Official BBR Tier List v7

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

If you meant what qualifies as each one, the "technical" definition is using both characters when they're needed in the most optimal way possible. However, that's not exactly a good definition imo since if you got solo sheik than that could still be the optimal use of both characters. I believe it counts more along the lines of, if a player routinely uses both characters in the majority of the matches they play while transforming during the match. If a player goes solo Sheik in one match-up and solo Zelda in another, I'd attribute the success to the two individual characters and not the combined Sheilda.

I think this is the problem with sheilda. Both options are reasonable, and theres no real "THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN SHEIK AND SHEILDA" line anywhere so it gets left up t the T.O. which creates inconsistencies in the various results thread.

I believe Marc posted earlier that in the next iteration we'd discuss removing Sheilda all together.

I think this is a good idea... Sheilda pretty much is just Sheik. I think if one of the two characters wasn't so significantly worse than the other and had a use besides landing an upsmash at 120, then sheilda would have her own place as a character but as it stands sheilda is just sheik... with zelda's upsmash.


Thanks for answering my questions

 

[stingers]

I have to agree with TKD on the point that fox def. needs to be moved up, into high tier at least. Not top just yet, but hes a step above the rest of the chars in his tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox will never be high tier. He hasn't proven himself to be at that level. Top of mid or "borderline" at the most. His matchups shut him down way too hard to bump him like you're suggesting.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox will never be high tier. He hasn't proven himself to be at that level.

Incorrect blanket statements ftw

 

[Deleted member]

Incorrect blanket statements ftw

Oh hi there, Gheb. Never thought you'd chime in.

 

[stingers]

what matchups are you speaking of auspher?

 

[Eddie G]

If anything I'd see Wolf making that jump before Fox, but they seem pretty much neck-and-neck otherwise.

 

[Linkshot]

I think this is the problem with sheilda. Both options are reasonable, and theres no real "THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN SHEIK AND SHEILDA" line anywhere so it gets left up t the T.O. which creates inconsistencies in the various results thread.



I think this is a good idea... Sheilda pretty much is just Sheik. I think if one of the two characters wasn't so significantly worse than the other and had a use besides landing an upsmash at 120, then sheilda would have her own place as a character but as it stands sheilda is just sheik... with zelda's upsmash.


Thanks for answering my questions

IMO should be other way around, like PT is. Zelda/Sheik are one character and solo one of them is the same as saying "I'm going to use Diddy without bananas." You're still Diddy/Sheilda, even if you're not using DownB.

 

[NickRiddle]

IMO should be other way around, like PT is. Zelda/Sheik are one character and solo one of them is the same as saying "I'm going to use Diddy without bananas." You're still Diddy/Sheilda, even if you're not using DownB.

PT is forced to switch. Zelda/Sheik are not.

 

[Ishiey]

Zelda/Sheik are one character and solo one of them is the same as saying "I'm going to use Diddy without bananas." You're still Diddy/Sheilda, even if you're not using DownB.

THIS TIMES A ****ING MILLION

Using solo Sheik or solo Zelda is just limiting your options. Not that you have to use those options, but they are readily available. It's exactly as you said, there's no spot for Diddy without bananas, so there shouldn't be a spot for Sheik or Zelda without their ability to transform.

 

[Player-1]

If anything fox needs to moved down a couple of tiers....or 5

 

[xDD-Master]

THIS TIMES A ****ING MILLION

Using solo Sheik or solo Zelda is just limiting your options. Not that you have to use those options, but they are readily available. It's exactly as you said, there's no spot for Diddy without bananas, so there shouldn't be a spot for Sheik or Zelda without their ability to transform.

But then, we also need to include Samus with the option to transform, which makes her just as good as ZSS then.

I could agree otherwise, but I think removing Sheilda and keeping the individual characters probably is the best option to not get into some kind of inconsistency.

