Official BBR Tier List v7

[2-DJeff]

@gheb she has a high full hop. she has great evasion skills and she's fast. but those are things I feel ic can fight against. her moves are 0 on block putting us into a neutral position but that's just like melee ****. I feel those armor pieces really determine the match though

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm not saying it's in her favour.

I know I've said that it was in her favour before and I still stand by that cause I genuinely feel that way, but the recent posts I made weren't supposed to be info in favour of her winning the MU. It was just info.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

we could give a final verdict.

I profoundly disagree. The 'final' verdict on a match-up should not be up to players' opinions, especially when it's supposedly decided by only 3 players who all live in the same state as well. A good verdict could be called if we have a good number of sets between Nick, V115, Salem and Quiksilver for ZSS and 9B, Vinnie and ESAM for ICs. These are frankly the only players of these characters that truly matter [although somebody like Dakpo may claim a spot for ZSS]. At this point, there's no reason to assume this match-up to be anything but even from an unbiased point of view.

I can respect that, V115. I'm just really annoyed by how a lot of people act as if the match-up was *factually* in her favor when it's only an opinion - one that cannot be backed up with empirical evidence.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS has all the things that ICs hates though LOL

 

[infiniteV115]

I profoundly disagree. The 'final' verdict on a match-up should not be up to players' opinions, especially when it's supposedly decided by only 3 players who all live in the same state as well. A good verdict could be called if we have a good number of sets between Nick, V115, Salem and Quiksilver for ZSS and 9B, Vinnie and ESAM for ICs. These are frankly the only players of these characters that truly matter [although somebody like Dakpo may claim a spot for ZSS]. At this point, there's no reason to assume this match-up to be anything but even from an unbiased point of view.

I can respect that, V115. I'm just really annoyed by how a lot of people act as if the match-up was *factually* in her favor when it's only an opinion - one that cannot be backed up with empirical evidence.

If you have such a problem with people stating their opinions as if they're facts, why do you insist on doing it yourself?
I mean by reading this post it sounded like you were basically saying "Results don't suggest that the MU is in either character's favour, so saying that it IS in either character's favour is an unsupported argument"
Which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

And you also say things like this

Why would we assume the match-up to be in ZSS' favor to begin with - let alone +2 - when all results so far indicate quite clearly that it's even?

Which is also a reasonable thing to say.

But then

ICs don't lose any match-up.

gheb

MAYBE rob but lol @Ike / ZSS. Why would ICs lose to such garbage characters.

wat r u doin

ICs don't lose to ZSS, dunno why that myth has ever been spread.

gheb

Marth is +1 IC favor.

stahp

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Marth is +1 ICs favour tho
****ing overrated piece of **** character

also I am so sick of that ****ing meme

 

[DMG]

I like it but it fits SO much better with images

 

[2-DJeff]

its definitely +1 to 0 or 55:45 to 50:50. With marth having a slight edge.

 

[RaptorTEC]

IC's lose to Yoshi.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I heard it used in every single situation possible at a LAN part last weekend. Blegh.
It won't be long before everyone is sick of it (a week), and then it will die like all recently created memes.

The lifespan of a meme has dropped considerably since their conception; look at 'over 9000' compared to 'errmahgerd'.

Anyway, in regards to Marth/ICs.
This is how the MU happens at top level - how is that Marth's favour, at all? See how Mike had to space every single thing perfectly or he died, while 9B just had to walk forward and shield to apply pressure?

I bet that Marth > ICs only started as a thing because
"derp Marth beats ICs in Melee" (he doesn't really, but that was popular opinion for ages)
"derp Marth can up-b if they **** up the CG" (lol, that ain't DDD)
"derp Marth can out-range them" (Yeaaahhh, Marth's effective range is meh due to his speed and limited options)

NOTE: I do realize that vid is more of an argument for even, I'm just trying to stress that ICs don't lose

 

[infiniteV115]

I wouldn't be surprised if ICs lost to Yoshi.

 

[Z'zgashi]

It's -1 in ICies favor cuz dat grab too good. Has been even before and over history has always fluctuated between +1 Yoshi to -1 Yoshi. Right now though, Id say ICs have a bit of an advantage, cuz overall theyre pretty even, but that grab is just so much stronger if it lands than anything else Yoshi has, so id say it goes to ICs a bit.

