Official BBR Tier List v5

[Kinzer]

I like how the only people in this thread who are saying that MK shuts down Fox are the people who don't main either character.

idk it's just rather comical, and I think it should be mentioned.

I don't think I have to be a Ganon main to tell you that he gets pooped on by everybody and their mother.

Now if you want a less extreme example, how about DK vs. D3 with infinite enabled?

 

[Spelt]

MK has an infinite on fox?

Ground breaking find there, kinzer.

 

[Kinzer]

MK has an infinite on fox?

Ground breaking find there, kinzer.

Oh, this is going to be fun.

It will also be my last post in Brawl tactical, now I see where the ad-hominem comes from.

Would you care to point to me where I said that? Where in my last post was I talking about MK Vs. Fox?

Nowhere, that's right. Don't put words in my mouth dammit.

The whole point of my last post was to say that I do not have to play the characters in question to have an idea of how matchups for said characters are played. That's stupid, do I have to have some sort of certificate to prove any of this crap? Even if everything I said was in fact right, you wouldn't believe me just because I'm me?

Just to give you an even bigger idea of how unbiased I'm trying to be, I find the matchup for the two currently discussed amongst the masses (MK Vs. Fox) sort of even (not sure if it's 5:5 even but why not?). It's nice to have an idea of the characters' frame data to have an idea of what's punishable, what isn't, what's risk, what's freebies, and things like that.

 

[Deleted member]

Stop factoring in perfect planking.
If you are gonna bag on the BBR for fox's raise based on "potential" then you certainly shouldnt factor perfect planking as part of a matchup.

Because perfect planking is a lot more theoretical than fox being high C tier.

I like how nobody arguing against fox going even with MK uses any actual arguments.

Saying that falco snake and diddy were thought to be even at one point and are now agreed to be slightly disadvantaged does not mean that fox does not go even with MK. Its not even related at all.

TKD is better at smash theory than like everyone, so stop saying that he "only bases stuff on experience".
>.>


SL's 10 pages of responses have pretty much been "M2k thought G&W was the best character, his opinion doesnt matter, MK beats fox cuz he da bess lolz ban MK"

Kinzer maddd

 

[Spelt]

You are being biased though.
You went from an insane comparison to a slightly less insane comparison.
Comparing a matchup where someone has an infinite on the other, with dedede's insane grab range to a matchup between a top tier and a mid tier with no extremes besides the normal MK shtick is a horrible comparison and you know it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Id just like to say, ever since this topic of fox vs MK came up in this thread, I have actually been taking the knowledge and matchup stuff that people have been saying and Ive been actually beating the MKs around here a lot more than I do with any of my other characters.

Not saying it is even. but I just want to thank everyone that does think that for explaining why and showing me what to do to beat him. since mk has been a bane to my tourney existence for a while now.

lasers are amazing, as it forces mk to approach, and his fall speed allows you to not get ***** for shooting the lasers like you do with falco.
dair kind of obliterates mk, if you can hit with it. but its not that hard, seeing as all you have to do is DI out of a nado, or bait a down smash, or full jump over any of his aerial approaches.
and then you have grab release for a clutch kill moves so you cant even super camp like a B when the mk thinks hes going to die.
and than fox has JUST enough options to get back on stage in almost every situation.

 

[Kinzer]

Kinzer maddd

iMad.

You are being biased though.
You went from an insane comparison to a slightly less insane comparison.
Comparing a matchup where someone has an infinite on the other, with dedede's insane grab range to a matchup between a top tier and a mid tier with no extremes besides the normal MK shtick is a horrible comparison and you know it.

Insane? Are you suggesting that Ganon doesn't get ripped apart by a vast majority of the cast? You're missing the point if that's what you think; all I said was I don't have to play Ganon in-tourney to know that he has a poor moveset. I do that by looking at his frame data, hitboxes, combine the two and compare them with the other fighters. Nowhere did I make any mention of MK or Fox in that first post, because frankly I don't like to bandwagon.