 

[stingers]

the whole idea of shielda just seems superfluous. you rank shiek, you rank zelda, and you have a good understanding of where each lies. trying to rank them both is 1) useless (you never "play" as shielda, only one or the other) and 2) impossible (somewhere along the line, you have to make assumptions as to how they'll be used. even if you just say "optimally", that's still immeasurable and ultimately just as superfluous)

 

[Loz8ichimaru]

I have a problem with this.

Because?

I have to agree with TKD on the point that fox def. needs to be moved up, into high tier at least. Not top just yet, but hes a step above the rest of the chars in his tier.

I would argue that borderline is high tier: Logic: Due to a) every character there being clearly better than the characters in mid-tier and b) top tier has 3 groups, mid tier has 2, low tier has 2... high tier has 1 with 4 characters... Borderline should be called 'borderline high' or simply be included in 'high' --> 9 characters in top, 9 characters in high, 11 characters in mid and 9 characters in low)

With what I just said Fox is already high tier, as he should be, could arguably be around where DDD is though.

Borderline will have to count as either high or mid at some stage, determining mid tier events and such, so do you really think high tier will have 4 characters and therefore mid tier has 20? I doubt it was intended that way. Borderline is simply the worst of high tier imo.

 

[Lukingordex]

Lucas could be bottom of mid tier, Luigi and Yoshi will never be low tier!

Lucas is already good becoming top of low tiers.
Who I will use at low tiers tournaments if he gets up?

 

[Ishiey]

But then, we also need to include Samus with the option to transform, which makes her just as good as ZSS then.

I could agree otherwise, but I think removing Sheilda and keeping the individual characters probably is the best option to not get into some kind of inconsistency.

No, because Smash Balls are banned so you don't have the option of switching back and forth between the two. It is not a flexible option, whereas transforming between Sheik and Zelda is.

@ all the "borderline" talk, it's basically there because people have a really tough time agreeing with where those characters should be placed (high vs mid). The way the gaps played out, they could've all be counted as high, but most generally see a clear gap of viability between the majority of this tier and the characters in high or mid.

@ Lucas leaving low, he was fairly close to Mario and they were both a noticeable cut above the rest of the low tiers. However, check out the excel file and you'll see that they're both far removed from Luigi. Seriously, people need to check out the file :/

 

[xDD-Master]

But switching to ZSS is one of Samus options, so Samus should be as good as ZSS as switching ALWAYS is possible, and Samus may be better in some match ups or idk, but she cant be worse.

See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4btCQQcRhw

quiKsilver used samus as a "mindgame pick" on game three.

 

[TreK]

@ Lucas leaving low, he was fairly close to Mario and they were both a noticeable cut above the rest of the low tiers. However, check out the excel file and you'll see that they're both far removed from Luigi. Seriously, people need to check out the file :/

Of course they're far away from Luigi, because Luigi was placed damn too low on that tier list. Just check the matchup chart. If you add the matchup ratios from MK to the end of the high tier (aka the matchups that matter), for Luigi it's -14, and for PT it's -20. Not even talking about DK.

Luigi is really unpopular and the method used to calculate the tier list was quite unfair on him.

 

[Napos]

I don't think he really has that bad of a recovery with green missile and tornado of souls.

I don't know. I mean, the missile is pretty much readable unless its a misfire, and even then you can space it out and punish. With Tornado he pretty much goes only up and down. Its even worse when your at high percents.

 

[C.J.]

Of course they're far away from Luigi, because Luigi was placed damn too low on that tier list. Just check the matchup chart. If you add the matchup ratios from MK to the end of the high tier (aka the matchups that matter), for Luigi it's -14, and for PT it's -20. Not even talking about DK.

Luigi is really unpopular and the method used to calculate the tier list was quite unfair on him.

I'm not even going to double check your math because you're doing the math wrong. You need to weigh the MUs. Go look at tier list 6.0. In fact, here's a link:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306431

Alright, starting with S tier, put a number next to each letter starting with 9 and going down to 1. So all the characters in S tier (MK) are worth 9x, A tier characters are worth 8x, and so on.

