Official BBR Tier List v7

[Atomsk_92]

Esam. . . . . . .

 

[| Big D |]

Oh cool, how do you generally approach the mu?

 

[Hippieslayer]

Latest news everyone Lucas is no longer Mid tier and Luigi ****ing owns. Furthermore Marth sucks.

http://oi49.tinypic.com/14sgk0i.jpg

 

[DMG]

LOOOOOL Nope.


ICs: -3
MK: -2
Olimar: -2
Falco: -1
Diddy: -1
Pikachu: -1

That's it. DDD either goes even or beats everything else IMO.

If some of those -1's mean 6:4, then yeah I agree. Cause Falco is not a baby 55:45.

A lot of his even MU's though are campy as balls or you actually have to think on how to play Dedede outside of shielding grabbing and Bair. ZSS and Fox you have to think.

Lucario ZSS have a case for being over Dedede. G&W and TL do not.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think DDD's -2 and -3 vs ICs and MK pretty much delete any chance he has of ever doing super well in any national or regional competitive tournament. lol

 

[Atomsk_92]

If some of those -1's mean 6:4, then yeah I agree. Cause Falco is not a baby 55:45.

A lot of his even MU's though are campy as balls or you actually have to think on how to play Dedede outside of shielding grabbing and Bair. ZSS and Fox you have to think.

Lucario ZSS have a case for being over Dedede. G&W and TL do not.

Falco and Diddy are on the verge of being 55:45 imo. Pika only has a very slight advantage vs DDD. Lucario is a bad character. A character that struggles with virtually ANYTHING that camps him isn't good. ZSS is bad cause one basic strategy stomps her. inb4lolulost2salem.

I think DDD's -2 and -3 vs ICs and MK pretty much delete any chance he has of ever doing super well in any national or regional competitive tournament. lol

OH DAMN DDD LOSES TO THE 2 BEST CHARACTERS IN THE GAME. WE'LL NEVER SEE HIM PLACING EVER RITE? Oh wait. It could be because there's 2 DDDs.

 

[Dcold]

When 4GOD starts wrecking though there will be another up there.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think DDD's -2 and -3 vs ICs and MK pretty much delete any chance he has of ever doing super well in any national or regional competitive tournament. lol

Well, that's pretty much what's stopped Wario all this time (~-2 against MK, -2 against Marth, -2 against Dedede).

When 4GOD starts wrecking though there will be another up there.

Well, he's back from his family summer vacation thing now, so, here's to hoping he gets some exposure.

 

[da K.I.D.]

But nah GW has the far better matchup spread clearly even though he loses to Snake, Diddy, MK, ICs, Olimar, Marth, DDD, Falco, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, and Waddle Doo.

DDD vs ZSS is even or in DDD's favor. inb4wellulosttosalemwelli'velosttolotsofcharactersdddbeatsLMFAO

Hey, what Pikachus have you played to make you say the mu is -1?

I somehow managed to keep my composure through all of this.

Latest news everyone Lucas is no longer Mid tier and Luigi ****ing owns. Furthermore Marth sucks.

http://oi49.tinypic.com/14sgk0i.jpg

But this just effing obliterated me ROFL.

Oh cool, how do you generally approach the mu?

1st of all. I would probably say that Im the only one in this thread worth listening to about pikachu that didnt get the lions share of experience with the character from ESAM.

2ndly. Ive felt for a really long time that all ddds approach this matchup really badly. I dont really think pikachu beats ddds but everyone that i watch doesnt go about it the right way.
DDDs play this matchup really scared and intimidated, because I dont think they realize that pikachu has to enter ddds grab range, long before he can do anything important. walking at him and preemptively grabbing his mixups and approaches does a lot for him. Pikachu cant grab ddd with out exposing himself to be grabbed first. nor can he use any useful aerials without entering ddds grab range before hand. quick attacks to break this are also readable with stand grab or pivot grab.
it doesnt seem like a big deal but if every stock you could 2 situations where pikachu gets in and gets ddd into the air into a 20% grab for ddd, it would likely change the outcome of the match.
but since Im the only one who plays ddd like that, and my ddd is bad, it will just stay as a bad matchup for him.

 

[infiniteV115]

^
Wait
Why are you worth listening to about Pikachu? Who are you? O.o

And I always had trouble understanding why Wario supposedly loses to MK by -2. It really seems like a -1 to me.

