Official BBR Tier List v7

[Seagull Joe]

Did people actually believe me when I said even? 's favor actually.

 

[Vinylic.]

If it's that hard, I'd rather say -2 then.

Because -3 is out of the question.

 

[DMG]

It's like -2, 2.5

It's like DK vs Wario, egregious awful things happen and you get grabbed and flerped

 

[infiniteV115]

Why is -3 out of the question for a MU that (AFAIK) has never been won (ie won a set) at a high level?
If I'm wrong on that then someone direct me to a Falco beating ICs at a high level pls

 

[DeLux]

IDK I lose to all falcos

 

[Seagull Joe]

Larry is cooking something.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 15 (7 members and 8 guests)
Seagull Joe, iKiLLOTz, DEHF, Naridax

 

[MeekSpeedy]

Why is -3 out of the question for a MU that (AFAIK) has never been won (ie won a set) at a high level?
If I'm wrong on that then someone direct me to a Falco beating ICs at a high level pls

Captain Falcon is -3 vs ICs.

Would you compare CFs tools to Falcos for this matchup?

 

[Cassio]

@v115 Some MUs simply arent played frequently enough to determine that way. Especially for a character like ICs, which can take considerable amounts of high-top level practice.

The way Id see Falco/ICs as worse than -2 is if you bumped a large amount of ICs ratios up by a rank. I think if you push theory, you could do that, but as Id said elsewhere you have to find the line somewhere between applicable theory and "if falcon powershields every attack he goes even with MK".

 

[infiniteV115]

I never even said that I agree with Falcon:ICs being -3 lol, that should probably be -4 unless like RC and Norfair and Temple are legal XD

 

[Cassio]

Yeah sorry, that was just a general statement about Falco/IC's being -3 not directed at you

xD @ Delux

 

[DeLux]

If you haven't figured it out yet Cassio, what you're supposed to do in theory is this:

Take every MU ratio Vinnie says about ICs and move it one place in favor of the opponent.
Alternatively take very MU ratio I say and move it one place in favor of ICs

Except for a few exceptions like Olimar

Most accurately theorycrafted MU spread known to man kind

 

[DEHF]

I just feel like Falco has no outstanding assets vs ICs. He can spike nana from certain setups, but he doesn't have any reliable tools to approach ICs. His side b camping is far from unstoppable, there are ways to grab it if it gets read. His projectiles cause almost no hitstun, and he has to space things PERFECTLY otherwise he gets shieldgrabbed.

Also, other than moves like ftilt and fullhop aerials, Falco can be found over-committing when he attacks Nana. He usually can't go for things like dash attack usmash against Nana, since it's so laggy. His best bet is to try to anti-approach 100% of the time, and be REALLY CAREFUL when following up... while still not getting read when using side B. I feel like the Falco player much be considerably better than the IC player to take games, let alone win. That's why I think this matchup is -3.

I wouldn't say he has to space things perfectly to not get shield grabbed. There is some room for error, but I'll admit, it is very small.

I feel like the match up is very difficult for Falco at the very beginning of both character's stocks. Neither Nana or Popo will go very far when Falco attacks them, making follow ups difficult and the down throw chain grab Sopo has makes it easier for Falco to lose the stock.

If Falco can avoid getting grabbed at low % while taking the Ice Climbers to mid %, which is kinda hard, but very possible, the match up becomes a lot easier. A lot of follow ups that were risky before like dash attack up smash or chasing nana become pretty safe since you're able to hit Nana and Popo further away from each other.

If anything I feel like like at the start of both players' stocks it's -3 for Falco, then at higher %s it goes down to -1, probably 0 or +1 vs Sopo.

The comment I made about the rounds you played against me, Masha, and Shugo being close and player X beating Player Y being a terrible idea to decide match ups aren't contradictions. I stated that the rounds you had against us were close because just saying that you 2-0ed or 3-0ed someone is making it sound like you had an easy time winning, which I don't think you did. It's exactly one of my reasons why I believe stating that one player beat another shouldn't be used to argue match ups. Examining the options that the players used and didn't use in a set or even using a specific part of a set as a video reference to explain something would make more sense to me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Alternatively take very MU ratio I say and move it one place in favor of ICs

So Wolf is only +2 against ICs now?