 

[Steam]

Just depends on who you ask. I think the ban did a lot of good and didn't alienate nearly as many players as it brought in. The resulting game is arguably better.

MK ban revived colorado's scene. it's why we still have him banned.

 

[| Big D |]

ICs don't lose to Yoshi. I base this off playing Firefly all the time.

Pretty sure ICs don't lose to Ike either, Ike really struggles against desynced blizzards and he gets upaired when he tries to go over.

 

[2-DJeff]

yea yoshi is good vs ic even though I almost beat polt with no yoshi practice

 

[Z'zgashi]

MK ban revived colorado's scene. it's why we still have him banned.

Lol, nobody there even uses him though.

 

[Steam]

Lol, nobody there even uses him though.

except our best player is a MK main... I'd go back to using MK... several other people of our PR would use MK again... Like... 4 of our top 5 would probably be MK if he was made legal again lol.

 

[Sinister Slush]

ICs don't lose to Yoshi. I base this off playing Firefly all the time.

Cause playing one mediocre Yoshi vs a Mediocre ICs means it's not -1.
I'd probably agree if you were to beat Polt or Delta's ***, but you're not.

 

[NickRiddle]

I wanna play more ICs than just the FL ones.
I wanted to MM Vinnie at WHOBO, but he had to be cool and go to Japan.

 

[| Big D |]

Ice blocks do a number on Yoshi on the ground and once in range blizzard shuts down Yoshi really hard.

Blizzard also allows us to land safely against Yoshi. The RPS game of when Yoshi is in the air is skewed by blizzard beating out everything, and ice blocks allow us to not get camped by eggs.

 

[2-DJeff]

Cause playing one mediocre Yoshi vs a Mediocre ICs means it's not -1.
I'd probably agree if you were to beat Polt or Delta's ***, but you're not.

damn slayed that ***** big D hard body! lmao

 

[Luco]

MK ban revived colorado's scene. it's why we still have him banned.

Well, banned only in the sense that individual TO's can choose whether they want him banned or not.

Personally, I feel that, although the ban did wonders to otherwise stale meta game issues against characters that weren't being played nearly enough, etc etc... I disagree with banning so many people from a main that they have used for years. This is a personal thing I guess, seeing as how i'd probably quit brawl competitively if I was told I was not allowed to use Lucas and Ness. :-/

 

[Kuro~]

If you have such a problem with people stating their opinions as if they're facts, why do you insist on doing it yourself?
I mean by reading this post it sounded like you were basically saying "Results don't suggest that the MU is in either character's favour, so saying that it IS in either character's favour is an unsupported argument"
Which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

And you also say things like this

Which is also a reasonable thing to say.

But then


gheb

wat r u doin

gheb


stahp

-dead-

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ice blocks do a number on Yoshi on the ground and once in range blizzard shuts down Yoshi really hard.

Blizzard also allows us to land safely against Yoshi. The RPS game of when Yoshi is in the air is skewed by blizzard beating out everything, and ice blocks allow us to not get camped by eggs.

The first paragraph is completely wrong. Ice Blocks arent anywhere near a problem for Yoshi as his jab/nair/bair/anything with a hitbox will stop them, as well as if need be for some reason he can double jump through them. And Yoshis eggs arch right over blizzard and even a short hop fast fall nair will get over blizzard cuz our air speed is so fast.

I do however agree that blizzard allows you to land safely, however, if you are too aggressive, blizzard isnt going to help at all.

And Steam, man up and just allow him again, youre only hurting your scene and taking away your opportunity to learn the match up that is far and wide the most common and most important to know everywhere else in the entire planet.

 

[Sinister Slush]

damn slayed that ***** big D hard body! lmao

I mean, I hate to be an ******* (not really), but it's true.

And Steam, man up and just allow him again, youre only hurting your scene and taking away your opportunity to learn the match up that is far and wide the most common and most important to know everywhere else in the entire planet.

Really, who in the right mind that's mained Yoshi for 4 years now would be throwing eggs as ice blocks are headed towards them?
Also, CO is already dead. Along with the game, so it doesn't matter.

 

[| Big D |]

The idea with ice blocks is you can use them to stop Yoshi from egg camping and approach using them. It forces Yoshi to use another option other than egg toss which is the only move in Yoshi's arsenal that beats blizzard.