 

[Fuujin]

Latest news everyone Lucas is no longer Mid tier and Luigi ****ing owns. Furthermore Marth sucks.

http://oi49.tinypic.com/14sgk0i.jpg

 

[Laem]

Falco and Diddy are on the verge of being 55:45 imo. Pika only has a very slight advantage vs DDD. Lucario is a bad character. A character that struggles with virtually ANYTHING that camps him isn't good. ZSS is bad cause one basic strategy stomps her. inb4lolulost2salem.

So... why again did you lose to salem while one basic strategy stomps ZSS? Wait is this basic strategy "herpderpshield" because that was JUST the subject earlier and no1 actually believed that **** anymore.

OH DAMN DDD LOSES TO THE 2 BEST CHARACTERS IN THE GAME. WE'LL NEVER SEE HIM PLACING EVER RITE? Oh wait. It could be because there's 2 DDDs.

...And because d3 loses to characters.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

^
Wait
Why are you worth listening to about Pikachu? Who are you? O.o

And I always had trouble understanding why Wario supposedly loses to MK by -2. It really seems like a -1 to me.

7-frame jump squat, super-slow ground options, bad range in the air. Wario has to make two good reads in quick succession just to be able to damage a smart Meta Knight who stays close to the ground and spaces well.

Wario has literally no safe, reliable attack options in this matchup, and Meta Knight has no reason to put himself at risk. Every offensive move from Wario is a guessing game that is heavily skewed in Meta Knight's favor. Wario doesn't move quickly enough to capitalize on gaps between Meta Knight's pokes without having to make a read AFTER making the read that gets you in in the first place.

 

[Ayce God]

^ I thought that after watching glutonny play ally.

 

[da K.I.D.]

^
Wait
Why are you worth listening to about Pikachu? Who are you? O.o

And I always had trouble understanding why Wario supposedly loses to MK by -2. It really seems like a -1 to me.

because pikapika has almost always been the second best pikachu player and hes pretty much been my exclusive training partner for the last... 5 years.

 

[Ayce God]

^ I'm sure he wasn't expecting that response. LOL

 

[zmx]

because pikapika has almost always been the second best pikachu player and hes pretty much been my exclusive training partner for the last... 5 years.

I'm pretty sure the top 2 Pikachus are Esam and Hayase. And then after that probably Z.

Also not that I know everyone but I've never heard of pikapika. Has he been active lately?

I guess Mr.R is a bad Marth then XD

Speaking of you and Mr. R, didn't you guys face in tourny on stream a while back? Was that recorded? I didn't find it on the CanadaSmash channel.

 

[da K.I.D.]

neither of us has been horribly active in brawl since.... pound 5/when marvel 3 came out.

If I could get him to practice consistently with me again, he would be better than Z.

but im always here, keeping tabs on new developments and such. So id say pikachu, sonic, and ike (san), are the 3 characters that Im definitely the most qualified to talk about

 

[C.J.]

I'm pretty sure the top 2 Pikachus are Esam and Hayase. And then after that probably Z.

Also not that I know everyone but I've never heard of pikapika. Has he been active lately?




Speaking of you and Mr. R, didn't you guys face in tourny on stream a while back? Was that recorded? I didn't find it on the CanadaSmash channel.

Not uploaded onto YouTube. It's archived on the twitch station it was on though

 

[Atomsk_92]

So... why again did you lose to salem while one basic strategy stomps ZSS? Wait is this basic strategy "herpderpshield" because that was JUST the subject earlier and no1 actually believed that **** anymore.


...And because d3 loses to characters.

Forgive me lord for losing in a game I do not practice anymore.


DDD's only unwinnable matchup in my mind is ICs.

 

[Dr Peepee]

which marths are you referring to? At the top of the metagame I believe NEO isn't positive vs. Atomsk. Additionally Mr-R did bad vs Atomsk. NEO's record vs Coney is 0-1 also. MikeHAZE lost to lain's rusty DDD in 2009 lmao

Marths have quite a lot of room to improve vs DDD though, I will agree.

Dr. Peepee (summon for your thoughts on the MU)

F


Quickly, I believe that Marth outmaneuvering DDD hard gives him a strong edge going into the matchup. I don't believe that Marth kills off of as many openings as DDD does, and dealing with DDD's large shield(grab) is tough. However, there is a zone between Ftilt and grab that Marth can play with and abuse DDD hard in, so it may simply be that Marths do not abuse that zone well enough rather than the matchup being bad for Marth. It is hard to say because I am not sure of DDD countermeasures to Marth attempting to stay in that zone. Perhaps something wonky like going for shield drop walk forward grab or turnaround Bair could be good, but those options seem so slow/awkward that I'm pretty sure most DDDs would prefer to roll/spotdodge and take their smaller damage/loss of stage.

