Official BBR Tier List v7

[DMG]

Wolf Wario is not that bad. DK Wario is a MU that's pretttttty close to -3 lol. Wolf Wario is only a solid edge: you couldn't just CP a Wolf main with a secondary Wario and likely win.

 

[infiniteV115]

Fox beats D3 because Fox doesn't get CGed and Fox is better than D3.
I laughed while posting this cause I put D3 above Fox in my tier list (iirc), but yeah D3 sucks. He's not really high tier, it's just his bair and CG that are high tier. DDD's actually like bottom tier.

 

[Naridax]

This is not the North American Tier List though.

It may not have the title, the North American Tier List, but the Official BBR Tier Lists have been constructed mostly based on examinations of the North American metagame done mostly by North Americans. Until this tier list, there didn't seem to be much influence from regions outside of North America. The major change in this tier list, Olimar's jump to second, was undeniably the result of Nietono's second place finish at APEX2012 and previous successes in Japan, but I think this decision was made too hastily because Olimar players have not performed at a level that warrants Olimar's placement on this tier list since APEX2012. (I think Olimar is top tier but not second after Metaknight.) After APEX, Nietono continued to place well in East Japan, but his dominance seems to be over.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo, I agree that Japanese results shouldnt be used for an NA tier list, HOWEVER, players from Japan in NA tournaments with our rules SHOULD count. Who cares where theyre from, if they place while using the rules that our list is based off, that shows that with our rules, those characters can still succeed and do as well as they did.

Honestly dont remember if anyone ever disagreed with what Im saying, but yeah, thats what I think lol.

 

[Yonder]

Bottom:
G:
H:

So people list that even Samus is better than Luigi now? Wow, things certainly do change when you don't pay attention to the Brawl meta game for a couple of years.

 

[Uncle]

Just a note To anybody making a tier list of their own. There honestly isnt more than 5-6 seperate tiers of viability (including one of mk by himself so 4-5 w/o him) for all the characters in the game
Characters that are expected to win tournaments
Characters that dont surprise you when they win tournaments.
Characters that DO surprise you when they win tournaments
Characters that really shouldnt be winning tournaments.
And characters that dont/wont win tourments.

I agree with you there, and I never liked the fact that the list was composed of named tiers with 1-3 lettered subtiers each. We really don't need that many tiers.

Here's my attempt at a five-tier list.

Top:
High:
Mid:
Low:
Bottom:

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo if I wanna be blatantly honest about Kid's opinion at a top level at like, Nationals and such (and man have I just been throwing out my opinions left and right lately lol):

Characters that are expected to win tournaments

Characters that dont surprise you when they win tournaments.

Characters that DO surprise you when they win tournaments

Characters that really shouldnt be winning tournaments.

Characters that dont/wont win tourments.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Honestly, a non-ESAM Pikachu does surprise when he wins a tournament
And Fox winning isn't that very surprising either.
Other than that, yeah, it looks about right

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't know how you can expect Falco to win tournaments but you don't expect Marth to win tournaments, when Falco has 2 hard counters to get by (and MK is either even or slight disadvantage for him) and goes even/slightly beats all the other relevant characters, whereas Marth has 2-3 slight disadvantages and goes even/slightly beats all other relevant characters.

 

[fox67890]

I don't see how could be argued as better then either having a ton of -3's and -2's. Anyone ever seen / vs ? Those 2 matchups are terrifying to watch as gets limited incredibly. And those aren't even his death matchups.

I've seen Oli vs Fox, and it's not bad at all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8cX1zpWbdo

I personally haven't seen any vids of Fox getting dominated by Diddy, so I won't speak about that. I've, however, seen Yui do just fine against them.

Tbh, the only top Fox that I've actually seen play the Fox Vs Sheik MU is Yui usually against Earth, and it honestly feels like I've seen Yui beat Earth's Sheik more than the other way around (not 100% sure if Yui has won it more, but I've seen Yui win it a whole bunch of times). The last time I watched them played, Yui 2-0'd Earth. I don't really understand why the MU is listed as -3 if it's won by the -3 side that much. :\

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The problem with your estimations is - as silly as it may sound - that the term "tournament" is vague. If somebody wins an absolute scrub-tourney with Ganon then the surprise-factor is hardly there. Where do you draw the line here? What tournaments are elegible?