Thank you so much for paying my ticket up there though, even though (I knew that I would) I wond (spelling check please?) up somewhere I did not want to be. I kindly want to get off at this next stop though if you don't mind thank you very much, because:

Wait a second. Maybe I can play the ad-hominem game too and ask you for your credentials. Who do you play? What tournaments have you been to in the last year? where'd you place? What's your opinion (on anything, not just this)?

Thank goodness I originally didn't care about any of that and (tried to) keep it on the debate at hand, but now I realize there's enough of your kind to go around to make me want to change my opinion and now I realize I should withhold my thoughts to myself. I get attacked whether I think Meta Knight wins the MU handily, or I go down the middle path and think that those two have it more even than some.

It will also be my last post in Brawl tactical, now I see where the ad-hominem comes from.

 

[NAKAT]

Id just like to say, ever since this topic of fox vs MK came up in this thread, I have actually been taking the knowledge and matchup stuff that people have been saying and Ive been actually beating the MKs around here a lot more than I do with any of my other characters.

Not saying it is even. but I just want to thank everyone that does think that for explaining why and showing me what to do to beat him. since mk has been a bane to my tourney existence for a while now.

lasers are amazing, as it forces mk to approach, and his fall speed allows you to not get ***** for shooting the lasers like you do with falco.
dair kind of obliterates mk, if you can hit with it. but its not that hard, seeing as all you have to do is DI out of a nado, or bait a down smash, or full jump over any of his aerial approaches.
and then you have grab release for a clutch kill moves so you cant even super camp like a B when the mk thinks hes going to die.
and than fox has JUST enough options to get back on stage in almost every situation.

I honestly do believe that the matchup is even due to experience and the simple fact I am playing it allllllll the time literally.

~ NAKAT ~

 

[Conviction]

Fun fact: Fox can SH Dair over MK's Dtilt and first 2 hits of his Ftilt.

 

[Spelt]

Wait a second. Maybe I can play the ad-hominem game too and ask you for your credentials. Who do you play? What tournaments have you been to in the last year? where'd you place? What's your opinion (on anything, not just this)?

You were already playing the ad hominem game 2 paragraphs ago. Welcome.

 

[theunabletable]

I find it comical that the same thing happened with all of the previous characters who were thought to go "even" with MK.

When will people accept that it simply isn't going to happen? If your character can't deal with MK's perfect planking, you're not even. And no character can deal with it.

Heck, what can Fox do against planking? He's nearly in as bad of shape as Falco.

Okay, sure, with planking, Fox can't beat MK... just like the entire cast...

And here, you know, in the real world, there's an LGL to prevent planking. Regardless of if you agree with the implementation of the LGL, it's still used all the time in practical play.

I'll agree with you that Fox gets shut down by MK with planking, but that's the same for every single character in the game, including himself. And I really couldn't care less if Fox can't beat MKs planking; because no one can. And at every real tournament (atleast the ones I've been to and seen videos from, especially since DMG proved MKs planking was broken), there are limitations that stop planking.

I don't really care if the BBR ruleset doesn't have an LGL, every tournament does, and the actual metagame is based on MK being unable to plank and shut down the entire cast.

And wouldn't Fox do alright against MKs planking compared to most characters, anyways, since he can gain the first % lead a LOT easier than every other character because of his laser? Now be aware that I could be completely wrong on that, that's pure theorycraft. But I'd imagine that with Fox's laser, he'd have a much easier time getting the first lead than anyone else would.

 

[Raziek]

every tournament does

Care to prove this statement? Because it would take me 30 seconds to dis-prove it.

inb4"onlyrelevanttourneys"

 

[theunabletable]

And at every real tournament (atleast the ones I've been to and seen videos from, especially since DMG proved MKs planking was broken), there are limitations that stop planking.

Can I see some major tournaments that didn't have LGLs, or some limitation on MKs planking? Atleast in the past 6 months or so. 'Cause I haven't seen any since DMG came out with that data.

And even if there were a few tournaments that didn't have LGLs, the majority do. I mean, are you really going to say that the current state of the metagame is based on MK perfect planking everyone?