 

[Coney]

ddd beats marth B)

neo was outplaying me hard but i got one grab and read the **** out of him and it completely ruined his concentration, hova

patiently waiting for the next ddd revolution, this character needs good players

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dk vs marth

Marth advantages

Strong punish game
Good /safe pressure
Strong trap game
Good at keeping momentum
Good speed and mobility

Disadvantages

Light weight
Poor kill moves
Weak to traps
Mediocre recovery

Dks advantages

Heavy weight
Strong kill moves
Good pokes
Good anti approach options

Disadvantges

Large hurtbox
Poor shield
Weak against traps
Mediocre recovery

Marths gameplan

Marth has no range advantage in this fight so he must rely on his other positive traits. His speed lets him get in effectively and his strong punish options like shield drop dancing blade and dolphin slash OoS let him punish ftilt from dk as well as bad bairs and dtilts when in range. Once inside his goal is to apply pressure with well spaced dtilts and fairs to force a reaction so Marth can take control. If Marth gets dk on the ledge or in the air dk is going to have a hard time. Marth is strong when it comes to trap situations and can reset them vs dk fairly easily. Dk is limited in his responses when juggled. He can fast fall air dodge, side b to stall, or risk an attack. All of these responses can be forced and punished if Marth is patient. A simple fast fall uair into utilt or usmash will reset the situation and catch dk on the way down. Dk needs to guess right or he will take a lot of damage from being reset a lot. Ledge trap is similar. Dk has limited responses when Marth is spaced from the ledge correctly outside of Dks ledge attack range. Dk can risk a ledge jump donkey punch which is awesome reward if it hits but he could just get himself killed. Again dk must guess. Marth wants to ride his momentum to victory building up lots of damage until he can get a kill by punishing something or from a gimp. Speaking of gimping dk isn't sure easy to gimp but marth can def harrass his recovery. Run off stage and counter his up b and then try to rack up damage is a simple and effective way to make dk work to get back on the stage.

Dks gameplan

Dk has the range advantage here as well as good tools to keep Marth at bay. He doesn't ride his momentum, rath he chooses an option based on the situation to shut down Marths approach. Dk does good damage just on single strikes and good knock back as well so each attempt he shuts down from Marth nets him a nice little hunk of damage generally and Marth must try to get back in. Dk has angled ftilt to shut down Marths sh game, dtilts and down b for ground approaches and if Marth gets predictable then a well placed fsmash or nine wind donkey punch can end Marths stock fast. Dk plays a high risk high reward game. He is a fortress and his hits count. On the flip side alot of his best answers are punishable and avoidable on reaction which then puts him in a position where he is at Marths mercy. His weight mitigates this giving him more chances to guess wrong then Marth. Where Marth can only wrong once or twice a stock...dk can take a few more and make it up in one good hit for a kill depending on Marths percent. Generally dk won't be dying until the 180s while Marth would be lucky to live till 100. As far as traps go dk isn't the best at setting them up but Marth is weak to them so it's something he can take advantage of. Marth has better answers to juggle traps though. Neutral b can be reversed boosting Marth in the opposite direction. Side b to stall or counter but the latter is risky since its hard for the hotbox to strike below him unless the opponent overshoots. Dks uair is good for juggle traps and cargo throw is a solid way to set them up. Marth is also trash on the ledge so dk can rock him there too. Space outside of Marths ledge attack now Marth has to guess and get lucky no diff then dk. For edge guarding dk can get a gimp with cargo spike at high percentage. Harassing Marth is harder since Marth can go lower then dk can and up b plus up b might stage spike dk so it's usually not worth it.

Summary

They counter each other. They play to each others pros and cons. Essentially canceling each other out. Marth h good pressure and good punishes and dk has a bad shield and several of his good options are unsafe. Marth is light and dk kills early. They can both counter each others buttons and tools. Marths sh fair beats Dks down b. Dks angled ftilt beats Marths sh fair. Marths nair will beat Dks bair. It goes on and on. The stronger player will win this fight. There is no one go to option for either char. It's a real test of skill.


Hope that was good seagull. I know I prolly missed sum things but I think I conveyed why it's even.

Who do you want next?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Do Zelda vs Kirby

 

[Ishiey]

I'm curious to see what you think about Wolf vs Marth / how you break it down. Almost everyone I play with doesn't like that MU lol

 

[C.J.]

I'm pretty impressed he typed all that out on his phone.

 

[Emblem Lord]

iPad. I'll do wolf when I get back from my work meeting. Yes I have a work meeting at nine pm and I gotta be at work at five am.

