Official BBR Tier List v5

[Hylian]

snakes and ice climbers and falcos and diddys counterpick for their bad stages as well.

hylian even said he was going back to G&W completely for MLG because the stagelist ***** ICs.

Nah, I'm going pretty much all IC's. I haven't lost to a MK in forever lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

stuff

Ad hominem.
That is all it is dude.

Seriously, 6 months from now I'll make sure to bring up your quote.


By the way, ask for their opinion which you are so keen to mention.

Why does Fox lose to MK? MK is better.
Considering how the community loves tl;dr thats what you're getting from me

@Raziek: Don't bother, the smash community is flat out laughable, I honestly don't know why I waste my time anymore.
I am going to play guilty gear, the community isnt ******** enough to think Chipp>potemkin which is attractive.

heres my confusion.

The guy IN the BBR, the one who helping to make the tierlist, is bashing the tierlist that he himself helped to make, while everyone else (for the sake of the example, Ill just say spelt) tries to defend the tierlist that they cant really affect in any way.

Doesnt help that Spelt is right, either.

but is this backwards to anybody else besides me?

*facedesk*
The tierlist is made from a voting system.
It is why DM and I disagree with his placement since in our version of the tierlist, Fox was lower.

In fact, I had Fox as 20 in the tierlist I believe.
BBR members disagree, shocking revelation I know. Of course you have me on ignore while I am being so magnanimous as to even bother responding.

Well, in all fairness. I think I was the only one to actually try playing fox and take the stuff that DMG said about him seriously, and I dont think he was too far off base.

Not to mention SL is a huge **** and Im just used to him being constantly wrong.

also, how are people blinded by BBR hate, when they are all DEFENDING the tier list decision. the only person I would think that that statement applys to is SL

Someone is still salty about getting their *** handed to them at Apex.
As I said, at least I am kind enough to view everyone's post, not talk smack about them and have them on ignore.

 

[ShadowLink84]

double post

 

[StarLight]

@Raziek: Don't bother, the smash community is flat out laughable, I honestly don't know why I waste my time anymore.

Polite inquiry: Then why don't you leave?

 

[theunabletable]

Ad hominem.
That is all it is dude.

Seriously, 6 months from now I'll make sure to bring up your quote.


By the way, ask for their opinion which you are so keen to mention.

Why does Fox lose to MK? MK is better.
Considering how the community loves tl;dr thats what you're getting from me

Holy ****. This is your response? Really?

So what if I called you out on not knowing the matchup better than TKD 'cause you're a Sonic main? That's the ONLY part of my post that could be construed as Ad Hominem, and that was no god **** where NEAR most of my post.

Fine, in 6 months do so. Not like we're talking about the current metagame or anything.


And it's not like I even have much more I can possibly say. Yeah, there was some ad hominem in there, but no way in hell was that the whole thing. And you disregard the entire thing just because I pointed out that maybe TKD knows more than a Sonic main on the matchup? It's not like you're giving me many more things I can say other than ad hominem. I mean this most recent reply is basically "Oh, you made a vague insult on my knowledge for a matchup for two characters that I don't play, so I'm going to ignore everything you said that might indicate that you're right. And then when you ask a question requesting proof for my statements, I'll make a short statement that doesn't prove ****!"

Literally. That is ALL your post was.

"Ad hominem.
That is all it is dude."

This statement is not only wrong, but ridiculous in that you'd disregard my entire post over a vague insult on how much you know about a matchup for two characters you don't play.

"Seriously, 6 months from now I'll make sure to bring up your quote."

Completely and utterly irrelevant to our discussion pertaining to the CURRENT metagame. But, fine, if someone manages to prove that Fox gets shut down by MK, then, yeah, right now I'd be wrong. I don't see how saying that helps your case about the current metagame in the least.

"By the way, ask for their opinion which you are so keen to mention."

Not completely sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that TKD and M2K think that MK shuts down Fox?

"Why does Fox lose to MK? MK is better."

