Official BBR Tier List v7

[GOofyGV]

Netherlands is actually dead. They don't have tournaments. Last year it was making it, but the last 12 months, it is literally dead.

Pretty sure delfino is not regularly on in Holland, either that or people always ban it vs me forget LMAO

either way don't expect to see that ish

LOL

I am pretty sure it's legal tbh.

EDIT other stuff is true though some players from south Holland do play like once a month in small smash fests for 8 persons but the top 5 isn't even going to this so yeah. Me and some other people who still try to improve play but that's kinda it.
Imo it would be good if players that know more went to such things. Why? then other players get better because they can learn from good people which makes the comunity better.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Don't many ROBs have a thing with ledges, actually?

If by "a thing," you mean a sordid affair in which Chibo married the ledge for her money and treated her like garbage afterward, then yes.

That being said, ROB timing out a char like D3 isn't going to be stopped by a LGL. You really seem to overestimate how much even a 40 LGL does, Orion. You can retreat to the ledge for awhile until ROB's kit opens you up a chance to step on the stage and then you can jump around a slower opponent like D3 for 20ish seconds before retreating back for another 2-4 ledge grabs. If you're in a region with a 50 LGL, then easy. It's not MK bad, or even G&W bad, but it's not out of the question.

Note, I'm not arguing in favor of ROB advantage here. The issue lies in the fact that he's not completely safe on that ledge. However, believing that a LGL will stop him from timing out the penguin is a bad assumption.

 

[-LzR-]

How are you supposed to get out of the ledge against D3?

 

[Damix91]

Delfino plaza is traditionally illegal in my home region UK though some tournies do have it selectable recently salty run backs has had it legal , most EU stage lists are mainly neutrals, i'm sure there are some other places in Europe that keep it legal, though i don't know of any i never mentioned anything about the stage.

Where is Delfino illegal? Delfino is always legal. Every tourney in UK since I've been in the scene (start of 2010) has had delfino legal. Every major European tournament to my knowledge has had it legal.

 

[Raziek]

If by "a thing," you mean a sordid affair in which Chibo married the ledge for her money and treated her like garbage afterward, then yes.

Where's the upvote button.

I need one.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How are you supposed to get out of the ledge against D3?

Drop off ledge > Up-B to platform (comes with mobility to avoid punish attempts; retreating nair > air dodge to platform)
Jump off ledge > air dodge > dsmash/grab
Jump off ledge > fair
Jump off ledge > b-reversed gyro bait > punish and take stage control
*On Battlefield* Obtain gyro from bottom > Use it to create safe approach

 

[LosTimeTurner]

The characters you put in low are actually good you just need to know how to use em'.

 

[dettadeus]

*On Battlefield* Obtain gyro from bottom > Use it to create safe approach

You can do this on almost any stage that has an edge like FD.
If you aim properly, the gyro will bounce off the edge right back towards you; it's just easiest to do it under the stage on BF.
Also, I think the edges themselves on BF are too thin for it to work. I know for sure it works on SV, FD and a couple other places.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The characters you put in low are actually good you just need to know how to use em'.

technically nobodys saying the character in low and bottom tier are 'bad'. its just that all the other characters in the game are better than them.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can do this on almost any stage that has an edge like FD.
If you aim properly, the gyro will bounce off the edge right back towards you; it's just easiest to do it under the stage on BF.
Also, I think the edges themselves on BF are too thin for it to work. I know for sure it works on SV, FD and a couple other places.

It does, but it isn't as viable because you need moar fuel

 

[dettadeus]

It does, but it isn't as viable because you need moar fuel

I'm pretty sure you need more fuel for the Battlefield thing than the stage-edge thing.

At the very least the amount is about equal, but for the BF one you drop quite a ways then use your DJ and fire the gyro, Zcatch it and then booster back up, while the edge one you end up catching it just below the level of the ledge because you don't have to drop as far to get to the surface you're bouncing it off of.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Interesting. I'll have to practice the non-BF one.

 

[-LzR-]

Why do people consider the gyro trick a viable tactic? You are putting yourself edgeguarded and because of your upB state people can rush you down offstage easily. And what good is a gyro at the ledge anyways?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

omg how r u so bad
what characters can reliably get past rising uair?
also rob can fly to the other side of the stage on BF

 

[-LzR-]

You do realize fuel is really important? You shouldn't waste it. The less fuel you have, the easier it is to just knock you off the ledge once and then you are done for. And so what about rising uair? Grab the ledge, drop off an invincible aerial. Rob doesn't have enough time to airdodge, trying to retreat drains all your fuel and so on. It's putting yourself at an unnecessary risk.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If they grab the ledge, you got to the other side of the stage. Free stage + gyro.
If they don't, you rise up to the close ledge with uair and use gyro to gain stage. Free stage.

I'mma stress that OCEAN does it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The characters you put in low are actually good you just need to know how to use em'.

No. The characters in the lower tiers don't have nearly as many safe/useful options, so if two players of similar skill and matchup knowledge go against each other, the higher tier character will have a noticeable advantage due to having more viable options at his disposal. Obviously, some low tiers have good matchups against some high tiers, but, those matchups are few and far between.

 

[Luco]

No. The characters in the lower tiers don't have nearly as many safe/useful options, so if two players of similar skill and matchup knowledge go against each other, the higher tier character will have a noticeable advantage due to having more viable options at his disposal. Obviously, some low tiers have good matchups against some high tiers, but, those matchups are few and far between.