Nonsense.

 

[DMG]

^
Wait
Why are you worth listening to about Pikachu? Who are you? O.o

And I always had trouble understanding why Wario supposedly loses to MK by -2. It really seems like a -1 to me.

The biggest issue, outside of the range disadvantage, is that MK controls air to ground transitions incredibly well. Wario can't fight MK ground to ground that's super duper obvious lol. Wario is solid in the air but has the range disadvantage. His best approaches are in the air, while being close to the ground. That gives you the best chance of punishing MK since if he whiffs you can try to land and punish, or if he decides to stay grounded you can try to airdodge/throw something out before landing.

7-frame jump squat, super-slow ground options, bad range in the air. Wario has to make two good reads in quick succession just to be able to damage a smart Meta Knight who stays close to the ground and spaces well.

Wario has literally no safe, reliable attack options in this matchup, and Meta Knight has no reason to put himself at risk. Every offensive move from Wario is a guessing game that is heavily skewed in Meta Knight's favor. Wario doesn't move quickly enough to capitalize on gaps between Meta Knight's pokes without having to make a read AFTER making the read that gets you in in the first place.

^^^

Wario's ground game consists of trying to shield or PS MK's attacks and counter. Doesn't work vs spaced moves, is also very limited in general. His airgame has to deal with the speed and range of MK's aerials.


The cool thing is that few MK players really seem to know the Wario MU. Dojo's the only MK I have complete faith in for that MU: there isn't a single Wario with a positive record vs him. In fact he may have only dropped 2 sets ever to Wario players: one of them back in the 2009 metagame I got lucky and beat him on a BAD day for him, the other to Bassem (and then he beats Bassem the next set the same day iirc). He's the only MK that has made it feel almost hopeless lol. There are plenty of MK's throughout the days that I've tricked and punished sloppy Fairs or that same *** glide MK players like to do. You know exactly which one I mean, where they get knocked away and decide to just instantly glide back. Same height same timing. **** is easy to clap. People do stuff like THAT and then go man Wario's got the tools to face MK it's not that bad lol. It's bad folks, try doing the MU for years and you'd understand.

 

[| Big D |]

Unwinnable you say?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Unwinnable you say?

Literally half of the moves used in these games are spotdodge mix-ups. Thanks for reminding me how much some characters' gameplay revolves around luck.

 

[Ishiey]

^ This is how I feel about a few MUs, except with stupidly unsafe FF crossups that are all about hitting people during shield-drop :/ so much of this game is based on the silliest things.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I disagree completely. I feel the high tiers all have a real metagame and many of them do different things effectively. I feel melee was about one thing for the most part which was safe rush down and pressure. I think brawls successful chars play many diff ways.

Only a few good chars r based on dumb stuff I feel in brawl. I do feel sorry for chars below mid tier though. Feels like they have no real strategy or solid metagame to speak of.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You only think that because you don't understand the Melee metagame.

And that's a fact.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

With D3, I think he loses to ZSS and Diddy but that seems more or less fine with what Atomsk posted.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

ddd beats marth B)

neo was outplaying me hard but i got one grab and read the **** out of him and it completely ruined his concentration, hova

patiently waiting for the next ddd revolution, this character needs good players

I need convincing on how great DDD is as a character before I'll be convinced all he needs is a good players to make him look better. If that is what you meant by a ddd revolution.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You only think that because you don't understand the Melee metagame.

And that's a fact.

Top four in melee is about safe pressure and moves thy don't have to commit too. On block they are safe and have all their options. If they get a hit then u eat huge damage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Every move is a commitment in Melee, because while characters are stronger offensively they are also stronger defensively.

You're making it sound like reads don't exist, and Melee is just: "I attack you, you mess up, I take your stock. You attack me, you mess up, I take your stock, etc..."

 

[da K.I.D.]

melee is a lot more about really flashy camping than anything else. its a shame nobody notices this unless its armada vs hbox

 

[Grim Tuesday]

K.I.D. is spot on.

Dash-dance camping is one of the strongest forms of camping in the entire series.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dding is both offensive and defensive. Same as stair stepping in tekken. You use movement to put mental pressure on ur opponent and test their threshold. Put it also allows you to ave quickly in and out of ur opponents optimal range.

And of course reads exist. But the best chars in melee r the ones that commit the least. Actually that's pretty much any good char in any fighter ever. U cannot quantify a read though and u can't apply that to the char itself because that is not a trait of a chars tool. That's the player which is not wut we were talking about.