Why does Pikachu lose to Falco? Falco is better. No, I'm not going to prove it. I know more about this matchup than ESAM and DEHF do, clearly, and I say that Falco beats Pika because Falco is a better character.

"Considering how the community loves tl;dr thats what you're getting from me"

Pointless and adds nothing to a post that already pretty much contains nothing.

So far, I haven't really seen ANY reason to think that MK shuts down Fox. I've seen people make statements about theorycraft, but not even any ACTUAL theorycraft stating why MK should shut down Fox!

I mean, christ, I'm not so biased so as not to admit when I'm wrong. I may be wrong. But so far, nothing that anyone has said has given me any reason to think so.

MK beats Fox because MK is a better character is a completely bull**** statement. If you're gonna theorycraft and place your opinions over the players who know the matchups best, atleast have some ACTUAL theorycraft in your posts. Not unevidenced statements that can be made about every matchup ever.

 

[The Truth!]

SL84 you need to tone down the arrogance if you expect anyone else to bother listening to you in a serious way. Its one thing to give your opinion, but to hold your own word as solid gold makes listening to or arguing with you unproductive and unbearable to read or participate in.

And asking for qualifications is not an ad hominem. It's a common mistake that any time credentials are requested or questioned that it can be tossed aside as a personal attack. In fact its a legitimate tool in logic that you need to address, or concede the point.

Also Im not sure why many of the pro-banners are getting all uppity about metaknight currently or previously having had even match-ups. Anytime the subject is brought up they get all foamy at the mouth and seem to completely disregard providing any form of argument, let alone a logical one. Instead you get a response of something similar to "metaknight da bes" as if its self-evident.

Its been said several times already, but let me go ahead and try again. A lot of the characters being listed at one point in time did have an even matchup with metaknight. Saying that they have a disadvantaged matchup now doesnt change the fact that in the past it wasnt. On some of them its arguably still even. Aside from that, the metagame changes, the sooner yall understand this the easier itll be to communicate with everyone.

 

[Browny]

lmao MK shuts down fox for the same reasons he shuts down every character.

The only reason you ever hit MK (without a projectile) was because the MK messed up
his attacks will beat yours 100% of the time
you can never pressure mk into a situation where hes left with 1 option

this is so ******** lol. If fox went even with MK, a dozen other characters who are better than fox in almost every single aspect would beat him. Theyre all heavier, have better TRUE combos, more range, better projectiles, safer on block, better recovery, better grabs/throws, safer options on landing, better able to deal with planking and just about everything. To legitimately beat MK you are going to need almost all of the above to be BETTER than MK's.

I might strongly disagree with SL on just about everything he says but you cant ignore the part where MK has the best everything, and fox isnt even close. Having better overall mobility and a quick KO move doesnt make up for the dozens of other facets of the game that MK ***** fox brutally in.

 

[The Truth!]

^lol hasty generalizations. That aside, I thought you were the one who loathed any form of theorycraft bros?

 

[C~Dog]

Does Downy even play the game anymore?

 

[Laem]

read some stuff
and gonna repeat something i've said/implied earlier
ShadowLink84 is a moron
unable table is legit (right now, at least)
oh and here's one for ya browny
Sheik beats falco because sheik has better options..... wait what?
Ike goes even with ice climbers because they have equally good options... oh word?
Dedede goes even with snake because they have equally good options.....que?

now i hope you can put this I oh so hope not new info to use in the currently debated mu(this has already been done, see what i believe phiney sort of quoted from pierce
if not
ima troll america, which i don't do that to begin with much due to my own decency

and +rep to stingers for doodoo kone, why is every1 ignoring that post xD

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike goes even with ice climbers because they have equally good options... oh word?

But...we do go even with them... >_> Jab screws them up so badly it's not even funny. We can in fact separate them with grab to pummel to back throw(barely, but it does work. Pummel doesn't allow Nana to punish right away, and Bthrow has just enough ISAS frames that Nana can't punish us after the pummel in time when you consider the distance Ike moves as well) Fair can just hit through Blizzard Wall at the right spot, with Counter being another risky but doable way to get through Blizzard Wall. And of course, we completely beat them in the air, and if Nana gets separated it's an easy Fsmash KO.