So, now look at MK. The MU is -3. Because S tier characters are worth 9x, Luigi's MU vs MK is not worth -3, but is worth -27.

So, Luigi's actual weighted MUs that were used to create this tier list (only looking at MK, Wario, IC, Oli, Snake, Diddy, Marth, Pika, and Falco) is actually -108.

PT through the same spot is -145

DK through the same spot is -133

However, once you go through the end of the characters that actually matter (no just your opinion since you see fairly consistent results through Fox) his MUs and DKs are far more similar and really it'd be more appropriate to say that DK should be around where Luigi is rather than Luigi moving up.

However, that only counted for 35% of the vote. Results have PT as being 6th highest in the game which definitely helped in keeping him out of low tier. At the same time, Luigi's results are just pitiful.

So, now you say it's unfair to Luigi Alright I'll bite, how? Something to do with results weighing very slightly being inaccurate because Luigi is unpopular? That doesn't make sense at all. In order for a character to be a threat in the metagame, they have to... actually be in the metagame. If *next to* nobody plays Luigi, he can't possibly be a threat. Therefore, he drops.

Also, @ Ishiey- Wouldn't everything be so much easier if the file automatically downloaded every time you came to post here and refused to close until you read it?

 

[Napos]

I'm not even going to double check your math because you're doing the math wrong. You need to weigh the MUs. Go look at tier list 6.0. In fact, here's a link:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306431

Alright, starting with S tier, put a number next to each letter starting with 9 and going down to 1. So all the characters in S tier (MK) are worth 9x, A tier characters are worth 8x, and so on.

So, now look at MK. The MU is -3. Because S tier characters are worth 9x, Luigi's MU vs MK is not worth -3, but is worth -27.

So, Luigi's actual weighted MUs that were used to create this tier list (only looking at MK, Wario, IC, Oli, Snake, Diddy, Marth, Pika, and Falco) is actually -108.

PT through the same spot is -145

DK through the same spot is -133

However, once you go through the end of the characters that actually matter (no just your opinion since you see fairly consistent results through Fox) his MUs and DKs are far more similar and really it'd be more appropriate to say that DK should be around where Luigi is rather than Luigi moving up.

However, that only counted for 35% of the vote. Results have PT as being 6th highest in the game which definitely helped in keeping him out of low tier. At the same time, Luigi's results are just pitiful.

So, now you say it's unfair to Luigi Alright I'll bite, how? Something to do with results weighing very slightly being inaccurate because Luigi is unpopular? That doesn't make sense at all. In order for a character to be a threat in the metagame, they have to... actually be in the metagame. If *next to* nobody plays Luigi, he can't possibly be a threat. Therefore, he drops.

Also, @ Ishiey- Wouldn't everything be so much easier if the file automatically downloaded every time you came to post here and refused to close until you read it?

That shut me up. We want him higher, main him, win with him.

 

[DeadLastClown]

Ness should really be higher up. Too bad more people don't play him.

 

[C.J.]

That shut me up. We want him higher, main him, win with him.

More than that, results only play a small role, although a noticeable one. Finding new ways to approach MUs (haha, puns...) to improve his overall weighted MU scores would be very helpful as well.

 

[Luigi player]

But switching to ZSS is one of Samus options, so Samus should be as good as ZSS as switching ALWAYS is possible, and Samus may be better in some match ups or idk, but she cant be worse.

See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4btCQQcRhw

quiKsilver used samus as a "mindgame pick" on game three.

I dont think Samus is better than ZSS in any MU... that makes it pretty redundant to list Samus at the same place as ZSS. Just judge Samus on her own since you can play her without switching to ZSS.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I actually really like this list. My own personal opinion is literally only off by 1 or 2 spots for characters I dont agree with in placement, which is pretty awesome.