I don't know how you can expect Falco to win tournaments but you don't expect Marth to win tournaments, when Falco has 2 hard counters to get by (and MK is either even or slight disadvantage for him) and goes even/slightly beats all the other relevant characters, whereas Marth has 2-3 slight disadvantages and goes even/slightly beats all other relevant characters.

The idea that Marth only has "two or three slight disadvantages and is even or slightly beats everybody else" has proven to be untrue numerous times. Marth loses noticeably to MK, has a disadvantage to ICs and DDD as well. ROB / Sonic both have favorable tourney records against Marth - arguing the match-ups to not be in ROB / Sonic's favor is arguing against facts. If you go strictly by tournament results [which I prefer to do, especially when a lot of results are at hand] then Marth has at least 5 match-ups that are in the opponent's favor.

Falco has one hard-counter [ICs] and one really diffcult match-up [Pikachu] and that's it. Not only does he not really lose to any other characters but arguments have been made that Falco beats Olimar [backed up by results on numerous occasions], Diddy Kong [hard to say] and Snake [unlikely and pretty much proven wrong by tourney results; still even though].

Falco is definitely better than Marth. Depending on how you much you wanna read into his worse match-up you can argue him to be as good as 4th and about as low as 6th but he will always be a better character than Marth.

 

[Shaya]

You think Marth loses noticeably to MK now?

And you still have your head up your *** in terms of Marth/ICs... sigh

 

[Shadocat]

I agree with you there, and I never liked the fact that the list was composed of named tiers with 1-3 lettered subtiers each. We really don't need that many tiers.

Here's my attempt at a five-tier list.

Top:
High:
Mid:
Low:
Bottom:

Mfw no

Well heres my attempt to do a five-tier list:

Top:
High:
Mid:
Low: :
Bottom:

 

[ぱみゅ]

hey Gheb (and V115), Gashi didn't even make aspecific post, he was just making his point of what a Tier is and used a random tier list to try to prove it.
Arguing specifics for THAT one post is pretty dumb.

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ wut? I meant what I said and made that list specifically for Kid's criteria.

I don't know how you can expect Falco to win tournaments but you don't expect Marth to win tournaments

Cuz Marth players are bad

Srsly though its cuz Marth is a more difficult character to play at high level. While yes, Falco does have more bad MUs, Marth requires more consistent precision and spacing than 'lol spam lasers and dthrow' Falco. And in case anyone wants to be like BUT FALCO HAS MORE THAN JU- shut up lol I know, I made a funny.

But yeah, you really need to play on point A LOT to win a whole tournament with Marth, but seeing as Marth is a fantastic character, I wouldnt be surprised to see him win, I just wouldnt really expect it, hence the position I put him in.

 

[infiniteV115]

Z, you make it sound like Falco is easy to use at top level. :\
Gheb, I was unaware that ROB and Sonic had a winning record against Marth...which ROBs and Sonics have beaten which Marths? :S (I'm assuming that the ICs' favourable record over Marth is due to 9B lol)
The 2-3 disadvantageous MUs I was referring to for Marth were MK, DDD and Diddy, with Diddy being the possibly-even one.
Also, going strictly by results doesn't really make any sense because it rules out the possibility of players losing even/slightly advantageous MUs due to being outplayed by the opponent.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If theres a huge National tournament and Larry is in attendance, he will most likely be a top contender for winning it all in almost any setting. With Marth however, I just cant think of a Marth who I think 'oh I could totally see him winning this' when he's theres. Sure, there are great Marths and I definitely wouldnt be surprised seeing any in top 8, but I wouldnt think of any of them as possible Champions, unlike some Falco players like Larry, which is why Id Expect Falco to win tournaments, and not Marth. Like I said, I wouldnt be surprised seeing a Marth win, I just wouldnt expect Marth to take an event whereas I could and have seen Falcos do so.

 

[Naridax]

Outside of Europe, where two of their best players are Marth players, one of which is most likely Europe's very best player, when was the last time a Marth player won a major tournament?

 

[BlueXenon]

This is my version of the tier list:

Top
S. MK. IC's
A. Diddy Kong, Olimar, Snake, Falco
B. Marth, Pikachu, Wario
High
C. ZSS, Lucario, Toon Link, King DDD, Wolf
D. GW, Fox, Pit, Peach, Rob
Mid
E. Kirby. Ike, Ness, Sonic, Donkey Kong, Sheik
F. Yoshi, PT, Luigi, Lucas
Low
G. Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon
H. Link, Jigglypuff
Very Low
I. Zelda, Ganondorf

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ Oh look, its my list only with different tier separations, a few minor 1-2 spot changes, Ness higher, and 2 Kirbies.