On the other hand, if we screw up while they are on the ground, we're getting grabbed. And while they're projectiles by themselves aren't threatening at all, when you consider them along with the grab, it can be risky getting in to jab.

 

[Laem]

my 3 examples are supposed to be correct

 

[Conviction]

But...we do go even with them... >_> Jab screws them up so badly it's not even funny. We can in fact separate them with grab to pummel to back throw(barely, but it does work. Pummel doesn't allow Nana to punish right away, and Bthrow has just enough ISAS frames that Nana can't punish us after the pummel in time when you consider the distance Ike moves as well) Fair can just hit through Blizzard Wall at the right spot, with Counter being another risky but doable way to get through Blizzard Wall. And of course, we completely beat them in the air, and if Nana gets separated it's an easy Fsmash KO.

On the other hand, if we screw up while they are on the ground, we're getting grabbed. And while they're projectiles by themselves aren't threatening at all, when you consider them along with the grab, it can be risky getting in to jab.

they were rhetorical questions homie XD

He knew they went even.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm starting to see this is less about Fox vs Metaknight and more about Shadowlink getting trolled.

 

[Spelt]

browny your post is basically saying there's no way in hell a mid tier character could have an even matchup with a high/top tier.
i don't even need to explain why this is ******** logic.

 

[Chuee]

The only reason you ever hit MK (without a projectile) was because the MK messed up Hey guess what, every time someone takes damage in this game is because messed up
his attacks will beat yours 100% of the time
you can never pressure mk into a situation where hes left with 1 option

this is so ******** lol. If fox went even with MK, a dozen other characters who are better than fox in almost every single aspect would beat him.
No, the reason Fox does so well against MK is because pretty much all of Fox's biggest weakness' happen to be things MK can't take advantage of. Bad approach game? MK has no projectile and Fox does so he can't force Fox into approaching unless he has a stock lead. Fast FF? The only thing MK can do to Fox to take advantage of that is Uairs at low %, which isn't anything special. Oh, and on top of that MK is light so Fox can kill him incredibly early. Fox having a good MU vs MK is not Fox being a good character, but more of Fox being lucky with how he was made.
Theyre all heavier,
The heavier they are, the more they get ***** by nado.
have better TRUE combos,
Why would you need true combo's when you have a laser that you can shoot 3 times in a SH, deals 3 damage, and an Usmash that kills MK at around 90%?
more range,
true
better projectiles,
Fox has one of the best projectiles in the game.
safer on block,
ok
better recovery,
doesn't matter how good your recovery is as long as you can make it back onstage while taking as little damage as possible, Fox can recover against MK.

better grabs/throws,
Yeah, but Fox's throws give him time to retreat and camp MK.
safer options on landing,
Fox has really good landing tools.
better able to deal with planking
LGLs
and just about everything. To legitimately beat MK you are going to need almost all of the above to be BETTER than MK's.
Yeah, which is why he doesn't beat MK.

I might strongly disagree with SL on just about everything he says but you cant ignore the part where MK has the best everything, and fox isnt even close. Having better overall mobility and a quick KO move doesnt make up for the dozens of other facets of the game that MK ***** fox brutally in.

10character

 

[da K.I.D.]

Except... this never happened lmao. Take note of the plurals you used in Fox's and MK's, thats not accurate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sn3z-U5zWA&feature=related
1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP9vxGWX3dI
2.

2 = plural.

Get your facts straight before you talk like you know something.

 

[Yikarur]

Flame World Forum :3

 

[da K.I.D.]

Also, like I said about 15 pages ago. if yall would just put SL84 on ignore like I did about a year ago, your SWF experience would improve tremendously.

 

[4Biddin]

lmao MK shuts down fox for the same reasons he shuts down every character.

