Official BBR Tier List v7

[Mr-R]

I love you so much right now C.J.

Amazing post

one thing though, I've never played myo offline so that part is not true. dunno where delux got that from

 

[C.J.]

>implying you have ever NOT loved me

<3

Then I'll edit that part out. Thanks for the catch!

 

[GOofyGV]

Well sorry the missunderstanding then. The part about snake was right and That's what I was trying to say.

 

[SoulPech]

What does that even mean? That's like saying, "I'm usually much better than this," the sort of thing you hear scrubs say after getting destroyed at their first tournament.

I see who you're referencing...

 

[Mr-R]

Well sorry the missunderstanding then. The part about snake was right and That's what I was trying to say.

It's all good ;D just don't wanna come over as a total douchebag in reflex' eyes XD

 

[Dyscharge]

Can you tell everyone how to play him right so he can start winning tournaments?

It's all in the timing. I play conservative with his F-air and D-air; since most brawl players are spastic AF, I always bait them into making stupid mistakes then I punish with my d-air. Then normally I just harass them around with my F-air. Ofc my strategy isn't perfect, I just found that it works 60% of the time.

 

[GOofyGV]

It's all good ;D just don't wanna come over as a total douchebag in reflex' eyes XD

Yeah but the thing is It's my fault then lol. ANd I don't want that

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's all in the timing. I play conservative with his F-air and D-air; since most brawl players are spastic AF, I always bait them into making stupid mistakes then I punish with my d-air. Then normally I just harass them around with my F-air. Ofc my strategy isn't perfect, I just found that it works 60% of the time.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Yeah...from what I understand, Ramin went Snake game 3 against Meek in his pools set, so assuming he went Marth the other 2 games, his Marth went 1-1 with his Sonic in that set.
And I'm pretty sure there was a pool tie and they played again and Ramin 2-0'd him XD
I suppose I should double check this info with Meek though
Btw, Meek lost to a Marth player from my region that you've probably never heard of (Suzaku) at a local like 2 months before Apex.
And is there even anything to suggest that Ramin is at least decently experienced in the Sonic MU?
How long ago was MH:X?
Azen:Neo sounds REALLY old lol

Uh...is there anything to suggest that Ramin knows the ROB MU? >_>
Cause so far it looks like Luminous vs Mikeneko is the only one worth mentioning
You've always been against using top players' opinions to affect MU ratios, why are you using the opinions of bad players? XD

9B vs Mikeneko is good I guess.
Who the **** is Meep and when did he beat Neo XD
Kadaj....is not exactly a top level Marth? And is there anything to suggest that he's experienced in the MU?
Vinnie:MH is also good I guess
I thought MH:Hylian was a MM

Don't know if you can know 's and not think of Meep. Meep was possibly the best player Md/Va ever had. He was a true god among 's and helped cultivate their metagame from 08-10. People say Azen, Junebug, or Candy were our best players of all time, but Meep is the ONLY one who has beaten Ally, M2k prime, and Adhd. Meep destroyed Neo everytime. Meep quit for Marvel and placed 13th(?) at Evo.

I'll always be biased in the regard that I think Meep was better or at the same level Vinnie is now.

Edit: I don't think Neo lost to Speed and if he did it was only one time.

 

[Cassio]

Pika v Wolf - This has sorta always been my opinion, but with more experience in general I feel more confident about this aspect in particular. I really think this ratio depends on whether or not you include the 0-death. I think the same is true for Falcon's ratio as well (between -3 vs -4) The problem is all pikachu players have essentially said "these MUs are already heavily skewed in our favor, im not even gonna bother with this when I can spend that time elsewhere" so its understandable it would be ignored as well.

A chaingrab that does up to 100+ percent is bad, but killing is so significant in Brawl that it really is that much worse. If we assume pika gets a chaingrab off at roughly 0%, a little momentum by either wolf or falcon (since both can combo fairly well) and theyve already made up half a stock whereas pika is going hit by hit at higher percents. On the other hand if he gets that kill and both are starting at that same point + pika being a stock better for it thats a very significant difference.

I think everyone essentially thinks its 2.5, imo w the 0-death it tilts -3 and without it tilts -2.

Dammit I was making a big post and I closed the tab by accident

Basically I was saying that the only majors I can think of where Falco got 1st were Apex 2010 and E4UC (both won by Larry)

Larry never faced any ICs at Apex 2010 except for Atomsk's, Larry won 2-1 cause Atomsk went MK game 3
Shugo was also there and he went full MK against Vex's ICs
The only other 2 ICs that made bracket were Lain and Swordgard...Swordgard lost to Jerm and Inui (lol) and Lain lost to M2K and Lee, knocking out Atomsk (one of the other ICs players in bracket) along the way.
There were no Pikachus in bracket, ESAM didn't attend, Vinnie didn't play ICs then, etc etc

At E4UC I think Vinnie was the only ICs player there and he lost to Mike Haze and Mr.R, and he didn't face Larry cause Larry didn't get sent to losers'
If there was a good Pikachu there, it was Z, but idk if he faced Larry (and if he did, Larry probably went MK/ICs cause that's what he's done in the past). ESAM didn't attend. Couldn't find the results for this one.

