Official BBR Tier List v7

[TheReflexWonder]

Being able to compete with Marth in range in general helps a lot. Dedede F-Air, B-Air, roll forward, spotdodge bull****, F-Tilt, pivot grab...Marth can't do much unless he puts himself in range of these options, and Dedede stands to gain more per read, I feel.

 

[infiniteV115]

I guess Mr.R is a bad Marth then XD

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Thing is, Marth F-Air by itself is difficult to shieldgrab, but it's the option after a powershield that counts. Dedede can powershield and then park himself in front of Marth as he's coming down. Marth has ways to keep him out, but it's pretty much a guessing game at that point, which gets harder for Marth if Dedede manages to back Marth to the edge of the stage through taking it slow (something almost every character wants to do, and Dedede does it well).

 

[Seagull Joe]

beats .

 

[Emblem Lord]

I will forever contest Marth losing to dedede.

What dedede has is risk vs reward. Also saying he can shield grab fair is rather misleading. Tipper fair with good di no he can't. Shff fair no he can't.

A bad fair yes.

Also dedede has a dead zone Marth can take advantage of between where ftilt won't reach and it's not safe to throw stuff. Marth can duck a projectile throw but still be in range to mount an offense. Also ftilt is unsafe on block.

 

[Seagull Joe]

has a high priority Bair (It's like people forget this key detail), a Cg that puts offstage, and is much lighter by comparison.

Coney was beating Mr. R's consistently in friendlies at Apex 2012 if that means anything. Ramin told me he'd go a different character in tourney (, , or )

 

[Tesh]

When will people accept that Marth isn't good.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Marth is good.

He just doesn't beat Dedede. :/

 

[-Jumpman-]

has a high priority Bair (It's like people forget this key detail), a Cg that puts offstage, and is much lighter by comparison.

Coney was beating Mr. R's consistently in friendlies at Apex 2012 if that means anything. Ramin told me he'd go a different character in tourney (, , or )

Ramin sucks vs ddd, has been saying that for years.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In terms of options they are dead even. Like I said dedede has risk vs reward. The stuff he gets for a mistake or a guess leads to damage. I think Marth actually controls the fight a bit better but he has to be so consistent to not get hurt.

Dedede doesn't actually control Marth per say. He plays a reactive guessing game and punishes mistakes.

If Marth isn't good dedede must be worthless cuz he is a counter pick only char while Marth can at least solo in a tourney and place.

 

[C.J.]

Marth beats DDD... right up until he gets grabbed. Then he takes 20+ damage, is put onto the ledge, and has to try to not take a million more damage.

In super duper theory bros it's even/Marth wins. But realistically, Marth loses because his mistakes get punished harder than vice-versa, in general.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's not theory. Watch any Marth vs dedede that's exactly wut happens. Dedede gets slapped around till he gets a shield grab then punishes hard.

 

[clowsui]

which marths are you referring to? At the top of the metagame I believe NEO isn't positive vs. Atomsk. Additionally Mr-R did bad vs Atomsk. NEO's record vs Coney is 0-1 also. MikeHAZE lost to lain's rusty DDD in 2009 lmao

Marths have quite a lot of room to improve vs DDD though, I will agree.

Dr. Peepee (summon for your thoughts on the MU)

 

[C.J.]

Actually I think NEO might be positive vs Atomsk. NEO always comments that Atomsk seems to play worse vs him.

But he's saying, not that Marth has a winning record vs DDD, but that Marth players tend to hold the match in their advantage, in practice, until they misspace an aerial and get grabbed for it.

It was in response to my comment of Marth winning in theory. And while I agree with what EL says, that it does happen that Marth carries advantage when playing perfectly, the idea that Marth will play perfectly the entire duration of the match in order to retain advantage the entire time is theory. As a result, Marth only wins the MU in theory while in practice, as the Marth players WILL make mistakes, DDD likely wins the MU practically given the punishes that DDD has outweigh those Marth has on DDD.

Why couldn't DDD (and Snake) just not be fat =(

 

[clowsui]

I was more responding to the idea that Marth vs DDD isn't in DDD's favor haha. I agree w theory bros' idea of the MU being 5:5 but it's just too difficult to play at optimal level the whole time like you said. Especially challenging for Marth IMO is the fact that he has to play w/out fear 24/7. If he fears the grab DDD gets nonsense

 

[Tesh]

Spacing outside of grab ranges is really easy if your opponent never moves...

 

[Seagull Joe]

Ramin sucks vs ddd, has been saying that for years.

>I say beats .
>Someone says Ramin sucks vs .
>Ramin's #1 training partner from my knowledge has been T (The best in Europe?).

I.e: Ramin must be matchup inexperienced or suck vs that character.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Marth vs d3 is ********


the entire mu takes place at the ledge.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth upB ledge vs DDD.
Marth lose stock.

 

[Hippieslayer]

OK its time again: What is wrong with the thing that Lucas isnt mid tier ill tell u: A LOT

http://oi45.tinypic.com/5wyyxv.jpg

 

[Lord Chair]

>I say beats .
>Someone says Ramin sucks vs .
>Ramin's #1 training partner from my knowledge has been T (The best in Europe?).