 

[Raziek]

I'll look, but I was mostly nitpicking your wording. It IS worth nothing, however, that this type of knee-jerk reaction to it is probably unwarranted, and more or less cut off our ability to obtain legitimate, tourney-tested data of any kind regarding it though.

edit: Dishearteningly enough, it looks like almost all the major tourneys have a LGL.

God****it Brawl community.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I like how the only people in this thread who are saying that MK shuts down Fox are the people who don't main either character.

idk it's just rather comical, and I think it should be mentioned.

I keep a pocket Fox.
Assumptions make you look like an ***. Just saying. =}

 

[IsmaR]

Pocket characters are obviously close enough to the real thing.

 

[Renki]

Pocket characters are obviously close enough to the real thing.

Atomsk says hi. Just saying. xD

 

[Spelt]

I keep a pocket Fox.
Assumptions make you look like an ***. Just saying. =}

whoever spots the hypocrisy wins an internet.

 

[stingers]

Atomsk says hi. Just saying. xD

like that one time he used his pocket d3 and beat will

...

oh

 

[Renki]

like that one time he used his pocket d3 and beat will

...

oh

Iirc he actually mains D3, and well, same thing happened at Columbus with that specific matchup between other players. Matchup isn't 100:0 last time I checked.

 

[da K.I.D.]

nobody can honestly say what character atomsk mains at this point.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Pocket characters are obviously close enough to the real thing.

It means I know the character enough to feel comfortable using him in tournament.

whoever spots the hypocrisy wins an internet.

you would know right?

Let alone that if its Fox mains and MK mains are both screaming even;even when results dont really support it; does it not say that perhaps there might be bias?

in fact, forget it, im just gonna play MH3

Edit: Atomsk uses all of those characters fairly well, and he did indeed main D3. No one knows who he actually mains anymore.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You can still plank with an LGL in place: It's just not the entire match. Still a major factor, very easily game deciding if the match isn't over with quickly, and if you have nothing you can chuck at a planking MK on stage without putting yourself in a dangerous position, you can't go even. *shrugs* That's reality. Fox has nothing to safely chuck at a planking MK. The only reason he's in a better position than Falco against planking is due to how his reflector works.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You can still plank with an LGL in place: It's just not the entire match.

This is the part people ignore when it comes to LGL's.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This is the part people ignore when it comes to LGL's.

Well, that's a rather stupid thing to do. >_> You can easily plank the last 1/4 of the match with a LGL. And most matches use up around 3/4 of the timer.

Anyone else seeing the issue here?

 

[Spelt]

it takes significant skill to get the lead and keep it for 3/4 of a match anyway.

 

[ShadowLink84]

it takes significant skill to get the lead and keep it for 3/4 of a match anyway.

Don't get hit.
Scrooge.

 

[theunabletable]

You can still plank with an LGL in place: It's just not the entire match.

Not for very long :/

The matchup can still be even if MK has the option to be really safe for two minutes. That MK still has to manage to get a lead, and not die for 6 minutes.

Sure it could happen, and has happened, but his ability to plank for like two minutes doesn't really make much difference. I mean say he can do it for 2 minutes straight, and be unhittable during that time. Look at the Tyrant vs TKD matches, TKD still would've won.

The planking ability COULD make a difference, but, I mean, there's a looooot of time. MK still does have to approach for most of the match because of lasers. It's only late in the match that planking could make a difference.

I mean with the limitations we have, planking seems like a bit of a non-factor most of the time. A lot of conditions have to be met for planking to make a big difference.

lol I decided to finally view one of SL's posts and this is what I see: "Don't get hit.
Scrooge."

So you're telling me that MK can go without getting hit by a laser while scrooging, AND not go over the LGL?

Well, that's a rather stupid thing to do. >_> You can easily plank the last 1/4 of the match with a LGL. And most matches use up around 3/4 of the timer.

Anyone else seeing the issue here?