Then you have events like SKTAR where Larry gets 2nd in pools cause Jband used ICs on him, then Larry loses to Leon (Marth) and Vinnie (ICs) in bracket
And SRT where Masha lost to Vinnie (ICs) and somebody else, dunno who. Probably like 9B/Otori/Rain.

TL;DR Referring to Falco getting 1st only at majors where there were no good ICs/Pikachus isn't really doing much in countering my argument that Falco is less viable than Marth because he gets countered by ICs and Pikachu...cause by making that argument, the only results you're really referring to is the fact that Larry took 1 game off of Atomsk's ICs in 2010 XD

Larry also won revelations, hes about to be 1st on socal's upcoming PR.

In regards to Falco, he has two very doable -2's. This is Larry's opinion as well. At top level theyre about the same difficulty (pika is slightly worse imo), but Larry is likely the best player in North America at the pikachu MU whereas he and socal in general have little practice vs competent ICs (which he admits). So I do believe falco is a powerful national threat, and results seem to imply this well enough.

On the other hand while marth pulls in very consistent results, on a national level theyve also been consistently underwhelming. Mikeneko's been making some noise in japan that might cause a second look, but otherwise its understandable why people may have this opinion.

Personally while I will definitely consider general results, I tend take a lens to top level performance.

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh yeah. Revelations.
Did he play any beat any notable ICs/Pikachus at that with Falco?

 

[DeLux]

I love you so much right now C.J.

Amazing post

one thing though, I've never played myo offline so that part is not true. dunno where delux got that from

I made a mistake. I actually ended up editing that post (was trying to point Kel in the direction of some good IC/Marth sets) since it was Leon that put on the clinic :D

Although I have no doubt you could do just as well lol. Probably why I made the mistake in the first place

 

[Cassio]

The last time larry used falco vs ICs he took vinnie to last hit. Im sure the argument could be made vinnie could have done better, but the same could be stated for larry as well. Larry also did a 5 game MM vs ESAMs pika at SKTAR and took him to last game last hit. Both seem to fit the definition for -2.

The Falco/Marth dynamic is an area ive always been quite interested in coming from the same region as its respective top north american players.

 

[Dantarion]

What does that even mean? That's like saying, "I'm usually much better than this," the sort of thing you hear scrubs say after getting destroyed at their first tournament.

Saw this and had to!

 

[C.J.]

SPEED! That's the Sonic I couldn't think of, thanks Joe!

I'm too lazy to go edit my post again, but then add in Delux's comment about Leon/Myo then.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think everyone essentially thinks its 2.5, imo w the 0-death it tilts -3 and without it tilts -2.

Should be -3 on the chart, in that case. Otherwise, following this trend, we'd inflate all low tier MUs cause no one knows how to play against them, and deflate high tier MUs because people do.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It's kind-of sad that Marth doesn't destroy Ganon.
Also, I thought the consensus was that Diddy beats Marth slightly?

It's even. Marth players just need to get better at dealing with Diddy's peanuts

 

[Zinoto]

^ Yup

10 yups.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Sonic v Marth: X has only ever lost to Mike like, once. Im pretty sure hes like 4-1 over him lol.

Regardless though I dont know anything about the MU

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well, actually, Sonic does tend to beat Marth. There's not really a discussion to be had there.

Not really no.
If people really believe Marth has an unfavorable matchup against Sonic then they clearly over estimate Sonic's capabilities.

Whether or not he should be beating him is an argument we can have, but if you think Marth has an advantage you're going to have to work harder to validate your position since you don't have historical evidence on your side.

Not really no, because there were many cases of Sonic users such as X beating Marth users of high level in the past.
There have also been cases where Sonic users lose to Marth but lo and behold people cannot recall them, frankly since no one really likes Marth.
That doesn't change anything about the character's, it just changes people's perspectives about the character.


This is also part of why the Marth vs Sonic match up is a very close one.
No this is not based off of paper, because on paper, Marth would have a solid advantage over Sonic and we know this to simply not be true due to the potential of his canceling ability. Something that pushes the matchup towards being even.

This is why it is not a surprise to see a Sonic beat a Marth. It is very much a winnable match up.
People act like it is because Marth is a high tier character and Sonic is a mid tier character.
Which is entirely irrelevant in a case by case scenario.

Simple as that really and it boggles me why people try to complicate it more than it needs to be.

Marth has an easier time facing Sonic than Sonic does facing Marth.
It is not something you can evaluate properly on paper due to Sonic's gameplay and that is partly why the match up is a close one.
Otherwise, on paper, Marth would spank Sonic solidly.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

What does that even mean? That's like saying, "I'm usually much better than this," the sort of thing you hear scrubs say after getting destroyed at their first tournament.

