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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Rubberbandman

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I don't want to criticize the knowledge of others who I haven't seen post other things, unlike bubba (who in the previous tier list thread, v6 now closed) was just completely wrong about various things and seemed ignorant to me.

I like how you just lurk threads, never make relevant to thread posts and just wait for someone to post something you might not agree with and then follow up with your own criticism. You actually for the majority just comment on other comments, too scared to make your owns posts, or just worried that you're wrong about everything?

You're right, I come into this thread come read the last few pages and unlike you don't waste my life away scrolling through pages and pages looking for EVERY comment that talks about ICs and then follow by criticising everyone, also please link me to the "LOT of people" who claim ICs are 1. No really, I'm curious to see how many in this thread actually did say IC 1, because I don't have the time to wade through pages right now, and you seem to have no life so you can do it for me right?
Insulting people isn't the best way of getting stuff done, guys. Try to act mature when you want someone to prove things with facts okay?

But I think people place Icies and Olimar as the number 2 from the fact that over the last couple months they've had the most effect and biggest splash on the metagame; the Tier List is a reflection of who is making progress as a character, not just who is playing this character or how many top players of a character there are. If that were the case, Snake and Falco would not have fallen as low.
 

Lukingordex

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Yoshi and jiggly is going up!

Yeah I can use Lucas on Low tiers tournaments!!!
 

Sunnysunny

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So...Question BBR.
Whats your definition of a tierlist? What do you use it to determine? Is it how good a character is in theory or how good the player community of said character is?

It looks like your basing it on the first one seeing as how some character have much better results then others yet are still very low in comparison too them like Snake. :V
 

Lukingordex

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I think the terms to define a tier list is the caracters MUs.
Correct me if I an wrong.
 

MEOW1337KITTEH

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Afaik, a tier list is only a statement of the current metagame. It is the combination of matchups, results, and general ability for success.
 

ぱみゅ

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imo, a Tier list is a character success expectative. As in, how much is a able a character to win a tournament.
Matchups are the key, and results a way to prove the actual success. Votes are because some people always want to have the last word.
 

C.J.

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So...Question BBR.
Whats your definition of a tierlist? What do you use it to determine? Is it how good a character is in theory or how good the player community of said character is?

It looks like your basing it on the first one seeing as how some character have much better results then others yet are still very low in comparison too them like Snake. :V
A tierlist is, imo, a list of characters in the order of how big of a threat they are in the current metagame. It takes into account a character's MUs, how well the character can preform in the current metagame, it looks at how popular a character is (little impact but still relevant), and how top players and top theorycrafts view the metagame to be influenced by any given character.

I think the terms to define a tier list is the caracters MUs.
Correct me if I an wrong.
You should probably read the OP and DL the excel file since what you said is pretty contradictory to what we did.
 

bubbaking

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4 months of MK banned tournies, when 40% of all tournies still have MK legal, isn't nearly enough data to make an accurate tierlist. Since 5 months of MK being legal + a 4 month period where he was legal 40% of the time is a significantly larger amount of data, they went with that. I dunno wtf is so hard to understand about that.
Well, I don't know about "significantly larger." After MK was banned, MK banned tourneys racked up almost $14,000. MK legal tourneys only accumulated to about $7,000. It's kind of hard to ignore such a huge chunk of data.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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I like how you just lurk threads, never make relevant to thread posts and just wait for someone to post something you might not agree with and then follow up with your own criticism.
Guilty as charged. I sense a little butt hurt.
 

Strong Badam

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Well, I don't know about "significantly larger." After MK was banned, MK banned tourneys racked up almost $14,000. MK legal tourneys only accumulated to about $7,000. It's kind of hard to ignore such a huge chunk of data.
You're still only looking at the past 4 months. There were 5 other months in the period since the last tier list where MK was legal in almost every event, and all of that money was MK Legal. So all of that + 7K > 14K , ez.
 

Sunnysunny

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A tierlist is, imo, a list of characters in the order of how big of a threat they are in the current metagame. It takes into account a character's MUs, how well the character can preform in the current metagame, it looks at how popular a character is (little impact but still relevant), and how top players and top theorycrafts view the metagame to be influenced by any given character..

Metagame threat~? I see~ I like the meaning of the tier list but I think the whole theorycraft and voting thing skews the results of it. I'm just one of those guys that think results should do the talking ya know? Actions speak louder then words and what not. In theory, theres plenty of ways to make fighting snake alot easier, yet the results show he's making the 2nd most money out of any character.

I think theorycraft should be cut out completely. MU's kinda speak for theorycraft anyways. There basically theorycraft backed up with experience, frame data, and results.
 

Lukingordex

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It is curious how Luigi is dropping.

My friend is hoping for him getting low to use him in low tier tournaments...
 
