Official BBR Tier List v5

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The ledge can be safely stolen in between the various Uairs can hit you even while you're still on stage (character and MK position dependent obviously)? There is also the small fact that MK could simply tornado his way back up to the ledge, while hitting your character once the invincibility frames are worn off, make it to the other ledge, all while gaining a larger lead through the Nado and wasting more time. Obviously, extreme theory crafting going on here, think of it more of an example of how little this would hamper MK if this did happen than "this will happen if they grab the ledge".

I say it isn't beatable for two reasons. Firstly, the current frame data in combination of MK's truck load of options from the ledge highly, highly suggests that he can't be beaten on the ledge. This isn't something silly like "you can beat Ike by shield camping", this actually has a second point to back it up: people are so afraid of it that they are trying to weaken it with things like LGLs. At this point, I'm willing to say it, along with MK's options, render MK unbeatable on the ledge until I get some data suggesting otherwise. Which of course, I won't get with everyone and their mother using LGLs against the few people who would be willing to try this. *shrugs*



It doesn't ignore your point, it suggest that there wasn't much of a point in the first place. As for the last bit: depends on the stage list. If you have a very liberal stage list, I believe enough stages disrupt MK's normal aircamping game enough that there could be a neutral MU against him. Not on a conservative stage list though. And seeing how few stage lists I feel are liberal enough to have a shot at this, it might as well be none. It's basically Nova Scotia that has a shot at it. :\

Basically: yes at the extremes of what the smash community will do. No with what typically happens, especially around the MK heavy areas like NE US.

I'd also like to point out characters that do grab the ledge are stuck on the ledge for X amount of frames in which MK can jump back on stage and run to the other side. The except are tether's which can let go on frame 1 and Pikachu which for some reason has a lower rate than anyone in the cast without a tether.

 

[The Truth!]

The ledge can be safely stolen in between the various Uairs can hit you even while you're still on stage (character and MK position dependent obviously)?

Yes. There was like, 5 pages of discussion on it in the old tier list thread. There wasnt disagreement on stealing the ledge.

There is also the small fact that MK could simply tornado his way back up to the ledge, while hitting your character once the invincibility frames are worn off, make it to the other ledge, all while gaining a larger lead through the Nado and wasting more time. Obviously, extreme theory crafting going on here, think of it more of an example of how little this would hamper MK if this did happen than "this will happen if they grab the ledge".

lol, tornadoing onstage sounds pretty bad. I cant speak specifically for other characters, but for mine any option that forces MK onstage prevents him from planking. Outside that theres a bunch of theory on what MK can or cannot do to take back the ledge without damage that doesnt lead anywhere productive, but hardly close to concrete statements like "no character can deal with MKs planking".

It doesn't ignore your point, it suggest that there wasn't much of a point in the first place.

There was a point. It asked that you put more thought into backing up your statement, which you did in your lasts several posts. As a result it doesnt apply anymore. I dont have much to say regarding the rest of your post as we dont really disagree. Planking is gay and I dont mind seeing it hindered, but people need to be careful about making strong claims.

 

[Ripple]

hey guys what's going on in......oh.....its this again

 

[Deleted member]

Perfect planking gaiz!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually ZSS can deal with MK's planking, her charged dsmash releases on frame 1, she can do it safely out of range of his uairs, and it will reach him unless he drops down really low. She can time it so it is hit during the 2-3 frames (something like that) he is vulnerable.

MK can jump over the down smash and hit her but then he's come onto the stage anyway.

 

[Ripple]

Actually ZSS can deal with MK's planking, her charged dsmash releases on frame 1, she can do it safely out of range of his uairs, and it will reach him unless he drops down really low. She can time it so it is hit during the 2-3 frames (something like that) he is vulnerable.

MK can jump over the down smash and hit her but then he's come onto the stage anyway.

LOL, did you not jest see the hoards of MK is unbeatable threads that plagued our world? obviously you are not aware of your surroundings. Must be from a lack of faith in the heart of the cards.

as an official omni impersonator I approve this message.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's still just one character, I'm not aware of another character that can beat it

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually ZSS can deal with MK's planking, her charged dsmash releases on frame 1, she can do it safely out of range of his uairs, and it will reach him unless he drops down really low. She can time it so it is hit during the 2-3 frames (something like that) he is vulnerable.

