Official BBR Tier List v5

[The Truth!]

Do you mean the MU now would be in wolfs favor or it was back then? Because wolf and pika mains, even the prominent ones, had it even for the longest time. [emphasis for post below] Otherwise you need to explain.

 

[Deleted member]

Before the chaingrab was discovered, it was in Wolf's favor.

Wolf mains have been through explaining this before in this same thread to you. You didn't listen back then, and you're obviously not going to now. It's useless to discuss it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

1) Perfect planking is theory. Saying "no character can deal with it" is incorrect.
2)Assuming you meant this outside "perfect planking"

Tell me how a character can beat it. There is currently more in favor of nobody beating it than somebody beating it.

Also:

Also Im not sure why many of the anti-banners are getting all uppity about metaknight not having even match-ups. Anytime the subject is brought up they get all foamy at the mouth and seem to completely disregard providing any form of argument. Instead you get a response of something similar to "metaknight da bes but fine" as if its self-evident.

Fix'd. Or a way to point out how terrible that argument was, take your pick. No non-debatable evidence either way.

And matches with evenly matched players will naturally go to about 2 minutes left, with both players left at last stock, mid to high %s. I would hope that I wouldn't have to pull out various youtube examples to prove this. If MK has the lead at that point, Fox is simply done.

 

[stingers]

lol wolf mains are so delusional.
maybe thats their thing. peach mains are gay, mk mains are awkward, falco mains are black, ic mains are potheads, rob mains are cool as ****, and wolf mains are delusional. i can buy it.

 

[Deleted member]

lol wolf mains are so delusional.

Yep, you hit the nail on the head.

Way to go.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Lucario mains are furries, and PT mains don't exist.

 

[Laem]

i think wolfs are supposed to be insomniacs/lazy

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lol wolf mains are so delusional.
maybe thats their thing. peach mains are gay, mk mains are awkward, falco mains are black, ic mains are potheads, rob mains are cool as ****, and wolf mains are delusional. i can buy it.

Same guy who thinks ROB should go higher.

GG CP

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

ROB mains aren't that cool.

 

[SuSa]

I thought stingers was a ROB main.

You also forgot Sonic mains are super Sonic fans. Like... larger fans than any other board seems to have for their character...

Snake mains like explosions... BOOM :D

 

[etecoon]

lol wolf mains are so delusional.
maybe thats their thing. peach mains are gay, mk mains are awkward, falco mains are black, ic mains are potheads, rob mains are cool as ****, and wolf mains are delusional. i can buy it.

what do you think about snake's : )

 

[Albert.]

Watching GNes or ADHD it's like "WHY do people still think Snake is #2 when this lil f***er is still around"?

 

[san.]

what do you think about snake's : )

Emo about snake/use secondaries

 

[Meru.]

I thought stingers was a ROB main.

You also forgot Sonic mains are super Sonic fans. Like... larger fans than any other board seems to have for their character...

Snake mains like explosions... BOOM :D

Peach mains love Peach too.

 

[Flayl]

From an outsider it's like "OMG THIS CHARACTER ISN'T EFFORTLESS LIKE IN 2008 FML". The amount of *****ing you see in the snake boards it's like he was a low mid character.

They're pretty much the deinition of tier whores, as soon as it starts to get complicated they rather switch characters than get better.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike mains don't give other people sympathy online; not even other Ike mains. Apparently, we're cool IRL though. *shrugs*

 

[ShadowLink84]

From an outsider it's like "OMG THIS CHARACTER ISN'T EFFORTLESS LIKE IN 2008 FML". The amount of *****ing you see in the snake boards it's like he was a low mid character.

They're pretty much the deinition of tier whores, as soon as it starts to get complicated they rather switch characters than get better.

Sonic mains=SUPER FANS!

Surprisingly enough, they've also been the most realistic in terms of approaching matchups.

 

[Goldenadept]

wolf mains have always been lazy insomniacs.

we're hopelessly optimistic about our character but its not hard to be given all the tools he has that people still enjoy ignoring to this very day.
If they started playing his strengths instead of complaining about his weaknesses wolf could have a very solid following and prove himself, not that he really has too, he has better tourny results than a lot of characters around him, including fox

 

[Flayl]

There aren't enough Bowser mains to be able to form a stereotype about them.

You can't even stereotype "they all only play a bad character" because half os us (more or less) play high tiers on the side.

I guess you could stereotype Bowser mains to be... nonexistant.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, Bowser mains simply don't care, as evident in their MU discussions. :D

 

[Goldenadept]

bowser mains all like turtles

 

[Nidtendofreak]

bowser mains all like turtles

Are they turtly enough for the turtle club?

...

Blast it, I can't remember which movie that line is from...I don't think I even saw the movie, it was in a commercial for it...

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike mains are rugged.

Fix'd.

This is Mario mains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR44oOYjvOw

 

[Goldenadept]

ike mains are all overcompensating and marth mains are hiding something

 

[The Truth!]

Before the chaingrab was discovered, it was in Wolf's favor.

Wolf mains have been through explaining this before in this same thread to you. You didn't listen back then, and you're obviously not going to now. It's useless to discuss it.

I mean, I asked and you said it didnt need explanation; thats just the way things were before the chaingrab. Thatd be fine except that its not true, theres about 3 or 4 threads in the wolf and pika boards from 2008-2009 specifically stating the MU is even. Aside from that Im not going to force you to explain...but I doubt youll have many people convinced that the matchup cant be pretty bad.