 

[infiniteV115]

Take every MU ratio Vinnie says about ICs and move it one place in favor of the opponent.
Alternatively take very MU ratio I say and move it one place in favor of ICs

So ZSS is either +2 ICs or -3 for ICs
thx bro dat helsp alot

 

[DeLux]

@Gheb: Wolf is -3 for ICs (since I think it's +/- 4 wolf's favor). Vinnie thinks it's +/- 2 in Wolf's favor though

Spoiler

just speculating based on my +/- skew theory. He probably thinks it's even in reality, and I really think it's only +2 or +3 for wolf

@VforVendetta: ZSS is probably -1 for ICs since Vinnie thinks it's even and I think it's -2

We do both agree that Bowser is even though

The reason is I'm bad and am more accustomed to the failures of the character as I'm riddled with them. He is more accustomed to the successes since he's the best and doesn't do the things that causes the failures

 

[infiniteV115]

I remember Vinnie making a post quite a while back saying he thinks that ICs win +1 against ZSS

 

[RaptorTEC]

They do

 

[ぱみゅ]

Zelda > Ganondorf.

Fsmash may be SDI'ed but you can still rely a bit on the last few hits. Usmash poops on aerial approaches and has a decent reward. Dtilt can actually lead up to stuff and Dsmash is a fast and strong gtfo with good range. She's less slow and has decent aerial mobility, her recovery is not as bad, she gets juggled but she doesn't get combod like Ganon gets. And she has a pretty decent dash attack herself.

For some reason people just seem to take Ganon more serious than Zelda, I don't see why as their both a joke, Zelda being a slightly better (or less worse) joke.

True, true, true.
I don't think she's that bad, but every character keeps evolving and discovering helpful things here and there.
She might get relatively worse than everyone else in the future, but she still would have tools and still could make stuff happen.
That's what I think about the game and its lower-tiered characters anyway.

Ganon has side-b and uair, and both are legitimately strong, but everything else about Ganon is bad. Zelda's nair, usmash, utilt, dtilt, and dsmash are all pretty decent. Fsmash doesn't work like it should but it does have uses. She also doesn't get destroyed by every CG and lock in the game...

I don't see how he could be better. >_<

Is not that he's better, but Zelda gets less reward from taking the same risks he does.
Zelda can wall and defend pretty well, but in order to make those a serious threat, she needs to get advantage, and that's where she's bad at.

I said that if people realize how Zelda works they realize how little she can do overall, but thinking a little of it, I don't know much about Ganon, and maybe figuring more and more things about him he may result being even worse.

Dtilt and dsmash are also very good. These 2 and usmash are probably her best moves.
Her dash attack, jab, Nayru's Love and Din's Fire are all good for different things but certainly aren't on the level of usmash/dsmash/dtilt.
Aerials are (outside of nair) terrifyingly strong, however they're all very unsafe on shield, situational and telegraphed.

I also think her dashgrab is nice.
Not good or anything, but at least it grabs better than her Standing and Pivot grabs.

Her main problem is that she can't approach, due to
-Pretty bad mobility
-All of her attacks are terrible on shield and have terrible range
-Has one of the worst grabs in the game (horrible startup, horrible range, good chunk of cooldown)

I really think she has nice mobility, but lacks of tools to make something with it.

She also lacks strong OoS options, has bad recovery, has a terrible air game and gets juggled easily, can be camped and walled out easily...that's all I know.

I don't think she can't be walled easily, at least not by every character. Din's Fire is terrifying if someone just wants to wall her and lacks of a good projectyle or a fast, ranged attack.

Her d-tilt is pretty good, not just okay. It has a very high trip rate, and it can be followed up with additional d-tilts. Later on, you can follow it up with a KO attack.

iirc, trip rate is a global 1%. I may be wrong on that.

Why are people never taking Captain Falcon into consideration when talking about the worst character?

Because he's fast and mobile, and can mix-up his (bad) moves in order to make them work, unlike Ganon and Zelda.
He's bad, but not very bad.

Not that anyone should care anyway. These character are severely underrepresented because they are so ridiculously bad. It's hard to make an accurate assessment on any of these characters.

Low tiers are always a grey area when it comes to Brawl, they are so obscure and few people use them well, and others realize they are bad and simply drop them, preventing them from improving the characters' metagame, which may not get much further but it's still not at its optimal point...

 

[infiniteV115]

The 1% trip rate applies to every time you initiate a dash, with any character (although with ICs I guess it's kinda 2% cause it's 1% per climber)

I believe some attacks have trip rates as high as 30%. Not sure though. But it's definitely not 1% per move that can trip you.

 

[Tesh]

DK Dtilt has a 40% trip rate I believe.

Also, almost any move with a low angle (or low enough knockback that you don't leave the ground) can trip you.

 

[Alacion]

Zelda's down tilt is 40% also

 

[Tesh]

Zelda's Dtilt might as well be like 90%. I never see the first one coming, then the next one or two trips me while im trying to SDI out.

She is like low tier olimar, she is just too frustrating to be worst.

 

[ぱみゅ]

lol idk how I read it wrong, I thought he said she had a high trip rate. My bad

The 1% trip rate applies to every time you initiate a dash, with any character (although with ICs I guess it's kinda 2% cause it's 1% per climber)

Technically is still 1%:
2%, but they run 200% as much as every character.