 

[Luxord]

But then, we also need to include Samus with the option to transform, which makes her just as good as ZSS then.

I could agree otherwise, but I think removing Sheilda and keeping the individual characters probably is the best option to not get into some kind of inconsistency.

^this times a ******* million
perfect post, beat me to it

No, because Smash Balls are banned so you don't have the option of switching back and forth between the two. It is not a flexible option, whereas transforming between Sheik and Zelda is.

just because it's flexible for the whole match it's not an option to be judged? Let's say I'm a samus main who has a bracket match against fox, and for all intents and purposes it's matchup I feel I exceed in. Then when the fox wins first, I win second, and it's his CP I decide I'm not confident enough to go samus/full samus in game 3 because of the stage I'm being taken to. Thus I can exploit the usage of my body parts AND matchup inexperience in order to win JUST like Sheilda players do.

The reasons to switch: trolling because who you're against isn't that good, landing a kill move, or straight matchups (for example zelda v fox or sheik v fox, lets be real)

I don't know. I mean, the missile is pretty much readable unless its a misfire, and even then you can space it out and punish. With Tornado he pretty much goes only up and down. Its even worse when your at high percents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itIOklgilxs
check it out, made by the Luigi boards and there is a part of the video specifically on recovery and green missile is defininitely not readable if used properly

Check out some of Boss' matches against top level players or even some of Zhao_Guang's stuff to see how/when they use missile.

 

[Spelt]

Top
S: (±0)
A: (+6)

April fools was a month ago, guys.


























Seriously.

Olimar is not second.
What the **** are you doing, BBR?

If that word wasn't censor it would be bolded, underlined, italicized, size seven, and red. Just use your imagination, I guess. The same kind of absurd imagination that must have factored into this decision.

Were drugs/alcohol related in this decision?
If you say no you are lying.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Guys, the difference between Sheilda and ZSS/Samus and PT is that with Sheilda, you can freely choose to switch whenever, and are never forced into another 'form'. With ZSS/Samus, it's a one way trip, and with PT, it's forced on death as well as fatigue making staying the same a hindrance.

 

[Luigisama]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=14178301#post14178301

Boss gets 1st at a tourney using Luigi and Mr.ConCon beat Dehf. Luigi drops 4 spots.. jk

For the Luigi mains or secondaries that are complaining about Luigi's placing. The reason why luigi pretty much dropped is because the only two luigi's that are actually a threat (Biglou and Boss) Don't enter with Luigi as much as they use to. As of recently the only few upcoming Luigi's that have been placing are YoshQ, Zhao, and Mr.Concon. But their placings aren't as great as Boss' and Biglou's placings/wins in the past.

So if you Luigi mains want to improve Luigi's placing just play better with him, implement mindgames into your playstyle, learn mus and learn to sweetspot Up b.

 

[TreK]

{interesting stuff}

That was interesting stuff.

However, once you go through the end of the characters that actually matter (no just your opinion since you see fairly consistent results through Fox) his MUs and DKs are far more similar and really it'd be more appropriate to say that DK should be around where Luigi is rather than Luigi moving up.

We can agree on that actually.
I know Luigi well enough to know he's superbad, but I know some other characters decently enough to know they're superworse.

That doesn't make sense at all. In order for a character to be a threat in the metagame, they have to... actually be in the metagame.

Yup, but I kind of disagree on how the list was made. It shows the list of threats in the metagame, when what I expect to see in a tier list is the most tourney viable character.
The difference is suuuuuper thin, but it affects the maths used, and thus the results... and all the whine about that list x)

I'm doing a tourney viability list where every character gets a rating that's the sum of their matchup against each possible opponent (source : the matchup chart) times the popularity of said opponent (source : this thread). The results may differ a lot but I won't whine on either list, I just misjudged this one's purpose.