MK can jump over the down smash and hit her but then he's come onto the stage anyway.

Or or or, MK can just smack you for being stupid enough to start charging a Dsmash.
-.-

 

[.AC.]

the power of the backroom.

 

[-Vocal-]

I can't remember if it was this thread or another (I've been on lurk status lately) but I remember people discussing 1.1 damage ratio and the possible effects it could have on PPlanking. The most important factor about PPlanking is that MK can grab the edge before his invincibility runs out, right? However, damage is correlated to hitlag, right? So is it possible that by the time two Uairs have hit your shield, the ledge invincibility would have worn off, thus making him vulnerable to projectiles/OOS moves?

More of a curiosity than anything really.

 

[Nvzman]

My friend plays as Jigglypuff and owns EVERYBODY online. As for Sonic, ehhh... at least he moved up again.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Or or or, MK can just smack you for being stupid enough to start charging a Dsmash.
-.-

What are you talking about? Dsmash releases on frame 1 and has like 3 frames of after lag. A charged dsmash isn't punishable unless you jump over it, which he can do from the ledge, but then you've defeated his planking anyway.

 

[DanGR]

What are you talking about? Dsmash releases on frame 1 and has like 3 frames of after lag. A charged dsmash isn't punishable unless you jump over it, which he can do from the ledge, but then you've defeated his planking anyway.

Except it takes like 20 frames to charge it soooooo...

 

[-Vocal-]

Except it takes like 20 frames to charge it soooooo...

Dan, when did you hit 5,000 and why wasn't it in terribad

 

[Nidtendofreak]

As for ZSS's Dsmash...Shuttle Loop anyone? I believe that on most stages MK could just shuttle loop her, and regrab the ledge before she could do anything. :\

 

[etecoon]

Emo about snake/use secondaries

I wanted to know what stingers thought!

you are pretty accurate though :/

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Or or or, MK can just smack you for being stupid enough to start charging a Dsmash.
-.-

Anyone else had some uncontrollable laughter at the sight of this?

 

[solecalibur]

Or or or, MK can just smack you for being stupid enough to start charging a Dsmash.
-.-

orrr get 3rd and 5th at a national, doing that xD

 

[stingers]

I wanted to know what stingers thought!

you are pretty accurate though :/

you want to know what I think?

snake mains are all faggots.

 

[Spelt]

Anyone else had some uncontrollable laughter at the sight of this?

>Implying anything else happens after someone reads a post by SL

 

[da K.I.D.]

>Implying anything else happens after someone reads a post by SL

There is of course the profound sadness.

 

[ShadowLink84]

orrr get 3rd and 5th at a national, doing that xD

This doesn't counter at all what I said.
Derp.

Anyone else had some uncontrollable laughter at the sight of this?

IT TAKES 20 FRAMES TO FRIGGIN CHARGE IT!
Are you honestly saying that the MK user will be so incredibly stupid as to let it hit them?
Down smash 20 frame start up.
That's as SOON as it is released, meaning that if you charge the move you're waiting even longer.

Let us see what other moves are 20 frames.

ZSS: Neutral B, Fsmash.
Yeah, I laughed too.

>Implying anything else happens after someone reads a post by SL

There is of course the profound sadness.

 

[GTZ]

next tier list, Ganon will be going to the top, straight up. I am going to MLG DC and I main Ganon, and I 3 stocked m2k before.......

....
...
..

before I sound too much like a troll, I do wish MK wasn't such an influence on the tier list.. I hope the next Smash Bros. will be a bit more balanced... I wish I could bring some of my lower-tiered mains to justice, but what can you do..?

 

[ShadowLink84]

next tier list, ganon will be going to the top, straight up. I am going to mlg dc and i main ganon, and i 3 stocked m2k before.......

ganondorf is even with mk!

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Okay, so 20 frames. It won't hit you, but you need to avoid it while you're on the ledge, the only way to do this is by a ledgedrop. Now, a timed dsmash beats all your options and is clearly a high risk (get downb spike or whatevs) and you don't want to get hit by it. You can drop to avoid it, but that means we've effectively forced you to drop without getting ourselves into any real danger at all. Buuut we've added +1 to your ledge snap :3

 

[da K.I.D.]

but then mk knows your going to try and down smash and just does (insert broken mk move here) to obliterate you for doing a move thats so slow to come out.