 

[BlueXenon]

Lol at the 2 kirby's. Thankyou for telling me I didnt notice. I based my list from the original one on the first page.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf is suprisingly good against pika for some reason xD

I think wolf goes even with IC's (at best really, I played an IC recently and almost lost cuz i can space perfectly and hit one climber whereas the other powershields and grabs because im in hitlag or whatever its called. That really made me feel like the MU's an entire gamble that skewes in IC's favor)...whereas rob beats ic's with +1 or something

Gull, honestly, where do you get your matchup numbers from? I do realize rob - diddy is pretty bad, but I don't really feel like wolf - diddy is much good either. And if people consider OCEAN - ADHD, they should consider OCEAN - m2k as well.

Btw honestly I also think rob does better vs d3 than wolf. Wolf's way to grab, easier to mess with offstage. Fox just destroys d3. Weird.

From observations/results. doesn't do better vs as long as a LGL is in place if we're using a +/- scale. In terms of a real ratio does better then . They're both -3 matchups, but 's is more 2-8 while :rob's is 3-7.

I fully agree with you about vs . Even or -1 for .

And does poorly vs outside of the cg. All his moves get punished hard because he lacks range. The cg is just gayuhz.

In regards to : I don't see how vs isn't even or 45-55 (-1). At high level of play vs 's my matches and Kain's have gone back and forth except vs Adhd (Top level). There is no that is on par with Adhd's skill level, but that also holds true for a number of characters Wyatt bodies. Kain is 1-1 with Zinoto. I've recently started to beat Lie after learning instant toss and shielding vs Fair (loool) and have beaten P-1/Esoj before. I only really feel outplayed vs Wyatt.

The reason people take into account ADHD vs Ocean, but not Ocean vs M2k is because M2k neglects to learn matchups. The mixups Ocean was doing no other has ever done vs him before. The surprise factor was in place. Ocean however has definitely played multiple 's around ADHD's level (I don't remember the names of the Japanese ones, but I think Ganbarani is one).

The problem with your estimations is - as silly as it may sound - that the term "tournament" is vague. If somebody wins an absolute scrub-tourney with Ganon then the surprise-factor is hardly there. Where do you draw the line here? What tournaments are elegible?

The idea that Marth only has "two or three slight disadvantages and is even or slightly beats everybody else" has proven to be untrue numerous times. Marth loses noticeably to MK, has a disadvantage to ICs and DDD as well. ROB / Sonic both have favorable tourney records against Marth - arguing the match-ups to not be in ROB / Sonic's favor is arguing against facts. If you go strictly by tournament results [which I prefer to do, especially when a lot of results are at hand] then Marth has at least 5 match-ups that are in the opponent's favor.

Falco has one hard-counter [ICs] and one really diffcult match-up [Pikachu] and that's it. Not only does he not really lose to any other characters but arguments have been made that Falco beats Olimar [backed up by results on numerous occasions], Diddy Kong [hard to say] and Snake [unlikely and pretty much proven wrong by tourney results; still even though].

Falco is definitely better than Marth. Depending on how you much you wanna read into his worse match-up you can argue him to be as good as 4th and about as low as 6th but he will always be a better character than Marth.

Everything Gheb said was true.

Z, you make it sound like Falco is easy to use at top level. :\
Gheb, I was unaware that ROB and Sonic had a winning record against Marth...which ROBs and Sonics have beaten which Marths? :S (I'm assuming that the ICs' favourable record over Marth is due to 9B lol)
The 2-3 disadvantageous MUs I was referring to for Marth were MK, DDD and Diddy, with Diddy being the possibly-even one.
Also, going strictly by results doesn't really make any sense because it rules out the possibility of players losing even/slightly advantageous MUs due to being outplayed by the opponent.

Probably some Japan stuff.

 

[DeLux]

Seagull,

When was the last time a high profile IC beat a high profile Wolf in tournament?

Spoiler

outside of mine and Kain's fluke

I can name you quite a few high profile Wolf's beating a few high profile ICs

 

[Seagull Joe]

Seagull,

When was the last time a high profile IC beat a high profile Wolf in tournament?

Spoiler

outside of mine and Kain's fluke

I can name you quite a few high profile Wolf's beating a few high profile ICs

I don't know actually. I've never played Vinnie in tourney. I'm 2-1 with you this year. McPP is 1-0 vs Esam's . JJwolf lost to Vinnie's game 3 in 2011 in some hype set !