I.e: Ramin must be matchup inexperienced or suck vs that character.

It was T who first stated the MU is even.

 

[da K.I.D.]

After watching EL post about Marth, I can see why everyone thought discussions with Marth players were a joke a few years back.

"I outspace you with perfect fairs. even/advantage Marth" x36

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hmmm that's not accurate. Give me a match up and I'll give you an extensive breakdown of wut each char wants to do, their best options, how they can counter each other.

I never oversimplified any match to that point. Not even vs bad chars.

A match is how the chars tools interact and the risk v reward on those options. So in this match wut allows dedede to carry himself through is that one he lives way longer and two he punishes mistakes harder. If u look at tools they go head to head.

Give me any match vs Marth and I promise you my ratios and reasoning are far more logically sound then most. For example I don't think Marth has any matches over 6/4 except cf, Gannon, Lucas and ness. I also think he has a lot of even matches vs a good chunk of the cast.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@Tesh: Marth is not a bad character, if he should drop it isn't far.

I understand why you're frustrated about it though. It's like whenever people on smashboards talk about Marth they neglect to mention ANY of his exploitable problems. He's light as hell, has ridiculously laggy kill moves (for the most part), and his recovery is OK and usually gets the job done but I think we'd all agree people do a pretty poor job of exploiting him offstage.

Also I can't stand to watch european Marth videos. Leon and Mr. R are ****ing awesome players but they get away with so much nonsense. Why does no one EVER punish their up-b whiffs? EVER? Why do people always roll off the ledge in fear and let him regrab it after his up-b when he would have clearly died? Why are MK players STILL getting hit by low-perent fthrow-nair strings? lol

Marth's tier list position is at worst one or two higher than it should be but it's way better than when he was 5th, wtf was that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Give me any match vs Marth and I promise you my ratios and reasoning are far more logically sound then most. For example I don't think Marth has any matches over 6/4 except cf, Gannon, Lucas and ness.

Tell me about Pokémon Trainer, since I think that 6-4 is REALLY generous toward Pokémon Trainer.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Hmmm that's not accurate. Give me a match up and I'll give you an extensive breakdown of wut each char wants to do, their best options, how they can counter each other.

I never oversimplified any match to that point. Not even vs bad chars.

A match is how the chars tools interact and the risk v reward on those options. So in this match wut allows dedede to carry himself through is that one he lives way longer and two he punishes mistakes harder. If u look at tools they go head to head.

Give me any match vs Marth and I promise you my ratios and reasoning are far more logically sound then most. For example I don't think Marth has any matches over 6/4 except cf, Gannon, Lucas and ness. I also think he has a lot of even matches vs a good chunk of the cast.

, , , and matchup breakdowns ratios? These are the floaters in Mid tier I usually hear either goes even with, wins 55-45 or +1, or loses to 45-55 or -1. vs is the only one I can specifically say is even based on my multiple in game experiences as well as observing play s.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

ROB is even because of projectile and ftilt outranging fair, but extending the hurtbox.

 

[Atomsk_92]

has a far worse spread.

LOOOOOL Nope.


ICs: -3
MK: -2
Olimar: -2
Falco: -1
Diddy: -1
Pikachu: -1

That's it. DDD either goes even or beats everything else IMO.

 

[| Big D |]

I'd go as far as to say Olimar Dedede as -1.

 

[Atomsk_92]

But nah GW has the far better matchup spread clearly even though he loses to Snake, Diddy, MK, ICs, Olimar, Marth, DDD, Falco, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, and Waddle Doo.

 

[Seagull Joe]

LOOOOOL Nope.


ICs: -3
MK: -2
Olimar: -2
Falco: -1
Diddy: -1
Pikachu: -1

That's it. DDD either goes even or beats everything else IMO.

My thoughts exactly for his matchups. He might lose to -1 though. Other then that pretty perfect list.

I'd go as far as to say Olimar Dedede as -1.

No.

But nah GW has the far better matchup spread clearly even though he loses to Snake, Diddy, MK, ICs, Olimar, Marth, DDD, Falco, Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, and Waddle Doo.

-Dead-@Waddle doo.

 

[Atomsk_92]

DDD vs ZSS is even or in DDD's favor. inb4wellulosttosalemwelli'velosttolotsofcharactersdddbeatsLMFAO

 

[allshort17]

Explain to me why you think Diddy and Falco are -1 please.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Falco can't kill DDD. Gets easily pressured to the ledge and can be ****ed with extremely easily. DDD can easily just walk up Power shield like everything.

DDD has to tools to handle diddy very well, just he's a bit slow. Diddy wins on the ground barely and ddd wins in the air and offstage dominantly. DDD lives longer and blahblahgenericdddstuffblahblah.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Also feel like ddd is 9th best character in the game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm surprised you don't have Fox as disadvantage. I can agree with the other numbers though.

 

[Atomsk_92]

I don't have him as that because I believe DDD goes even or very slightly wins.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

DDD sucks nuts

 

[Atomsk_92]

DDD sucks nuts

 

[| Big D |]

Hey, what Pikachus have you played to make you say the mu is -1?