 

[Luxord]

Guys, the difference between Sheilda and ZSS/Samus and PT is that with Sheilda, you can freely choose to switch whenever, and are never forced into another 'form'. With ZSS/Samus, it's a one way trip, and with PT, it's forced on death as well as fatigue making staying the same a hindrance.

What my question is, why does the fact that's it a transformation that can be done freely satisfy some magic requirement to having a spot on the list?

I already listed the reasons to switch between sheik and zelda in my earlier post, and the reasons are pretty much the same for samus to -> ZSS.

IIRC xDD-master also posted that link of quik switching to ZSS at the beginning, thus losing 2 parts and getting thrown in order to have a more favorable matchup and to surprise his opponent; in **both** cases transforming is a risk so why shouldn't Zamus have a spot?

EDIT: Just thought of one counter I can't argue against, samus+zss in tourney isn't as common as people using both sheik and zelda, so I guess only tier list things that are actually seen, though I feel it should be anything that can be seen.

 

[Dcold]

If that's the case, then PT should be listed as 3 separate characters right? I can use just Squirtle, although it hinders me, I can do that. I'd settle for Zelda/Sheik to be one spot since I can freely switch characters. For Samus->ZSS I cannot switch back after going to ZSS, so once I go to ZSS, it is then from there on out ZSS's match.

Either PT goes to 3 characters, or all hell breaks loose. Your choice.

 

[Eddie G]

What Dcold said. I can't imagine why that is so difficut to understand/accept.

 

[Kuro~]

The largest reasoning i see for it is if you eliminate the possibility of solely using said characters then that would create confusion on low/mid tier side events.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If that's the case, then PT should be listed as 3 separate characters right? I can use just Squirtle, although it hinders me, I can do that. I'd settle for Zelda/Sheik to be one spot since I can freely switch characters. For Samus->ZSS I cannot switch back after going to ZSS, so once I go to ZSS, it is then from there on out ZSS's match.

Either PT goes to 3 characters, or all hell breaks loose. Your choice.

But if you die the game switches for you. So I GUESS you could, but good luck beating a competent player with solo fatigued Squirtle without ever dropping a stock.

 

[Ishiey]

But switching to ZSS is one of Samus options, so Samus should be as good as ZSS as switching ALWAYS is possible, and Samus may be better in some match ups or idk, but she cant be worse.

See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4btCQQcRhw

quiKsilver used samus as a "mindgame pick" on game three.

He started as Samus and transformed the instant the match started... you can't be serious. Like, you really can't be serious. Quik might as well have started ZSS and stood still while some armor pieces were chucked away and eaten a fthrow, same result.

Of course they're far away from Luigi, because Luigi was placed damn too low on that tier list. Just check the matchup chart. If you add the matchup ratios from MK to the end of the high tier (aka the matchups that matter), for Luigi it's -14, and for PT it's -20. Not even talking about DK.

Luigi is really unpopular and the method used to calculate the tier list was quite unfair on him.

CJ's already got this. And Luigi's lack of popularity should've actually helped him out with results :o

Also, @ Ishiey- Wouldn't everything be so much easier if the file automatically downloaded every time you came to post here and refused to close until you read it?

Yes. Or if people who posted without downloading the file first were automatically roombanned. Either way though, just because people download it doesn't mean they understand it, or are even willing to try understanding it :/

I don't get it, really. Almost EVERY SINGLE QUESTION can be answered by the excel file. Only things that doesn't is probably "borderline" being a tier category. People, seriously, look at the file and try to understand it. If you don't understand something in the file, ask questions about it here, referencing what part of the file you don't understand, and then we'll actually be able to get somewhere.

just because it's flexible for the whole match it's not an option to be judged? Let's say I'm a samus main who has a bracket match against fox, and for all intents and purposes it's matchup I feel I exceed in. Then when the fox wins first, I win second, and it's his CP I decide I'm not confident enough to go samus/full samus in game 3 because of the stage I'm being taken to. Thus I can exploit the usage of my body parts AND matchup inexperience in order to win JUST like Sheilda players do.

