winning

I will NEVER believe this.

What could Sonic possibly have to make it his advantage. Elaborate. Explain these tools.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sonic and Ike are perfectly good characters, the fact that we're still arguing about this and Peach is still high-mid (um... borderline tier) is like... what

I think people completely discount two things when judging a character's viability:

1. Rewards for reads
2. Unpredictability

 

[deepseadiva]

Sonic and Ike are perfectly good characters, the fact that we're still arguing about this and Peach is still high mid is like what

Swords are good. Sonic is eh.

Peach is better than Kirby at leastttttt all must agree.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Swords are good. Sonic is eh.

Peach is better than Kirby at leastttttt all must agree.

Agreed, Kirby is balls though.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well what are the results for Sonic:Vinnie's GW? Cause imo his is pretty much the only one that matters.

And I don't think ESAM has lost to Ike any time recently. And even if he did, that wouldn't make Pikachu a not-good character. You can have 1 or 2 low-mid tier MUs that are evenish and still be a top tier character.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And I don't think ESAM has lost to Ike any time recently. And even if he did, that wouldn't make Pikachu a not-good character. You can have 1 or 2 low-mid tier MUs that are evenish and still be a top tier character.

I believe Ryo has beaten ESAM.

Also, I don't think that's what he was trying to say. I think he was just saying that ESAM worked his *** off to prove that Pikachu was top tier, then went home and gets beaten by Ike, who still sits in low-mid tier somewhere. Not the most salient argument still.

 

[GOofyGV]

Yeah but as long as ESAm is the only one who is that good with pika I honestly don't see why he should be and ESAm also Playes IC's

 

[deepseadiva]

I think people completely discount two things when judging a character's viability:

1. Rewards for reads
2. Unpredictability

When trying to analyze this tier list, I'm trying to see the deeper spectrum of things, and I think it's a distilled version of this. Being able to retain options, while being able to press on your opportunities. Characters like MK and Diddy can retain their options, being able to be defensive and safe - while also being able to press them for massive reward. Peach can be incredibly safe, but can only hit so hard when presented with such an opportunity. Sonic is in this same category, but even less so. Characters like Ike and DK can reap massive rewards when let in, but suffer from having weaker defenses.

Which is better in this game, to be able to hit hard when asked, or to avoid being hit? I think it was some pro Melee dude who was like "don't get hit"? I would agree.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The only instances of sonic v gaw i know of are speed vs vinnie (sonic wins, dont know if its recorded) and MALCOLM vs BLACKANESE (HELLA OLD but sonic wins and gaw hasnt grown as a character.

What i was saying is that esam and nick riddle along with myself talk about ike being good because were the ones with experience with the best ikes but nobody listens to us even though we are clearly more knowledgable about him than ... Everyone else.
Esam loses to peach but he still thinks shes not the best character. But he knows ike is good.

Also, i dont think kirby is that bad. But hes really hard to be above average with because of his straight forward nature. But chu did some amazing things with him






Ewwww..... People cant even quote Isai by name anymore? Sad face.
"Dont get hit."

 

[Sinister Slush]

Might as well put out there Espy beat Zac back from MLG Dallas, but yeah... two years ago.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Excels at recovering, doesn't count.

Tap him once and he falls.
I would consider Sonic better at recovery personally.

And mario is SUPPOSED to be a master edgeguarder with his quick aerials and two gimp tools. It's obvious what Sakurai was trying to do, it just didn't really pan out that way.

I never liked Mario personally.

 

[Neon!]

Nair is definitely ONE of her best moves, sure.

I don't see it as better than Pound, Bair, Fair, Dair and Grab, though...

Nair is her best oos option and her best mixup option because it has less landing lag than her other aerials.

 

[deepseadiva]

I still feel Snake is being ROBBED from top three.

Olimar #2.... Everyone get out. Ugh.

 

[infiniteV115]

I think Oli should be #3 :\

 

[da K.I.D.]

oh, and espy had a solidly positive record vs zac and hylian when he played gaw.

snake/olimar/diddy/falco/ICs are all really hard to order.

olimar and ICs are both very very hot and cold. they win easily but if you take them out of their zone, they die fast.

Falco, Snake and Diddy are more normalized, and well rounded. they have lots of good strengths and few minor weaknesses along with that one thing that puts them over the rest of the class. (projectiles)

where you place the 2 is how relavent you believe oli offstage adn solo popo to be.
and where you place the 3 is based on how you rank nades, lasers, and bananas.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I still feel Snake is being ROBBED from top three.

Olimar #2.... Everyone get out. Ugh.

I think Oli should be #3 :\

tbh, I always thought oli in #2 was ridiculous whatsoever.
but #2 is either him or Diddy with a semi-limited stagelist (Apex), or ICs with a japanese-like stagelist.

 

[SoulPech]

IMO Top 5:

 

[ぱみゅ]

Apex stagelist:
[] - [/,,]

Japenese stagelist:
[] - [] - [,,]

Liberal stagelist:
[ (would be so good that would probably be banned)] - [,,,/, ]

[/theorycraft]

 

[Life]

Ewwww..... People cant even quote Isai by name anymore? Sad face.
"Dont get hit."

wow.

I even use that quote on the kid Icarus gamefaqs board.

I could write an essay on those three words, no joke.

 

[M@v]

Apex stagelist:
[] - [/,,]

Japenese stagelist:
[] - [] - [,,]

Liberal stagelist:
[ (would be so good that would probably be banned)] - [,,,/, ]

[/theorycraft]

Falco gets worse the more non neutral stages you put in. Like once you keep adding stages after apex it goes south real fast for him.

 

[Life]

Falco gets worse the more non neutral stages you put in. Like once you keep adding stages after apex it goes south real fast for him.

I don't know if I agree, because Japes.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Falco gets worse the more non neutral stages you put in. Like once you keep adding stages after apex it goes south real fast for him.

Maybe. But with everyone else getting relatively worse, who would take Falco's place?
I actually could believe Wario outplacing him in that scenario but I have doubts about it right now, so I left it like that; maybe if it were proven... but nobody plays with more than 13 stages anymore so testing at this point is virtually impossible.

 

[-LzR-]

Why exactly is Falco so bad on many stages? I just don't see why. He is fast, jumps take him anywhere and he can pretty much decide where he wants the fight with his lasers.