*follows on from what Reflex is saying... * Of course, while it's almost impossible to have two characters of the same skill level meet, many choose to look at position through top player meta game at the time, which is why the tier list is always changing. Obviously as a player of a low tiered character, i'd love nothing more than to see Lucas rise on the tier list, for instance. As much as people might say the meta game has stabilized, I tend to disagree. :-)

What i'm saying is, be optimistic, in an extremely roundabout way that throws in arguments from a bunch of different viewpoints that, when reading back over this, make no sense in relation to each other. Oh well.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

People have been saying the metagame is stale since early 2009 when Snake was considered #2 in the game and Diddy Kong was mid tier, and they'll keep saying it.

It just isn't true though. Match-ups and our perceptions of them change all the time. We find new information and techniques all the time. The tier list is constantly shifting around. The only true constant has been MK.

No one says MK vs Marth or Falco vs ZSS are unwinnable match-ups anymore, for example.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't remember anyone saying MK/Marth was unwinnable o_O

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's not about the metagame stabilizing. It's about basic options. Something revolutionary would have to happen for a low-tier character to suddenly become realistically viable.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

While that's true, I think that with a solid secondary character, a lot of determination and a lot of luck - you can succeed at top level with a mid or low tier.

It just never happens because of the sparsity of low/mid tier mains who are willing and/or able to take their character that far.

 

[Shaya]

I don't remember anyone saying MK/Marth was unwinnable o_O

I do.

Pretty well.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh haha, I thought European Marths had always handled the MU since 08?
I guess they didn't have as much exposure back then...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

While that's true, I think that with a solid secondary character, a lot of determination and a lot of luck - you can succeed at top level with a mid or low tier.

It just never happens because of the sparsity of low/mid tier mains who are willing and/or able to take their character that far.

"A lot of luck" shouldn't be a necessity for success at top-level play.

Also, I disagree that the problem is "not enough people are willing to take low tiers to their limits." This game isn't especially complicated. In almost every case, the rules they are bound by (be it ruleset or general gameplay) is far and away the biggest offender.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Statistically, the fact that every major has 1 Pokemon Trainer and 100 Meta Knights will make a difference.

And the luck was more referring to luck of location/frequent practice/gaming skill/etc...
Luck of the right person picking the right character, rather than that person relying on tripping to win or some bs

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdE7HHsnjxg

Does this help any other character?

This lets you roll forwards, backwards, but you have to endure shield drop frames. Pivot rolling (so rolling forward in reverse from neutral) was always possible (+1 to the startup for the pivot) but out of shield was not, because tapping back would force a back roll.

This allows a character to pivot roll out of shield. It adds 8 frames to the start of the roll, so it's slower, but if you have a super laggy back roll and a super fast forward roll, it's probably less punishable OOS for you, plus it puts you in a better position.

For most characters froll invulnerability starts on frame 4 (MK and bowser on frame 5) so you could look at this as an option OOS that is 12 frames, which could be good for you if your back roll usually sucks and you have a crappy grab.

 

[C.J.]

Does it work the opposite way?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Can you think of a way to do this that might result in a back roll instead? I actually can't.

Pivot roll is hard reverse dash+shield input.
Pivot roll out of shield is hard reverse dash+shield input, but it has to be done with two dash inputs in this case.

EDIT: Actually there is a more simple way to do the inputs, give me a few.
EDIT2: Nope. You ahve to buffer a reverse dash during shielddrop frames and then shield, there's no other way to do it :\

 

[da K.I.D.]

the only other character I can think of whose forward roll is that much better than their back roll to want to use this...




Meta Knight.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

On average, characters' back rolls tend to be better.

 

[Player-1]

Zero suit samus

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zero suit samus

Yeah well, that' where I do most of my work.

But if I find something that can be useful across the cast I try to share it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

This will obviously be of most help to Yoshi.

****ing 20 frame startup into a slow as hell forward roll.

 

[Steam]

waiting for a day where some common technique that works for every character doesn't benefit MK more than almost every other character.

 

[| Big D |]

Benfits MK but in my experience it works really well against him for the most part.

 

[ぱみゅ]

waiting for the day when people stop overrating MK for a technique that's not even that much useful.

 

[DMG]

It's not that helpful as an OOS option. For a defensive option you're better off trying to spotdodge or normally roll in a direction. As a mixup maybe, using it to retreat if your FR is better than your BR could be ok. Overall though it's not that great because there's not that much difference between rolls. If this did something that rolls didn't do to begin with, like say you could change what direction you faced at the end of the roll, it could have been useful. But you're going to end up facing the same way regardless so even that is poo.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why? ZSS doesn't have any amazing ground options at her back, I'm not even sure what you want.

1. 12 frames isn't great, but in many cases it's long enough to start a roll unpunished
2. The end animation is a lot, lot shorter.

So in what way would this be worse than her current back roll OOS? The fact that her back roll sucks is just another reason her tether grab hurts.

 

[DMG]

Well, I'm looking at her frame data. 38 frames total for back roll, 28 total for forward roll.

Forward Roll intangible from 4-15

Back Roll intangible from 4-19

The difference wouldn't be huge between them. It would take you longer to get invincible, and you're only getting to move a fewww frames faster.

Depending on the character, it would seem much more likely for a character to stuff her up close than to read the backroll and punish it (would still get punished if you did reverse FR but yeah). Like MK Fair into Ftilt/Dsmash seems more likely than MK Fair into dash grab or running nair, and would have more potential to catch her during shield drop/etc. Either way, you have to admit that this is kinda character specific and comes at the cost of more vulnerability upfront.

If you can reverse OOS without shield drop, this would be very useful.