Official BBR Tier List v6

[Spelt]

^ I was about to say that. :U

 

[Kinzer]

D3 used to be considered the 3rd best, but then he got mastered and ppl started learning him. He's still a good character though.

... What are you even saying here? Now you're just going in circles/ignoring me.

Can't you do better than this? You could at least try to read what I just said come up with a new, better counterpoint, or admit when I'm right. :/

 

[Flayl]

Pikachu has Utilt into stuff and FAir into stuff and jab frame traps, everything very low range but the combo potential is there.

Of course then there's quick attack which throws the range problem out the window almost

 

[zmx]

This is like saying D3's metagame consists of just standing dthrow infinite. It only works on what, 6 characters? D3 Bowser DK Mario Luigi Samus.
Like D3's standing dthrow infinites, Pikachu's CGs don't significantly affect that many MUs. This is the 3rd time I've said this, dude. Start .


You don't need to have true combos to be a good character. I mean, Snake has what, jab1-->ftilt1-->ftilt 2...dthrow-->dthrow if read properly I guess? Oh look, he's like the 2nd best character with MK gone.

Jab1-ftilt and any grab thrown in the mixup is often not a true combo depending on the character and spacing plus I know at least some characters can SDI out of it. Also keep in mind Snake has a TON of pseudo combos and countless setups. Being a snake main I could go on about them for ages.

That being said I agree that having the most "true" combos doesn't make your character the best. Peach has some of the deadliest low percent combos that are arguably "true" but she's still only considered mid tier.

 

[infiniteV115]

Ok, even better. Snake barely has true combos and is still like 2nd best without MK.

 

[Doc King]

THIS

THIS IS WHY I FKNG HATE YOU

THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO DIE IN A FIRE AND NEVER BE ALLOWED TO POST AGAIN.

I STARTED this conversation by answering THIS VERY QUESTION.

Shut. The hell. Up.



I hate you. I hate talking to you. and im never going to do it again because you dont know how to see through your own idiotic bias, and admit that your favorite character is NOT that great.


This is Goggles. I'm done here.

This is very hypocritical and ********.

Whenever I mention something D3 can do, you guys just make up an excuse for why it doesn't matter. While doing that, you guys go on about some stupid **** like "Oh, Pika isn't limited because he has STANDARD MOVES LIKE EVERY ****ING CHARACTER IN THIS GAME". D3 has the same ****ing thing you *******. You guys are just too stubborn to listen to anything I say. I can say "Oh, the pika up air to nair doesn't matter because it's DIable". Also, put things this way. If ppl learn how to DI, then D3 will actually rise because he's one of the few characters who has inescapable combos. Once ppl learn how to DI, D3's can just DI away from stuff like Peach's dair.

So you're saying I deserve to die all because you get so damn mad at a ****ing videogame makes you look like pathetic as hell. Seriously, there's more to life than a game and just because you don't agree with something in a game, doesn't mean I deserve to die. Calm the **** down, it's a videogame!

Also, I'm not mad, I just find you guys very stupid. Every argument seems pointless. I mean look at my signature, it show's someone who went back on and then you guys scared him away from your stupidity.

Edit: I'm outta here. This is like the worst way to spend my time.

 

[Spelt]

The best part is that everyone here knew he would just ignore everything everyone just said and continue talking in circles, and now you're all gonna do the same thing aaaaall over again.

 

[zmx]

Don't leave Doc King. With you gone who'll be here to start unintentional drama we all enjoy?

D:

 

[Conviction]

His predeseccor (spelling?) Jebus.

 

[Steam]

Doc King, you disturb me.

But yeah pikachu without CG >>> D3 without CG. soooo many more characters would **** D3 up so hard with a much lower reward for getting a grab. it would be so much more potent to just run away from him.

also without the CG lucario would have a solid advantage on D3. :D

 

[infiniteV115]

And also DDD sucks. He's mid-tier without his CGs and low-tier with them.