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Well, I don't know about "significantly larger." After MK was banned, MK banned tourneys racked up almost $14,000. MK legal tourneys only accumulated to about $7,000. It's kind of hard to ignore such a huge chunk of data.
Welp. Ignored again.

*sigh*
 

C.J.

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Metagame threat~? I see~ I like the meaning of the tier list but I think the whole theorycraft and voting thing skews the results of it. I'm just one of those guys that think results should do the talking ya know? Actions speak louder then words and what not. In theory, theres plenty of ways to make fighting snake alot easier, yet the results show he's making the 2nd most money out of any character.

I think theorycraft should be cut out completely. MU's kinda speak for theorycraft anyways. There basically theorycraft backed up with experience, frame data, and results.
Well, according to only results, Kirby is the worst character in the game. However, he still is more of a threat in the metagame than Ganon, Falcon, Jiggly, etc. So, naturally results can't be everything (keeping in mind our only method of tracking results is via money won. So if DKs place one spot outside of the money, non-stop, then he's much bigger threat than our results would lead us to believe).

MUs have a similar problem, although not as close to pronounced- at least assuming that they theorycraft behind them is perfect (which it rarely is- unless I'm the one making it ofc :awesome:). Since the theorycraft behind MUs isn't perfect, there is going to be a flaw for that too. To use DK as an example again, DK would be under characters like Luigi. Very few people would actually agree with that statement (at least in regards to how much of a threat a character is).
Also, while weighted MU charts help alleviate the next problem, they don't fix it. If the most common character was Snake, and a character beat Snake and the next most common character badly, but then proceeded to lose to a lot of characters in a row, his MUs would be trash while still being a relevant threat.

Now, if the tier list was based strictly on how good a character is, then all MUs would make sense.

So combine the two. That seems like a solution, right? Well it might, and would be most of the time. But then you might come across an instance where the two problems overlap making it impossible for objective data to be given to judge how big of a threat a given character is in the metagame at that point in time. This is where the votes come into play as a correcting factor for things that we can objectively observe (character X placing one spot out of the money every week, for months on end for example) but we don't have the capacity to calculate at the moment due, unfortunately, to a lack of data. Most of the votes typically fall into place with what the data shows and usually would have very little, if any, real impact or difference from what the data would show. However, there are bound to be the few and rare instances where the data we have just isn't giving an accurate description of the metagame at that point in time.


Note that this is all in my opinion and how I view it. It may or may not be representative of the BR as a whole. Just what makes the most sense to me.

It is curious how Luigi is dropping.

My friend is hoping for him getting low to use him in low tier tournaments...
Luigi's write-up is coming, but, he can't approach, can't kill (he has great kill moves, just not kill potential- at least not vs good characters), can't really keep people out, etc.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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You're still only looking at the past 4 months. There were 5 other months in the period since the last tier list where MK was legal in almost every event, and all of that money was MK Legal. So all of that + 7K > 14K , ez.
Not all of it, but the majority of it.
 

MEOW1337KITTEH

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Tier list analogy:
Magnezone used to be seen as useless, until people realized that he is a hard counter to Skarmory and that he can set up on him.

Things can be seen as threats because they take out top threats, despite losing to many others (like Magnezone)

:phone:
 

Lukingordex

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Luigi's write-up is coming, but, he can't approach, can't kill (he has great kill moves, just not kill potential- at least not vs good characters), can't really keep people out, etc.
I agree.
But I really hope that he not get down anymore,because if he becomes a low tier,Lucas will probably go up and become a mid,and I will not be able to use him in low tier tournaments...
:c
 

Neon!

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thats not really impressing anyone xD
Bum was 2008,... Dr.G was never a top player.. idk about ook.
I know Dr. G beat shadows mk a while ago who Will lost to. Dr. G placed higher than Will in a couple of tourneys when they both attended. Outside of Mikehaze I'm not sure of Ook's notable wins.
 

Luxord

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Guilty as charged. I sense a little butt hurt.
but what I read was

So full of :salt: because my trolling failed, so I'll try to get Luxord mad by calling him butt hurt.
I sense some more poor trolling, Ryker have you ever actually gotten anyone angry? And you try SO hard for it too. It seems like your comments are more laughable than annoying tbh, fail harder please?

Oh and if you were wondering why I even "targeted" bubbaking, you can see by his "conversation" with Twinkie on this/last page that he clearly ignores facts and he ignores people who are WAY more informed than he is.
 

Grim Tuesday

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I sense some more poor trolling, Ryker have you ever actually gotten anyone angry? And you try SO hard for it too. It seems like your comments are more laughable than annoying tbh, fail harder please?
but what I read was



I do indeed detect some more mild heckling, Ryker good sir have you ever actually succeeded in your attempts to anger a person? And you try SO profusely for it as well. It appears that your remarks are more laughable than irritating to be quite honest, fail to a greater extent, please?
 