 

[Meru.]

Pointless discussion.

New discussion please.

 

[Spelt]

There is of course the profound sadness.

Oh ****, you're right.

Pointless discussion.

New discussion please.

So where does everyone think Meta Bieber should be placed on the tier list?

 

[etecoon]

you want to know what I think?

snake mains are all faggots.

lmfao, got allied recently?

 

[Spelt]

Withering farmville crops are no laughing matter.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Okay, so 20 frames. It won't hit you, but you need to avoid it while you're on the ledge, the only way to do this is by a ledgedrop. Now, a timed dsmash beats all your options and is clearly a high risk (get downb spike or whatevs) and you don't want to get hit by it. You can drop to avoid it, but that means we've effectively forced you to drop without getting ourselves into any real danger at all. Buuut we've added +1 to your ledge snap :3

Actually that is incorrect, because MK can shuttle loop and hit you away. Or Uair, or tornado.
22+ frames is mournfully slow.


Oh look K.I.D. said the same thing, what happened to me constantly being wrong?

So salty.
Edit: Ban the LGL's and lets see how far things go.

 

[Nefarious B]

Dsmash outranges every move MK has, and is completely disjointed. He won't be hitting her out of it unless she isn't spacing correctly

 

[DanGR]

Dsmash outranges every move MK has, and is completely disjointed. He won't be hitting her out of it unless she isn't spacing correctly

Do you realize how huge the ledge snap range is? It's pretty ridiculous. I really doubt you can space a dsmash on MK close enough to hit him as he drops off the ledge with his invincibility frames wearing out, all while avoiding the massive range on several of MK's attacks if he did decide to jump at ZSS during a dsmash.

And just fyi, I'm speculating.

Edit: Ban the LGL's and lets see how far things go.

And this.

 

[Nefarious B]

I'm not saying that I think dsmash is a practical way to stop perfect planking. But the fact is her dsmash has an excellent hitbox that can both outrange any MK attack and cover the ledge. It's "depth" i guess you'd say, or how low it hits, is constant throughout the move, so being closer or further wouldn't really matter, horizontal range is what matters.

 

[Meru.]

I SAID NEW DISCUSSION PLEASE.

So where does everyone think Meta Bieber should be placed on the tier list?

Just as annoying as MK, but his sing makes my ears bleed.

 

[NickRiddle]

I SAlD NEW DISCUSSION PLEASE.

I REFURSE TO LISTEN TO YOU!
Carry on.
Also, MK can snap to the edge without getting hit by d-smash, but d-smash is 100% safe if we ZSS spaces it right. (While MK is on the edge.)

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dsmash outranges every move MK has, and is completely disjointed. He won't be hitting her out of it unless she isn't spacing correctly

Problem is that he can then simply just avoid the move entirely and hit her afterward as punishment. Sure he may not be hitting her before the move, but he can certainly avoid it and attack after.

It just isn't practical enough for use.

Edit: Ah retcon what I said then. Made an error

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Her downsmash has tricked me a few times. I keep thinking it's just the yellow part but it goes quite a bit in front of that as well.

 

[Nefarious B]

Problem is that he can then simply just avoid the move entirely and hit her afterward as punishment. Sure he may not be hitting her before the move, but he can certainly avoid it and attack after.

It just isn't practical enough for use.

Edit: Ah retcon what I said then. Made an error

If you're going to hit her out of it, you would want to go for the startup. Not only is the cooldown very unobvious (for lack of a better term), meaning that its long lasting hitbox might still be out, risking taking the hit, but it also has smaller cooldown than startup

 

[ShadowLink84]

If you're going to hit her out of it, you would want to go for the startup. Not only is the cooldown very unobvious (for lack of a better term), meaning that its long lasting hitbox might still be out, risking taking the hit, but it also has smaller cooldown than startup

True, and even if one does exchange you can typically get out of the stun effect before ZSS can capitalize. Presuming of course they are in mid percent since the SL's KB is pretty big on startup.