 

[Anthon1996]

Just. Go. To. A. Tournament.

 

[infiniteV115]

Just. Go. To. A. Tournament.

Ladies and gentlemen, the power of the internet.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Wow, I really people are underrating DDD, yeah he'd be mid tier without his chain grab, hardly bottom though and besides the gap between mid and high is almost minimal. D3 feels like a pretty gimmicky character overall, because everything he does is simple but effective.

For instance D3 destroys wario without the chaingrab, arguably partly due to grab releases instead, but then DK comes to mind who loses against Wario despite having even grab releases. This is ABC logic; nonetheless, it rather obvious that you guys are overlooking a lot of the strong intrinsic qualities that DDD has.

 

[infiniteV115]

Both you and Doc have been throwing out the words 'you guys', but who exactly are you referring to? Care to quote?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dedede's grab height is very low. I think he could only ever land grab on a grounded Wario. And even then, he doesn't have great followups from a grab release.

In saying that, Dedede's bair makes him mid tier alone, and people who say "oh dedede would be low/mid/whatever tier without his chain garb" are dumb because at the end of the day, he still has his chain grab; so get ooooooover it kthx./mid/wh

 

[Hippieslayer]

You guys have to know that you guys is like my favourite expression, in this case I meant mainly dat kid (but I guess that when I write the term, I, at least on some level, mean for it to extend to all those who've bashed DDD a little too hard recently), whose arguments against DDD on the last few pages, btw, were:

first:

-that DDD being a good secondary means he is a bad character because good secondaries are bad character.

Considering even Jebus kinda pointed the problem with that it doesn't really need to be elaborated on.

Second:

that DDD is a gimmicky character because he is way worse without his chaingrab.

The problem with this reasoning being that unlike actual gimmicks DDD's chaingrab is hardly something which it is possible to avoid completely. Furthermore, if DDD was a gimmicky character you'd think that there would still be top players out being wrecked by him and that the case being made here is that he still sucks because they need to learn to avoid gimmicks, which isn't true either.

If on the other hand being gimmicky is just relying heavily on one or very few moves, then characters like Falco and Diddy are gimmicky because the rely heavily on, and would be way worse without, neutral and down B respectively.

But the main issue with this **** is indeed that this is just semantic crap which, while not completely uninteresting has little do with how good or not DDD actually is. Furthermore, when the main advocator of DDD is Doc King, I'd say it's reasonable to try and stay focused on the main issue of the debatte, because else you get arguments like ''DDD beats Zelda'', and ''Seriously, what other combos does Pika have outside of his chaingrab?''.

My personal opinion on the matter is kind of that the characters in high tier really aren't that far off those at the top of mid tier anyway (bar perhaps Peach), and that DDD even if he belongs in high mid tier hardly sucks. I mean the whole list is really rather blurry starting from TL and going down to like Sonic anyway.

 

[Spelt]

Considering even Jebus kinda pointed the problem with that it doesn't really need to be elaborated on.

This is where everyone's gonna stop caring about your post.

 

[Cassio]

There was actually a time before pikachus dominating CGs existed. He was 9th on the tier list. After the CGs were discovered, he remained 9th on the tier list. Currently, he's 9th on the tier list. He also wouldnt gain any signficantly negative MUs if any at all without them.

 

[Kinzer]

Dedede's grab height is very low. I think he could only ever land grab on a grounded Wario. And even then, he doesn't have great followups from a grab release.

Sir, you realize that the MU is actually not all that good for Wario mostly because this statement isn't any bit true, yes?

... Well, the low grab part I'm not sure about, but man, especially the part about grab-release options. Just thinking about it makes me cringe.

What game are you playing otherwise? Alternatively you could pass some that cocaine my way if you really think otherwise about what I just said before.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Sir, you realize that the MU is actually not all that good for Wario mostly because this statement isn't any bit true, yes?