If MK has gone through 3/4ths of the match, and is still in the lead, then there's already a good chance he'd win anyways without planking. Planking wouldn't make THAT big of a difference. Sure it could, but it's REALLY situational.

 

[Spelt]

Don't get hit.
Scrooge.

the other opponent can use the tactic of "don't get hit" just as well.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You cannot say if TKD would have still won if Tyrant had begun to play campy and start planking.
You can't say anything because it did not happen, making such predictions is impossible since it requires playing differently.
Now as for the last statement, no I am not saying that actually, its kind of funny because the one time you take it at face value, you shouldn't.

I mean that MK should have played defensively, of course he cannot avoid getting hit by the lasers, its impossible, but scrooging makes it more difficult for Fox to deal with MK primarily because Fox does have to place himself at risk if he hopes to gain a lead, or end the match quickly.

The LGL does not solve the issue of planking, it only makes it so that it occurs later, Mk still has the tools to circumvent the LGL completely, and characters who have better tools for dealing with scrooging and planking still have a very tough time dealing with it.

if M2K can pull it off against Diddy who is somewhat better equipped to deal with scrooging and planking, and still get timed out, what makes yo think it is impossible for such a thing to happen to Fox?

As I said, the main reason I believe people are considering it even, is primarily because it is similar to Snake. MK has to play differently when facing Fox, so Fox mains have an easier time fighting MK because the MK user is unused to playing against Fox in an optimal manner.

 

[theunabletable]

Here's why scrooging wouldn't make such a big difference in running the timer.

Unless you have a REALLY big lead, here's what happens:

Say we're on FD (really the platforms of any other stage (except like SV) won't make any difference, so this is just easier to diagram, even if the matchup would never go here):
-------Fox
-----________________------
-------MK scrooging back and forth

MK either has to grab the ledge, or glide under and get onto the stage, with like an SL or something. I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and say that he just plays really safe, and doesn't get hit by anything but lasers. (which Fox could DEFINITELY hit with consistently, every time MK goes for the stage so that he doesn't use a precious ledge grab)

So MK needs a pretty big lead to not lose it when he gets consistently hit by lasers when trying not to grab the ledge.

And if you're assuming that he's going to just grab the ledge every time, he will go through that LGL fairly fast.

On SV, he'll still get hit by lasers when avoiding the ledge.

Oh and for being someone that likes to ask for results when they've already been given, you've shown a painstakingly low amount of videos of MK shutting down Fox by using scrooging and planking with an LGL in place.

**** it, SL made a new post, gimme a bit to respond.

You cannot say if TKD would have still won if Tyrant had begun to play campy and start planking.

Let's use the statistic used before and say that MK can burn off a fourth of the clock with planking with a normal LGL (say 35 since that's used often and probably represents the current metagame the most).


Now look at the TKD vs Tyrant matches. The only match to last over 6 minutes, TKD had a lead at the 6 minute mark. MK can't plank then.

I mean that MK should have played defensively, of course he cannot avoid getting hit by the lasers, its impossible, but scrooging makes it more difficult for Fox to deal with MK primarily because Fox does have to place himself at risk if he hopes to gain a lead, or end the match quickly.

How can you play defensively against someone who starts out forcing you to approach because of the laser?

Sure if you get a big *** lead. But, let's just say that on stage the matchup is 50-50, if you've got a big *** lead in a 50-50 matchup, what does that say about your skill level, or matchup knowledge level, in comparison to your opponent?

Yeah, planking is situationally useful, but it does NOT seem to be a deciding factor at all.

if M2K can pull it off against Diddy who is somewhat better equipped to deal with scrooging and planking, and still get timed out, what makes yo think it is impossible for such a thing to happen to Fox?

I'd say Fox is better at dealing with scrooging, and no one can beat planking, anyways.

And consider that Diddy doesn't practically start out with a lead. And doesn't get guarantee'd damage on, say, SV every time MK doesn't go for the ledge when scrooging.