 

[DeLux]

Kain is 2-1 as well with me and he beat Dojo at Whobo. He's also beaten every other IC player since the dawn of time.

Just saying. Results seem to indicate that it's either even to wolf's favor. In my opinion, it's probably +3 wolf's favor though

 

[Seagull Joe]

Kain is 2-1 as well with me and he beat Dojo at Whobo. He's also beaten every other IC player since the dawn of time.

Just saying. Results seem to indicate that it's either even to wolf's favor. In my opinion, it's probably +3 wolf's favor though

Holms beat Dojo too, but I think that was when Dojo used .

 

[DeLux]

Therefore, I win the argument
Wolf beats ICs just as bad as Rob does

If I see you say "Wolf is -1 with ICs again" I swear to god I'm picking up DDD. Don't make me do it

 

[Seagull Joe]

Therefore, I win the argument
Wolf beats ICs just as bad as Rob does

If I see you say "Wolf is -1 with ICs again" I swear to god I'm picking up DDD. Don't make me do it

+3's .

 

[Z'zgashi]

Thats almost as ridiculous as saying Bowser goes even with ICs.

 

[infiniteV115]

Dammit I was making a big post and I closed the tab by accident

Basically I was saying that the only majors I can think of where Falco got 1st were Apex 2010 and E4UC (both won by Larry)

Larry never faced any ICs at Apex 2010 except for Atomsk's, Larry won 2-1 cause Atomsk went MK game 3
Shugo was also there and he went full MK against Vex's ICs
The only other 2 ICs that made bracket were Lain and Swordgard...Swordgard lost to Jerm and Inui (lol) and Lain lost to M2K and Lee, knocking out Atomsk (one of the other ICs players in bracket) along the way.
There were no Pikachus in bracket, ESAM didn't attend, Vinnie didn't play ICs then, etc etc

At E4UC I think Vinnie was the only ICs player there and he lost to Mike Haze and Mr.R, and he didn't face Larry cause Larry didn't get sent to losers'
If there was a good Pikachu there, it was Z, but idk if he faced Larry (and if he did, Larry probably went MK/ICs cause that's what he's done in the past). ESAM didn't attend. Couldn't find the results for this one.

Then you have events like SKTAR where Larry gets 2nd in pools cause Jband used ICs on him, then Larry loses to Leon (Marth) and Vinnie (ICs) in bracket
And SRT where Masha lost to Vinnie (ICs) and somebody else, dunno who. Probably like 9B/Otori/Rain.

TL;DR Referring to Falco getting 1st only at majors where there were no good ICs/Pikachus isn't really doing much in countering my argument that Falco is less viable than Marth because he gets countered by ICs and Pikachu...cause by making that argument, the only results you're really referring to is the fact that Larry took 1 game off of Atomsk's ICs in 2010 XD

 

[Z'zgashi]

So basically youre saying that Falco only loses to 2 characters but fail to mention that Marths lose to a random character every time?

Alright.

 

[DeLux]

Thats almost as ridiculous as saying Bowser goes even with ICs.

Bowser DOES go even with ICs >_>

Ask Vinnie. We broke the MU down and are scared when people find out the truth

 

[Vinnie]

Bowser DOES go even with ICs >_>

Ask Vinnie. We broke the MU down and are scared when people find out the truth

*co-signs*

 

[DMG]

That sounds like witch craft

Falco sucks vs IC's duh Shugo would go MK

 

[TheReflexWonder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqtrDri1VdU&feature=plcp

 

[Vinylic.]

Oh god, it's so good.

Would watch it over and over,

 

[infiniteV115]

That last match was...surprising.

 

[Seagull Joe]

That last match was hilarious. That's the way to win sets when you start getting outplayed. Pick Rc as and go hard as ****. Always fun to do .

 

[Ishiey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqtrDri1VdU&feature=plcp

Disappointed with this tbh :/

 

[Uncle]

^ Oh look, its my list only with different tier separations, a few minor 1-2 spot changes, Ness higher, and 2 Kirbies.

At least he remembered to put Kirby.

I'd put him between DK and Sheik on my list, not that it matters.

Bowser DOES go even with ICs >_>

Ask Vinnie. We broke the MU down and are scared when people find out the truth

It involves perfect spacing with fire breath, amirite? FIRE BEATS ICE!