Bazooka Joe

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Does Luigi really have to be that low, I mean...Bad recovery yeah, but THAT low.


I think people shouldn't do pocket metaknights. That is probably what started this WHOLE thing.
I don't think he really has that bad of a recovery with green missile and tornado of souls.
 

TKD

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given the meager ammount of great players, i doubt there will ever be a truly accurate tier list. plus, give a tourney enough attendance, and the backroom will treat the results like gospel.
on another, but related topic, i'm pretty sure fox's true spot should/will be 2 tiers higher and sheik's 1 tier higher.
and i'm a high placing mk, not just some moron btw :p
 

#HBC | Ryker

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have you ever actually gotten anyone angry?
I don't want to criticize the knowledge of others who I haven't seen post other things, unlike bubba (who in the previous tier list thread, v6 now closed) was just completely wrong about various things and seemed ignorant to me.

I like how you just lurk threads, never make relevant to thread posts and just wait for someone to post something you might not agree with and then follow up with your own criticism. You actually for the majority just comment on other comments, too scared to make your owns posts, or just worried that you're wrong about everything?

You're right, I come into this thread come read the last few pages and unlike you don't waste my life away scrolling through pages and pages looking for EVERY comment that talks about ICs and then follow by criticising everyone, also please link me to the "LOT of people" who claim ICs are 1. No really, I'm curious to see how many in this thread actually did say IC 1, because I don't have the time to wade through pages right now, and you seem to have no life so you can do it for me right?
Possibly, but I dunno.
 

Luxord

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given the meager ammount of great players, i doubt there will ever be a truly accurate tier list. plus, give a tourney enough attendance, and the backroom will treat the results like gospel.
on another, but related topic, i'm pretty sure fox's true spot should/will be 2 tiers higher and sheik's 1 tier higher.
and i'm a high placing mk, not just some moron btw :p
meh I feel as though fox is never going to go more than one higher than right now and I love how you justify your credentials. First thought at your name "fox"

separate note, aren't you still #1 ranked on the Top 5 overall PR (for NA, CAN, and MEX??)

@Ryker
you're right, my response was completely full of anger I'm sure, if you could be so kind identify where I wrote anything along the lines of anger? First part = me stating opinion, second = you being wrong which you always are, third = me stating I just go into the thread
inb4 confused why you think you succeed at anything
 
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I really don't understand sheilda's jump.

No offense to anyone. but sheik. Sheilda mains don't so anything. They don't place well, they don't take names. Ed said I'd been placing well recently... but that's really not the case. I think my highest placing recently was like 5th out of 27?

I looked at the chart that was posted in response to fuujin's inquiry, but like idk where the -47 for MU's like what are you using as the basis for that? Maybe I missed the post the explained how you all decided on it and what you used as reference for MUs. Also the BBR vote, was that just the various BBR member 's opinions on the character or was it based off of the rest of the data on that chart? And how does sheilda only having an additional +1 on pikachu/D3 end up being worth 23 MU points?

I agree with San though, I think sheik is an underrated character, and sheik mains haven't done anything to prove it yet.

also in the BBR's opinion... what's the difference between sheik and sheilda?

Sorry if some of these things got mentioned/answered already but i skimmed through a lot of posts and only really payed attention to the ones that involved Sheik.
 

#HBC | Ryker

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I really don't understand sheilda's jump.

No offense to anyone. but sheik. Sheilda mains don't so anything. They don't place well, they don't take names. Ed said I'd been placing well recently... but that's really not the case. I think my highest placing recently was like 5th out of 27?
As I understand it, it's a lot to do with data and how it works in regards to the entire Sheik, Zelda, Sheilda concept. Seeing as this seems to be the case, some change concerning how the characters are addressed should be implied, I hope.
 

Grim Tuesday

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A tier list should be used to convey the information that the player's want.

In other words, we don't need a Sheilda placing any more than we need a Sopo placing unless people actually want to know how good Sheilda is.

So... Does anyone care?
 

#HBC | Ryker

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If it made a significant difference, then sure. I really doubt that's the case. I'd be much more satisfied with an accurate Sheik placing.
 

Yikarur

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perhaps the top tier is just to big.
A lot of games tend to have a very small Top Tier because they are the one's who are expected to win tourneys
imo Top Tier should be Top5 only like (personal version of Top Tier)

Top:
S: :metaknight:
A: :popo: :olimar: :snake: :diddy:

High:
:falco: :marth: :pikachu: :wario: [...] :toonlink:

Mid Tier:
:wolf: [...] :sheik:

Low Tier:
:yoshi: [...] :falcon:

Bottom Tier:
:jigglypuff: [...] :ganondorf:
 

C.J.