Tell me how a character can beat it. There is currently more in favor of nobody beating it than somebody beating it.

The ledge can be stolen. From there on youre left with theoretical arguments one way or another...which isnt the same as saying "more in favor of nobody beating it." And as an aside, strong claims are incredibly hard to prove and unlikely to be true, and I think people dont understand how strong this claim is.

Fix'd. Or a way to point out how terrible that argument was, take your pick. No non-debatable evidence either way.

It does neither but ignore my point. There was a qualifier anyways so the statement might not apply to you, do you assume certain uneven matchups would be even without planking?

Also, stingers posts are hilarious. Pikachu mains are cute . And I wanted to do this earlier:

9)

Peek-at-you

5)

Wareos

Time for some flake-os

 

[stingers]

THOSE ARE NOT FOOD ITEMS

what is wrong with you

 

[Meru.]

...

Come oooon, just look at that Peek-a-chu teddybear.

 

[Goldenadept]

i dont think that without the cg wolf/pika is in wolfs favor but its close, definatly 50/50
pika can't force wolf to approach and wolf has better range/mobility and stage control methods but pika can wreck wolf offstage and rack dmg pretty easily

 

[The Truth!]

;; Oreos are a food item I did blatantly ignore it for pikachu because I liked the name too much. Here was my alternate.

9)Leekachu

 

[stingers]

ACCEPTABLE

Carry on.

 

[Goldenadept]

can someone get a picture of a waffle? for woffles o'donnell?

 

[Spelt]

why has this thread not been locked yet.

 

[Deleted member]

i dont think that without the cg wolf/pika is in wolfs favor but its close, definatly 50/50
pika can't force wolf to approach and wolf has better range/mobility and stage control methods but pika can wreck wolf offstage and rack dmg pretty easily

Really? Play a decent Pikachu and tell them to not use the CG. It's not bad at all...

But whatever, it's due for a MU discussion soon.

 

[Delta-cod]

Are they turtly enough for the turtle club?

...

Blast it, I can't remember which movie that line is from...I don't think I even saw the movie, it was in a commercial for it...

It's from Master of Disguise, IIRC.

 

[Raziek]

It's from Master of Disguise, IIRC.

This is accurate.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario mains are furries, and PT mains don't exist.

Poor Buuda.

 

[Juushichi]

Fix'd.

This is Mario mains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR44oOYjvOw

Hero's got the right idea.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The ledge can be stolen. From there on youre left with theoretical arguments one way or another...which isnt the same as saying "more in favor of nobody beating it." And as an aside, strong claims are incredibly hard to prove and unlikely to be true, and I think people dont understand how strong this claim is.

The ledge can be safely stolen in between the various Uairs can hit you even while you're still on stage (character and MK position dependent obviously)? There is also the small fact that MK could simply tornado his way back up to the ledge, while hitting your character once the invincibility frames are worn off, make it to the other ledge, all while gaining a larger lead through the Nado and wasting more time. Obviously, extreme theory crafting going on here, think of it more of an example of how little this would hamper MK if this did happen than "this will happen if they grab the ledge".

I say it isn't beatable for two reasons. Firstly, the current frame data in combination of MK's truck load of options from the ledge highly, highly suggests that he can't be beaten on the ledge. This isn't something silly like "you can beat Ike by shield camping", this actually has a second point to back it up: people are so afraid of it that they are trying to weaken it with things like LGLs. At this point, I'm willing to say it, along with MK's options, render MK unbeatable on the ledge until I get some data suggesting otherwise. Which of course, I won't get with everyone and their mother using LGLs against the few people who would be willing to try this. *shrugs*

It does neither but ignore my point. There was a qualifier anyways so the statement might not apply to you, do you assume certain uneven matchups would be even without planking?

It doesn't ignore your point, it suggest that there wasn't much of a point in the first place. As for the last bit: depends on the stage list. If you have a very liberal stage list, I believe enough stages disrupt MK's normal aircamping game enough that there could be a neutral MU against him. Not on a conservative stage list though. And seeing how few stage lists I feel are liberal enough to have a shot at this, it might as well be none. It's basically Nova Scotia that has a shot at it. :\

Basically: yes at the extremes of what the smash community will do. No with what typically happens, especially around the MK heavy areas like NE US.

 

[Life]

@Niddo (specifically that last paragraph), perhaps a list should be made of stages that hurt MK's various forms of camping? Norfair obviously (every ledge is covered by a wall or floor at some point, every point on the stage except a strip at the top gets a 1-frame hitbox when the wave hits and most of that is covered by walls, the geysers seem to be centered on the platforms). PTAD since the main transition is small and has no ledges, but MK can still shark incredibly well (although his gimping is reduced due to the damaging floor). Anything else?

Of course, the stagelist isn't supposed to be biased against MK. I'm just thinking aloud.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I made a small one a while ago about the stages that hamper his planking. When it came down to it, only Castle Siege, Brinstar and Delfino disrupt his planking in a conservative stage, and not for that long. Heck, wouldn't surprise me if Delfino was banned somewhere with the way some of those guys think. I've seen attempts at banning Brinstar as well.

If you go from the full recommended list, PTAD doesn't allow basically any, it's beatable at Pirate Ship due to a new attack angle if you have the right character (below him), Norfair messes it up...you'll never stop him from having a good planking stage on his CP. Last time I checked, smashville wasn't going anywhere after all. Instead, you have to go balls out and hope that if you have enough CPs, some character out there can take advantage of it.