... Well, the low grab part I'm not sure about, but man, especially the part about grab-release options. Just thinking about it makes me cringe.

What game are you playing otherwise? Alternatively you could pass some that cocaine my way if you really think otherwise about what I just said before.

I'd imagine utilt's his best option?

Other than that, he can forward air, up-smash or turnaround back air. None of these are particularly amazing. Except utilt.

Eh w/e lol.

 

[Hippieslayer]

This is where everyone's gonna stop caring about your post.

I think you missunderstood anyway.

 

[allshort17]

Dedede's grab height is very low. I think he could only ever land grab on a grounded Wario. And even then, he doesn't have great followups from a grab release.

In saying that, Dedede's bair makes him mid tier alone, and people who say "oh dedede would be low/mid/whatever tier without his chain garb" are dumb because at the end of the day, he still has his chain grab; so get ooooooover it kthx./mid/wh

Actually, his pivot grab is higher than the standing grab. It would probably catch Wario more than the standing grab.

 

[Doc King]

Dedede's grab height is very low. I think he could only ever land grab on a grounded Wario. And even then, he doesn't have great followups from a grab release.

In saying that, Dedede's bair makes him mid tier alone, and people who say "oh dedede would be low/mid/whatever tier without his chain garb" are dumb because at the end of the day, he still has his chain grab; so get ooooooover it kthx./mid/wh

D3 can actually air release Wario to a bair wall of pain. It's pretty cool to chaingrab Wario into a bair wall of pain. He can also air release Wario to an up smash and an up tilt.

 

[-LzR-]

Good luck getting in another bair with Dededes mobility.

 

[hichez50]

DDD's Bair and chaingrab are great. You guys aren't focusing on the icing on the cake though. Uptilt. While standing on the ground,with any amount of reading, he has his options covered. I don't even know you guys are talking about how good DDD would be if he didn't have a CG. The fact that is that he does and it is impossible to practically dodge it for the entire game.

 

[infiniteV115]

You're aware that there are people that beat him that don't get CGed by him, right? Lol

 

[Spelt]

I think you missunderstood anyway.

Probably.

My point still stands though.

 

[Chuee]

D3 can actually air release Wario to a bair wall of pain.

You say D3 rises when people learn to DI






















then you mention wall of pain

 

[hichez50]

You're aware that there are people that beat him that don't get CGed by him, right? Lol

They don't get CG'd often. But it is defiantly a damage builder. I guess it is totally possible to avoid all grabs but that isn't the problem.

 

[Doc King]

You're aware that there are people that beat him that don't get CGed by him, right? Lol

Same with Pikachu, like Lucario and Olimar.

Just to mention, I only mainly said Pika was all about the chaingrab just to show you how dumb you guys sound saying D3 is all about the chaingrab.

Also, for the DI thing. It is true that most combos aren't legit like D3's chaingrab. I just mentioned bair as a thing you can do on Wario since you guys said he couldn't do anything, which is definitely wrong. It's been used in tourneys before. (Watch 4God)

You guys should probably stop talking about D3. I'm pretty sure Coney and 4God can kick ur ***** with D3 easily at Apex.

 

[Steam]

Without the CG, I would have much less fear in running at D3 and rushing his **** down with lucario. his grab would still be good and bthrow sitll does good damage, but it's not nearly as scary as like 20-30% plus getting put offstage. without the CG, none of his other stuff is nearly as good because they're only good in the first place because people have to play around the CG.

but that's all hypothetical and ultimately a waste of time. like the tier list and matchup chart in general.

also lol@hiding behind top players of your character.

 

[Doc King]

You're aware that there are people that beat him that don't get CGed by him, right? Lol

Without the CG, I would have much less fear in running at D3 and rushing his **** down with lucario. his grab would still be good and bthrow sitll does good damage, but it's not nearly as scary as like 20-30% plus getting put offstage. without the CG, none of his other stuff is nearly as good because they're only good in the first place because people have to play around the CG.

but that's all hypothetical and ultimately a waste of time. like the tier list and matchup chart in general.

also lol@hiding behind top players of your character.