 

[da K.I.D.]

just for the sake of accuracy and knowledge.

Luigi has a 2% trip rate.

I feel like showing luigi to be a giant klutz was the only reason tripping was put in this game...

 

[GOofyGV]

@V115 I can remeber that shugo did beat atomsk at Apex 2012. IC's-Falco but IIRC shugo went MK game 3

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yo, Luigi is amazing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Proof of Luigi double trip-rate plz?

 

[| Big D |]

Luigi has a 1% trip rate, the 2% is a myth told by mothers to their misbehaving children.

 

[Vinylic.]

All trip rates are equal when initiating a dash, right?

If every character had different trip rate, that would be bad.

 

[Z'zgashi]

No weegee definitely has a 2% trip rate, its been confirmed by the lab of smash.

But other than weegee, yeah, everyone else has 1%.

 

[DeLux]

No weegee definitely has a 2% trip rate, its been confirmed by the lab of smash.

But other than weegee, yeah, everyone else has 1%.

can you link me to said confirmation?

Nobody I've asked has been able to confirm that for me in the Lab

Not saying you're wrong, just I feel like I read that somewhere too, but as far as info goes I've grown more and more weary of sources as I've found more and more misundestandings of mechanics

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Proof of Luigi double trip-rate plz?

tenproofsplz

 

[DMG]

All that I heard of was Ice tripping rate being higher.

 

[Orion*]

Theres just 2 of them.... so technically it's double.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I think he means that when you're on ice terrain (like Summit or the ice transformation on PS2) your trip rate is doubled.

 

[Ishiey]

Two ICs does not mean they have a doubled (2%) trip rate. Percentages don't add. It means you have two characters with a 1% trip rate. So 2*99%*1%=1.98% chance of one ICs tripping, a 1%*1%=0.01% chance of both ICs tripping, and a 99%*99%=98.01% chance of neither IC tripping.

Sorry, I know it's basically 2%, but the faulty logic people were using to get there was bugging me >__> blah.

 

[C.J.]

I disagree, Ishey.
Running two independent tests, you add the probabilities when looking for either/or to happen.

You have 2 decks of cards. Pick one at random from each. You want at last one of them to be a king.
4/52 + 4/52

Likewise, you add the probabilities (.01 in this case) when looking for either/or climber to trip.

I agree with the rest because those are "and" statements. But for "or" statements, you just add the probabilities.

 

[Ishiey]

Wait, what?

Two decks, 4/52=1/13 chance of a draw from one deck being a king.

Chances of a king from only one deck = 2 (for the two decks) times 1/13 (probability of getting a king) times 12/13 (probability of not getting a king) = 24/169
Chances of getting a king from both = 1/13*1/13= 1/169
Chances of not getting a king from either = 12/13*12/13 = 144/169

Chances of getting at least one king = (24+1)/169, which is not the same as 8/52.

If I'm doing something wrong, halp? I really don't like being wrong about basic math :x

 

[infiniteV115]

Ishiey is right about the deck example, CJ. To calculate the chance of drawing at least 1 king, then you have to add the probabilities of each of the following events

-First deck produces king while second doesn't
-First deck doesn't produce king while second does
-Both decks produce a king

So it's 25/169. And since this is an analogy for ICs tripping, that means there's a 1.98% chance that a trip will occur with ICs (ie at least 1 of them will trip)

Blackgold, iirc ICs can't trip on ice (this was intentionally designed because it's supposed to make sense because they're wearing those ice-cleat thingies...and I believe their traction is unaffected by ice as well)

I'm fairly certain that the 2% trip rate for Luigi is a myth. I've also heard that Marth has the highest trip rate in the game -.-

 

[SoulPech]

I disagree, Ishey.
Running two independent tests, you add the probabilities when looking for either/or to happen.

You have 2 decks of cards. Pick one at random from each. You want at last one of them to be a king.
4/52 + 4/52

Likewise, you add the probabilities (.01 in this case) when looking for either/or climber to trip.

I agree with the rest because those are "and" statements. But for "or" statements, you just add the probabilities.

Wait, what?

Two decks, 4/52=1/13 chance of a draw from one deck being a king.

Chances of a king from only one deck = 2 (for the two decks) times 1/13 (probability of getting a king) times 12/13 (probability of not getting a king) = 24/169
Chances of getting a king from both = 1/13*1/13= 1/169
Chances of not getting a king from either = 12/13*12/13 = 144/169

Chances of getting at least one king = (24+1)/169, which is not the same as 8/52.

If I'm doing something wrong, halp? I really don't like being wrong about basic math :x

tl;dr: This is Brawl, not card games -_-;