 

[Goldenadept]

if the MK manages to get a large % lead in the first 4mins of the match then planks for the next 2 using up most if not all of the LGL available then for the rest of the match he can't ever grab the ledge again during the last couple minutes of normal play.

that would be pretty hard to do i think, he couldnt run to the edge, couldnt recover onto the edge, if he got hit and went flying to autosnap the ledge he'd lose... etc

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pikachu's 0 to death on Wolf only works on FD, the match-up is still 4/6 Pikachu's favor.

 

[Browny]

I thought that too but he can substitute the thunder for an f/usmash and dthrow never sends him high enough to hit a platform so it can work on any flat stage?

 

[Shaya]

Pikachu's 0 to death on Wolf only works on FD, the match-up is still 4/6 Pikachu's favor.

It's even at worst.
Or something.
Get @ me supporting a better match up ratio for Wolf.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf just platform camps Pikachu like he does against the other chaingrabbers. Pikachu really has nothing on Wolf except the CG.

It's in Pikachu's favor though. The effect is too drastic.

 

[Deleted member]

I've never been 0-deathed by Pikachu. Wolf can escape when Pikachu goes for the kill.

I've never played the MU on FD though...what makes it worse there?

 

[Browny]

I wonder how many tier list iterations it will take before we hit a point where in the distant future, we would STOP saying 'wow we were ********, what were we thinking' lol.

Also good to see recent results around the place re-affirm my belief that G&W only got knocked up because of one tournament win -_-

 

[The Truth!]

Ah, my error then.

Actually I should have been more clear, lol, I just typed it out too late at night.

Everything else

Discussing it more I think a large part of the disagreement comes from how each person is evaluating MUs moreso than the MU itself, more specifically whether or not MUs are static or dynamic. This sort of leads back to my other comment.

The game itself doesnt change, however the metagame does. It leads to an interesting argument about objectivity and its existence/importance/uses, but thats an argument for a different time.

As I said its probably a longer discussion for elsewhere (or maybe Im just to lazy to discuss it, lol). But essentially, those evaluating based on dynamic MUs believe that in the past MU's were one way, and have since changed. But they werent incorrect back then, they just changed and are different from now. This way its acceptable for pros and other people to change their opinion.

Those arguing static MUs on the other hand would say that MUs in the past may have been one way, but since then we've learned more and realized that the MUs we have now are more correct, and those in the past were wrong.

Technically both methods of evaluation are correct, but which is more important/useful is what must be determined. Determining this is where the real disagreement lies, and why most of the current debate on the MU ratio hasnt gone anywhere (the debate would require a common form of evaluation, which doesnt exist now).

It's even at worst.
Or something.
Get @ me supporting a better match up ratio for Wolf.

lmao! I really hope youre not serious. I have no idea why youve been so adamant about this subject, but Ive seen no reasoning for it and excluding that hardly qualify to make such judgements. The matchup was even before the 0-death was discovered. Theres little to back up the claim that "pika has nothing aside from the cg". Every character that can be chaingrabbed says this, it makes me wonder if they think pikachu has 30:70 MUs with the rest of the cast he cant cg.

Anyways, the 0-death is new and legit. Its not just for FD, and it also works on Shiek, Fox, and Captain Falcon (potentially Falco but thats looking less likely). These MU's are at least 65:35 or more likely worse.

I find it comical that the same thing happened with all of the previous characters who were thought to go "even" with MK.

When will people accept that it simply isn't going to happen? If your character can't deal with MK's perfect planking, you're not even. And no character can deal with it.

Heck, what can Fox do against planking? He's nearly in as bad of shape as Falco.

1) Perfect planking is theory. Saying "no character can deal with it" is incorrect.
2)Assuming you meant this outside "perfect planking"

Also Im not sure why many of the pro-banners are getting all uppity about metaknight currently or previously having had even match-ups. Anytime the subject is brought up they get all foamy at the mouth and seem to completely disregard providing any form of argument. Instead you get a response of something similar to "metaknight da bes" as if its self-evident.

*not an argument against lgls.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually the MU was in Wolf's favor, "The Truth".