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given the meager ammount of great players, i doubt there will ever be a truly accurate tier list. plus, give a tourney enough attendance, and the backroom will treat the results like gospel.
on another, but related topic, i'm pretty sure fox's true spot should/will be 2 tiers higher and sheik's 1 tier higher.
and i'm a high placing mk, not just some moron btw :p
Apex was weighed in a similar manner to any other tourny. The only thing that Apex's data directly affected was changing Olimar from 3 to two.

why diddy is third, i will never know LOL. He's kinda overrated imo
What's your top ten then?

I really don't understand sheilda's jump.

No offense to anyone. but sheik. Sheilda mains don't so anything. They don't place well, they don't take names. Ed said I'd been placing well recently... but that's really not the case. I think my highest placing recently was like 5th out of 27?

I looked at the chart that was posted in response to fuujin's inquiry, but like idk where the -47 for MU's like what are you using as the basis for that? Maybe I missed the post the explained how you all decided on it and what you used as reference for MUs. Also the BBR vote, was that just the various BBR member 's opinions on the character or was it based off of the rest of the data on that chart? And how does sheilda only having an additional +1 on pikachu/D3 end up being worth 23 MU points?

I agree with San though, I think sheik is an underrated character, and sheik mains haven't done anything to prove it yet.

also in the BBR's opinion... what's the difference between sheik and sheilda?

Sorry if some of these things got mentioned/answered already but i skimmed through a lot of posts and only really payed attention to the ones that involved Sheik.
Sheilda's jump is because of the rarity of solo Sheik placing in the money at tournaments. It appears that almost every time there was a Sheik in a results thread, it was accompanied by a Zelda creating a disparity in the results that Sheilda got compared to Sheik.

The MUs were gotten by looking at the 6th iteration of the tier list and, starting with top tier, giving each tier a numerical value from one to nine. The highest tier, S tier, was 9, A tier was 8, all the way down to the last tier which was 1. You then take a character's MU vs a character and multiply it by the number that corresponds to the tier that it's in (a -3 MU vs MK, for example, is worth -27 overall while a +4 MU vs Ganon is worth +4 overall.

According to the vast majority of the BBR members, the difference between Sheik and Sheilda is just one spot in the tier list. The disparity came when results were added in. If you meant what qualifies as each one, the "technical" definition is using both characters when they're needed in the most optimal way possible. However, that's not exactly a good definition imo since if you got solo sheik than that could still be the optimal use of both characters. I believe it counts more along the lines of, if a player routinely uses both characters in the majority of the matches they play while transforming during the match. If a player goes solo Sheik in one match-up and solo Zelda in another, I'd attribute the success to the two individual characters and not the combined Sheilda.

A tier list should be used to convey the information that the player's want.

In other words, we don't need a Sheilda placing any more than we need a Sopo placing unless people actually want to know how good Sheilda is.

So... Does anyone care?
I believe Marc posted earlier that in the next iteration we'd discuss removing Sheilda all together.

perhaps the top tier is just to big.
A lot of games tend to have a very small Top Tier because they are the one's who are expected to win tourneys
imo Top Tier should be Top5 only like (personal version of Top Tier)
Certainly a viable opinion of how the tiers should be made.
 

Loz8ichimaru

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Lucas could be bottom of mid tier, Luigi and Yoshi will never be low tier!

Borderline is a terrible tier name, just leave it as a part of high or mid tier... of which I can only assume it's technically the bottom of high tier - so awesome, Pit is high tier (like he should be).

I'd put Shielda one place above Sheik, the difference is really minor. I'd put DK above sonic and shielda, Sonic above Shielda and Ike above Shielda (and maybe Sonic, very close). I might generally underrate Sheik, but then I've never seen a Sheik do well at all and have at least seen some of DK and Ikes potential.

MK needs god tier back lol, why do you think he was banned??!?

Personal Top tier:
Mk
ICs, Olmar, Snake, Diddy
Falco, Marth, Wario, Pikachu

- Diddy is overrated
- Pikachu is good but definitely overrated
- Wario is a good character, why people underestimate him I won't understand... Only does particularly badly against MK, Marth and DDD imo.

Hard to say who's worst in the game, but Ganon definitely could be above Jigglypuff/Link/Zelda.
 

NickRiddle

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The one thing I don't like about having used the mu chart, is Pit is too high due to his unrealistic mus.

:phone:
 

Uncle

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The one thing I don't like about having used the mu chart, is Pit is too high due to his unrealistic mus.

:phone:
That's something I don't like, as well. People have already offered various complaints (some bad, but some valid) about some of the MU scores in v2.0, and even the creators themselves admitted that there were inequalities in representation or argumentation when it came to the panel discussions.

Despite that, though, this tier list looks good for the most part. I just think that it would have been better if it was based off of a new, improved, and more fair MU chart v3.0.
 
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