Mainly D3 is so good because of his broken chaingrab, but without it, he isn't completely unviable. He can still do other things like edge guard ppl and survive a lot of things.

Climbers rely a lot on their chaingrab, but they aren't completely useless without the chaingrabs.

 

[Sunnysunny]

That was the most moronic half ***** argument i've ever heard about pikachu doc. So stupid its hurting me. Talk about DDD all ya want. Don't start spouting **** about characters you have no clue about though.

This game is all about mobility. Take wario for example. His moves are subpar, but his mobilitys so high that he can make use of it. Sonic would probably be ganon tier if he was slow.

Now take luigi. He has an amazing moveset with tons of kill power, and speed, but his mobility and traction holds him back to the point where hes low tier.


Now dedede has one of the slowest mobility in the game. The only reason he thrives is because of his chaingrab. It gives him away too safely move his character to the other side of the stage, wrack up damage, and puts them off the stage so he gets a nice set up for an early kill. You gotta admit, the chaingrab is ****ing huge! It completely nullifies his mobility problem and It alone, is the only reason most characters have such bad match ups against him. It forced them into horrible situations.

DDD wouldn't be able to even nearly wrack up as damage as quick as he can with it, nor would he be able to get a kill move without the nice set up it gives him afterwards. He'd be a low mid tier at best.

Now if pikachu didn't have his chaingrab, he'd do what he normally does in match ups he can't use it. Abuse his mobility. Pikachu has arguably the most ways too approach an opponent in the game, and enough mobility too make most of them safe.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Pit is a great character, many people doubt. Doubt will remain the curse of mankind, for Pit shall prevail and be pronounced king by future generations not ridden by this particular instance of the curse of mankind. Instead they will doubt the next character, in this case Kerby the Flyer - though of course that process is gradual and not discrete as is my argument for the sake of your understanding, since you are after all cretins unaware of the superior Pit and his immense fighting talents, for Pit can double smash and hyper pound his opponents with fearsome strength and pure obliteration.

The singular force of existence is manifested through the actions of Pit and his perpetual imperative; the evergrinding wheels of organic decay as fuelled by the relentless strength of Pit’s forward B, not to mention his favorable descent upon unsuspecting victims such as Kerby the Flyer and Jigglepuff the Blob. Now you may think he cannot defeat humanoids but that is pure uneducated gossip (**** talk). Pit can defeat Snake as well, easily, thanks to his unmatched properties.

 

[zmx]

Ultimately I don't think there's much point in speculating. The fact is his CG:

1. Does exist.
2. Does help him greatly (read help, not autowin ) in a lot of mid/low tier MUs and a few high tier ones as well.

And I don't think there's anything else that needs to be said.

How about we now discuss what IS actually in the game and how it relates to the tier list instead of random "what if?" scenarios?

 

[Sunnysunny]

Oh god yes! YES!!! <3
Hippie should represent the pit and DDD boards in the BBR.

 

[Chuee]

Mainly D3 is so good because of his broken chaingrab, but without it, he isn't completely unviable. He can still do other things like edge guard ppl and survive a lot of things.

>D3
>good character
pick one

HE RETURNS

 

[C.J.]

Can we please talk about something else other than trolling Doc King/stupid DDD bias.

Talk about Ness. FOW has been doing incredible recently. Ignoring that this weekend is Apex and we'll have more data then, what do you guys think about Ness' placement?

 

[DiskaSM]

Can we please talk about something else other than trolling Doc King/stupid DDD bias.

Talk about Ness. FOW has been doing incredible recently. Ignoring that this weekend is Apex and we'll have more data then, what do you guys think about Ness' placement?

You do realize that a large portion of FOW's success lately has been with MK, not just Ness?