The only reason you ever hit MK (without a projectile) was because the MK messed up
his attacks will beat yours 100% of the time
you can never pressure mk into a situation where hes left with 1 option

this is so ******** lol. If fox went even with MK, a dozen other characters who are better than fox in almost every single aspect would beat him. Theyre all heavier, have better TRUE combos, more range, better projectiles, safer on block, better recovery, better grabs/throws, safer options on landing, better able to deal with planking and just about everything. To legitimately beat MK you are going to need almost all of the above to be BETTER than MK's.

I might strongly disagree with SL on just about everything he says but you cant ignore the part where MK has the best everything, and fox isnt even close. Having better overall mobility and a quick KO move doesnt make up for the dozens of other facets of the game that MK ***** fox brutally in.

Lol I used to think the same thing and I'm a fox main

If fox stays grounded then mk has a hard time getting any good attacks off. And while fox is using lazers to chip at his stock dair can be thrown in as a exceptional punish due to the number of mix up open after the attack

Fox out lives MK on each stock also if fox stay towards the center of the stage he is not dieing anytime soon while fox can kill MK ANYWHERE with u smash

I used to think it wasn't 50-50 too until I started playin mks regually

Fox falls fast to help slow down juggles and pops out nado and can dair actually beats glide attack and nado sometimes

 

[The_Altrox]

I don't know if this has been posted before, but my friend made an argument against the Zelda, Sheik, Zelda/Sheik placing.

he says that they might as well have one listing as Zelda/Sheik and erase the other two, because even though Zelda alone isn't good enough tier wise, she should automatically be on Shieks level of tier because of the ability to change. Essentially, his argument is even if Zelda isn't plagued by stamina, not changing into sheik at the right times is like not utilizing a characters useful moves such as Falco not using his lasers or Snake not using his grenades. You don't have to use those aspects but they really hinder a player, as Zelda and Sheik soloists do by not using the other half since both of the other halves are even lower on the list than the combined Zelda/Sheik.
argument against this?

 

[SuSa]

The point is that they can be played seperately. They are not forced to change like PT is. This is why PT is one listing, while Sheik and Zelda are two.

Spoiler

Also see Melee....Sheik and Zelda had an even further gap between the two

 

[The_Altrox]

The point is that they can be played seperately. They are not forced to change like PT is. This is why PT is one listing, while Sheik and Zelda are two.

Spoiler

Also see Melee....Sheik and Zelda had an even further gap between the two

Brought this up too to him. However, he says the stamina thing is irrelevant. You see, if you solo Zelda and don't use Shiek, you aren't using part of your character, which is under similar grounds as not using certain moves (Flacos lasers, ec), even if they are effective. and the fact that Z/S is higher than the halves doesn't help, as it makes it look like only the truly successful players of this split character are using both halves of the whole rather than cutting half of the options out.

 

[SuSa]

The thing is though, Down-B isn't so much a move as a character swap. It can't be compared to Falco's laser because Falco's laser doesn't suddenly change your entire moveset.

Using Falco's laser doesn't give you a new jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, nair, uair, dair, fair, bair, side-B, up-B, and neutral-B along with a slightly different airdodge, roll, running speed, air mobility, etc.

It - in fact - changes your entire character in a sense.

Also, I'm sure there would be a Samus/Zamus combo if the transformation wasn't a 1 time thing.

The only reason the combination is above the individuals is because Zelda does help Sheik's KO game a bit and covers a few matchups and the ability to switch is present but it's kind of having a mid-game secondary tbh...

 

[The_Altrox]

The thing is though, Down-B isn't so much a move as a character swap. It can't be compared to Falco's laser because Falco's laser doesn't suddenly change your entire moveset.

Using Falco's laser doesn't give you a new jab, ftilt, utilt, dtilt, fsmash, dsmash, usmash, nair, uair, dair, fair, bair, side-B, up-B, and neutral-B along with a slightly different airdodge, roll, running speed, air mobility, etc.

It - in fact - changes your entire character in a sense.