I can relate to this. When I watch high level play I think to myself "wow, these guys aren't that much better than me, I could beat them no problem" The reason why is that when I play my friends, the skill gap lets me get far ahead, so I feel like I am much better than I actually am. A good player vs. a good player can look similar to a fantastic player vs. a fantastic player in a good player's eyes. The difference is that at the lower level, options aren't seen as obviously at the time, and when playing against someone at a similar skill level, these options don't frequently come up.

That might be horribly worded, I can't think right now.

 

[infiniteV115]

It wasn't necessarily badly worded, it was just focusing more on the issue of bad players being unable to comprehend why top level play is top level play, so it took me a while to relate it to scrubs thinking they're playing badly when in actuality they're playing the way they always do, just against a player that isn't also trash.

 

[SSS]

Hola. I was just wondering what exactly about Zelda makes her so bad.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

She lacks a good killing move, her recovery is god awful, she has pretty slow moves all around, and she can be SDI'd on most of her moves. Her camping game is bad, and her close range game isn't too good either.

 

[Vinnie]

I don't know actually. I've never played Vinnie in tourney. I'm 2-1 with you this year. McPP is 1-0 vs Esam's . JJwolf lost to Vinnie's game 3 in 2011 in some hype set !

Clarifying, I had to forfeit game 2 due to me having Cheese's weird tag on by accident.

 

[Vinnie]

The last time larry used falco vs ICs he took vinnie to last hit. Im sure the argument could be made vinnie could have done better, but the same could be stated for larry as well. Larry also did a 5 game MM vs ESAMs pika at SKTAR and took him to last game last hit. Both seem to fit the definition for -2.

You're using the best-case-scenario for both matchups. How about Larry losing to Jband badly, that same tournament? Or me 2-0, 2-0, and 3-0ing Larry/Masha/Shugo? You can't use "Larry getting close" as a basis to say a matchup isn't terrible, especially when he's lost way harder in other sets.

*edit*: sorry for double posting, didn't realize this was in the same thread.

 

[ぱみゅ]

She lacks a good killing move, her recovery is god awful, she has pretty slow moves all around, and she can be SDI'd on most of her moves. Her camping game is bad, and her close range game isn't too good either.

Also, she is very floaty and gets juggled pretty badly (also her aerials are bad), her reflector has millenia of ending lag and can't really score a kill efficently without taking risks and get punished for them.

On the good side, she has a decent wall (Fsmash), a nice, fast GTFO/semigimp move (Dsmash), a pretty good anti-air (Usmash, that also kills pretty early), a decent Air Dodge and an "okay" approach move (Nair).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I thought Zelda had the worst air dodge, tied with Peach? I'm pretty sure they have the same air dodge in Melee, might be getting confused.

Dsmash is legitimately her only good move.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Zelda's ground moves are all pretty decent.

The weakness lies in her horrid mobility. She's just to damn slow to utilize or get into range with any of them, without it being incredibly telegraphed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Her fsmash is sooo easily SDI'd out of, and her usmash has situational hitbox placement (poor horizontal range).

Ftilt and Dtilt are okay, but both have their flaws. Utilt is slow and has no range. Jab is just suck in every way.

Dsmash is her only good move.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Actually, her ground moves are all either slow or laggy, and her aerial moves are ridiculously hard to sweetspot and useless otherwise (except Nair; her other moves are so terrible that makes Nair look good).
And she's pretty mobile, alt least in the air, but her with air her moves being that bad she's just destined to fail eventually.

The only reason I said her airdodge is decent is because it allows for landing mixups, as it can be cancelled pretty early, and AD>Fsmash is probably her best walling option.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Anything to Fsmash wouldn't work if people were scared enough of Zelda to SDI it.

 

[GOofyGV]

actualy this leaves me with the next questin.

Zelda or Ganon? as worst.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If more people figure Zelda out, they'll see she lacks options and can't do anything without taking risks.
The exact same can be said about Ganon, except he hits harder and gets more reward... so....

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Ganon shouldn't be worst. IMO Zelda's beneath him.
He kills early, has guaranteed follow ups on half the cast, guaranteed KILLS on half of the cast (instant Dash Attack, Ftilt or Dtilt) from gerudo.
His up air is amazing. He's certainly a bad character, with some terrible match ups due to being walled so easily.

But. He's not THE worst.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I third this. Ganon > Zelda.

 

[Cassio]

You're using the best-case-scenario for both matchups. How about Larry losing to Jband badly, that same tournament? Or me 2-0, 2-0, and 3-0ing Larry/Masha/Shugo? You can't use "Larry getting close" as a basis to say a matchup isn't terrible, especially when he's lost way harder in other sets.

*edit*: sorry for double posting, didn't realize this was in the same thread.

I actually said the opposite, that neither of those scenario should be used. Also if youd read the discussion youd notice that it wasnt the only nor what I considered the most important point. I also believe youre leaving out relevant info, lol, but since Im a second hand party I wont push it.

 

[Uncle]

One of Zelda's special moves transform her into a mid-tier character, though. Ganon can't beat that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sounds like you aren't using his utilt correctly.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I dunno, Zelda can like... cover options, sometimes. lol