The reasons to switch: trolling because who you're against isn't that good, landing a kill move, or straight matchups (for example zelda v fox or sheik v fox, lets be real)

So... why don't you just go ZSS from the start. You have nothing to gain by switching mid-match that you couldn't gain starting as the other character. Unless there's some weird metagame development and Samus mains start switching to ZSS after dying to get a kill, MAYBE. MU inexperience is not an excuse for anything after the game has been out for, what, four years or something? Come on. The use of such a technique in the current metagame is actually non-existent, and therefore the chances of ZSS/Samus appearing on the tier list are also non-existent.

Olimar is not second.
What the **** are you doing, BBR?

If that word wasn't censor it would be bolded, underlined, italicized, size seven, and red. Just use your imagination, I guess. The same kind of absurd imagination that must have factored into this decision.

Were drugs/alcohol related in this decision?
If you say no you are lying.

We are trying something new and using a formula. Most of us also aren't in favor of Olimar being second, but the way results were factored in, that's what happened. Since we already determined the weighting for each category before getting the data, we couldn't just change it because we didn't agree with how it turned out in practice, I hope you can understand that much. I'm not a fan of the way results were factored in either, and am in favor of removing their impact on the next tier list.

If you open up the excel file, you'll see the entire reason Olimar is 2nd is because of results. So, yeah, we didn't intentionally vote for it to be this way, calm down.

Guys, the difference between Sheilda and ZSS/Samus and PT is that with Sheilda, you can freely choose to switch whenever, and are never forced into another 'form'. With ZSS/Samus, it's a one way trip, and with PT, it's forced on death as well as fatigue making staying the same a hindrance.

Basically the same thing that I said before, about the flexibility. Sheilda is flexible, the other combinations aren't.

I'm doing a tourney viability list where every character gets a rating that's the sum of their matchup against each possible opponent (source : the matchup chart) times the popularity of said opponent (source : this thread). The results may differ a lot but I won't whine on either list, I just misjudged this one's purpose.

I actually wanted to do things like this haha. If you ever go through with it, let me know how it turns out, I'm interested in seeing the differences.

If that's the case, then PT should be listed as 3 separate characters right? I can use just Squirtle, although it hinders me, I can do that. I'd settle for Zelda/Sheik to be one spot since I can freely switch characters. For Samus->ZSS I cannot switch back after going to ZSS, so once I go to ZSS, it is then from there on out ZSS's match.

Either PT goes to 3 characters, or all hell breaks loose. Your choice.

+1 this.

The largest reasoning i see for it is if you eliminate the possibility of solely using said characters then that would create confusion on low/mid tier side events.

You can still say that going "solo" Sheik is allowed in tier X and below tournaments, as well as the same for "solo" Zelda.

 

[xDD-Master]

I dont think Samus is better than ZSS in any MU... that makes it pretty redundant to list Samus at the same place as ZSS. Just judge Samus on her own since you can play her without switching to ZSS.

I agree, I think ZSS and Samus, and Sheik and Zelda. No Sheilda.

He started as Samus and transformed the instant the match started... you can't be serious. Like, you really can't be serious. Quik might as well have started ZSS and stood still while some armor pieces were chucked away and eaten a fthrow, same result.

You probably dont understand what I mean...
When you say that Zelda and Sheik shouldnt count as there own but ONLY as sheilda, as its the same as Diddy without Naners, you should have transform to ZSS in mind, when judging Samus. Otherwise thats inconsistent.

 

[Damix91]

The Advantage in going Samus>ZSS is that on an opponen's counterpick, he has to consider the possibility of 2 characters instead of 1. He may want to pick 1 character to counterpick Samus and a different to counter ZSS.

 

[-LzR-]

No one needs to counterpick Samus.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If anything I'd see Wolf making that jump before Fox, but they seem pretty much neck-and-neck otherwise.

Only if me or Kain get top 10 at a national or win a stacked regional