Blizzard is used when in range. It stops any option Yoshi has, if you're close enough and they decide to use egg toss, you can grab them. Blizzard will stop any egg lay shenanigans, bair, or double jump armor. Desynced blizzards wrack up damage fast when combined with upairs.

tl;dr ice blocks to close the gap blizzard to to destroy once in.

Edit: I'd like to travel more, I may not live in the greatest region but we have a few good players. Firefly used to be considered 3rd best Yoshi, I believe he still could be if he had the motivation to stick with Yoshi but I can understand the need to take breaks/switch. Point is this is my most played MU, just because it isn't Polt/Delta shouldn't automatically make my input useless or uninformed.

 

[Delta-cod]

The idea with ice blocks is you can use them to stop Yoshi from egg camping and approach using them. It forces Yoshi to use another option other than egg toss which is the only move in Yoshi's arsenal that beats blizzard.

I mean, we don't actually have any problem resetting from IB pressure though.

And really, blizzard isn't that effective. We really can just jump over it and Nair you for it. Or if you're not being adequately covered by an IB, run under you (Since Blizzard is typically started in the air) and Usmash.

Trading an IB hit for an Egg if you're trying to approach is favorable for us anyways. Eggs do 9 damage a hit, lol.

Blizzard is used when in range. It stops any option Yoshi has, if you're close enough and they decide to use egg toss, you can grab them. Blizzard will stop any egg lay shenanigans, bair, or double jump armor. Desynced blizzards wrack up damage fast when combined with upairs.

ETS away. DJ through and Nair. Reset through you. To the ledge (which is actually good for Yoshi here)!

Blizzard does not stop all our options. Plz.

tl;dr ice blocks to close the gap blizzard to to destroy once in.

No plz.

 

[| Big D |]

I mean, we don't actually have any problem resetting from IB pressure though.

And really, blizzard isn't that effective. We really can just jump over it and Nair you for it. Or if you're not being adequately covered by an IB, run under you (Since Blizzard is typically started in the air) and Usmash.

Trading an IB hit for an Egg if you're trying to approach is favorable for us anyways. Eggs do 9 damage a hit, lol.

Ideally an Ice climbers player would approach with desynced Ice blocks and desynced blizzards. Ice blocks are not meant as a source of damage but rather a form of pressure so you cannot throw eggs at us. Even then walking and shielding is another effective mthod of closing the gap/ A desynced blizzard near Yoshi is extremely safe. We can cover the jump above us with up airs or if you chose to run at us we can react with another blizzard.

ETS away. DJ through and Nair. Reset through you. To the ledge (which is actually good for Yoshi here)!

Blizzard does not stop all our options. Plz.

Blizzard can be double jump armored but it will beat out Yoshi everytime he puts out a hitbox and by the time Yoshi is above ICs we can safely up air and tack on damage.
Blizzard is extremely good vs Yoshi.

Btw I appreciate you giving me an actual response.

 

[Delta-cod]

Ideally an Ice climbers player would approach with desynced Ice blocks and desynced blizzards. Ice blocks are not meant as a source of damage but rather a form of pressure so you cannot throw eggs at us. Even then walking and shielding is another effective mthod of closing the gap/ A desynced blizzard near Yoshi is extremely safe. We can cover the jump above us with up airs or if you chose to run at us we can react with another blizzard.

Approaching with desynced blizzards takes too long, since your actual horizontal movement is way too slow. Trying to actively do desyncs while approaching us will result in getting hit by an egg, which means you'll be losing your desync and taking damage. You also risk separation at higher percents.

Walking and shielding is much more effective for approaching, at least until you get close enough that a blizzard would need to be read for us to effectively punish it. However, walking at us until you get this close makes you liable to getting Bair rushed, which ICs can't punish (at least, not with a grab) if we full rush down with a cross up. So this makes it just a matter of reading at "neutral."

If it comes down to it, we can always retreat to the ledge. ICs don't trap us there with anything serious, although desynced IBs can be annoying. ECE can ruin desyncs and split up the ICs still, giving us opportunities to get onstage safely while you're preoccupied.

Basically, Yoshi has plenty of options as long as he doesn't try to directly go through Blizzard (and even then it cannnnnnnnnnn be done. Sometimes).

Blizzard can be double jump armored but it will beat out Yoshi everytime he puts out a hitbox and by the time Yoshi is above ICs we can safely up air and tack on damage.
Blizzard is extremely good vs Yoshi.

See above.

Btw I appreciate you giving me an actual response.

You haven't reaaaaaaaally said anything outrageous, so you don't deserve to be shot down.

 

[DeLux]

ICs lose to ZSS (I play the MU from both sides. One side is really easy. The other is really hard.)
Beats Yoshi (though MU is annoying if Yoshi gets momentum)
Even with Marth (though on paper would probably be Marth's adv, thank god Marth in theory doesn't happen or I'd get 3 stocked every time like against Mike )

As far as my set with Dakpo goes, I ran into the Pivot Grab > Bthrow > Flip Jump Gimmick A LOT (bad aggressive play calling on my part). I also don't practice CGing ZSS since she doesn't spawn on random. Normally that's something I'd prepare pre tournament, but I was supposed to not enter and only TO. Not knocking his win because he executed and came prepared to play. Next time I'll be ready. I don't know if I'd win, but I can bet it'll be more competitive because I can not accept getting slaughtered unless it's Toon Link

 

[Steam]

Colorado isn't dead o_O.

and I enjoy MK being banned. Honestly if he was unbanned I'd probably stop entering brawl tournies for the most part. I'd much rather play PM or melee than deal with MK all the time, not fun to me.

It's also not my decision to keep him banned. so ya.

 

[Delta-cod]

Delux plz.

Actually, you said you had some sort of technique to making the ICs really hard for Yoshi or something. I still haven't found out what it is. =P

 

[DeLux]

I have techniques for everything >_>

Good thing I haven't learned how to CG yet

ZSS has all the things that ICs hates though LOL

She needs multiple jumps and a separating Dair and an jump cancelling invincible option out of shield then you'd be right

 

[Z'zgashi]

Really, who in the right mind that's mained Yoshi for 4 years now would be throwing eggs as ice blocks are headed towards them?
Also, CO is already dead. Along with the game, so it doesn't matter.

First off, reread what I said, I never said throw eggs against Ice blocks, I said throw eggs against blizzard, and second, eggs do more damage and have more travel speed, so in a lot of situations throwing eggs while they use ice blocks will result in either them taking damage then you shielding the ice, or a trade, both of which are beneficial for yoshi, and even if they are forced to shield an egg, this puts them in a position where them using ice blocks again means they will get hit and could even still connect on nana due to the delay when popo shields.

Other than that, I completely agree with everything Delta has said so far, and I agree with Delux that ICs beat Yoshi, although I do think its only a slight advantage. Like I said before, I feel both sides have the options to pressure each other, poke, etc. Yoshi can separate ICs easier than most, Yoshi has the mobility to keep away, etc, just the power of the grab puts it in ICs favor due to the fact that its just so strong and is a much harder punish than anything yoshi can do to them.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm not arguing towards you. I'm mostly saying something similar to what you said while BigD thinks using Iceblocks keeps us from even wanting to use Egg toss in the first place.

 

[| Big D |]

You use blizzard while in close, obviously you don't want to blizzard when Yoshi is far away. Eggs go through blizzard, Yoshi isn't going to egg you when you're in dash length away unless he wants to get grabbed. We use blizzard at a range where you can't egg toss.

Ice blocks are a way of applying enough pressure so they don't egg toss as egg toss has considerable start up. Desyncing them increases the frequency enough so that Yoshi can't egg toss between each one of them and has to commit to another option.

 

[DeLux]

Inb4deltacodcampsusalltodeath

 

[Sinister Slush]

At this point in the game, Delux. All of the current active Yoshi mains will very likely camp just as hard as they did years ago.

 

[Delta-cod]

Blizzarding at a range when you're a dash length away (I'm assuming you mean the IC's range) still puts you too close to Yoshi. By that point, Yoshi should have acted, either choosing to rush through you, or escape the situation. You'll have to do something earlier.

Desynced IBs are a pain. But as long as you're using them, you're not approaching (at least, I'm assuming as far as camping with them goes). If you do approach with them, throwing an egg at you as you approach with them is perfectly viable. If you're not approaching, jabbing/tilting them away isn't an issue.

 

[Scatz]

You know that if you are close to us while using blizzard, we can just jump away while using egg toss.....???

Seriously, unless you are far below us or in CQC range where you can grab us, we can still throw an egg even if we're giving up stage control to stay safe.