The only reason the combination is above the individuals is because Zelda does help Sheik's KO game a bit and covers a few matchups and the ability to switch is present but it's kind of having a mid-game secondary tbh...

while Falco's move doesn't change his set, it's still a move that any given player can choose not to use (I wouldn't reccomend it, but...) But at the same time, you have PT who changes movesets at every change. Sure, you could in theory try to just use Squirtle, but it's stupid to try.
while Z/S don't have stamina, even with an entire character change, it's still a viable swap (unlike Samus and all that ****) that can be done on opportunity, allowing anybody to use both characters, and not doing so is like not using moves. Zelda helps Shiek's kill game, but Sheik helps the early game. You could just use one, but then you aren't utilizing all of the characters options and whether or not you choose to do so if a simple switch can remedy the problem.

yeah, I told him to post this argument himself, but he's been trolled out of smashboards so much that he doesn't come here anymore. then again, he thinks Temple should be legal, but this idea makes slightly more sense. I'm on the fence though

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm on the side of "Why care, really?"

I mean, is it really that important?

 

[SuSa]

while Falco's move doesn't change his set, it's still a move that any given player can choose not to use (I wouldn't reccomend it, but...) But at the same time, you have PT who changes movesets at every change. Sure, you could in theory try to just use Squirtle, but it's stupid to try.
while Z/S don't have stamina, even with an entire character change, it's still a viable swap (unlike Samus and all that ****) that can be done on opportunity, allowing anybody to use both characters, and not doing so is like not using moves. Zelda helps Shiek's kill game, but Sheik helps the early game. You could just use one, but then you aren't utilizing all of the characters options and whether or not you choose to do so if a simple switch can remedy the problem.

yeah, I told him to post this argument himself, but he's been trolled out of smashboards so much that he doesn't come here anymore. then again, he thinks Temple should be legal, but this idea makes slightly more sense. I'm on the fence though

Given the argument, it's not stupid to try to use only Squirtle.. but fatigue and forced switch make this harder. But you could switch twice every time you die as him... if you don't mind starting off with a huge handicap.

Transformation takes a random amount of time, hell sometimes it can get you killed when it shouldn't have because it takes 3 times longer to load than it should have. It's a huge risk to transform, so many simply don't. They start off the one which does the better job.

Most Zelda's don't seem to use Sheik (otherwise they'd be Sheik mains...) and Sheik mains only switch to Zelda to land a KO move and switch back (usually...) so the arguments pretty moot about using both characters IMO given what people do with them...

 

[stingers]

 

[IsmaR]

 

[Doc King]

while Falco's move doesn't change his set, it's still a move that any given player can choose not to use (I wouldn't reccomend it, but...) But at the same time, you have PT who changes movesets at every change. Sure, you could in theory try to just use Squirtle, but it's stupid to try.
while Z/S don't have stamina, even with an entire character change, it's still a viable swap (unlike Samus and all that ****) that can be done on opportunity, allowing anybody to use both characters, and not doing so is like not using moves. Zelda helps Shiek's kill game, but Sheik helps the early game. You could just use one, but then you aren't utilizing all of the characters options and whether or not you choose to do so if a simple switch can remedy the problem.

yeah, I told him to post this argument himself, but he's been trolled out of smashboards so much that he doesn't come here anymore. then again, he thinks Temple should be legal, but this idea makes slightly more sense. I'm on the fence though

Temple should definately not be tourney legal, its too large so you could just run and shoot lazers or camp like an idiot. Also when you switch to someone, the opponent has a free shot, so you have to be careful about doing that.

Now for the Tier list, I think that should be in the top of low tier.

 

[Browny]

browny your post is basically saying there's no way in hell a mid tier character could have an even matchup with a high/top tier.
i don't even need to explain why this is ******** logic.

Actually its an extension from what ripple was saying about how MK used to go even with snake/diddy/falco/pika/bowser/yoshi/IC/squirtle/wario/sheik/fox/dk/G&W [insert flavour of the month character here].

After all the hype dies down and MK mains quickly learn how to shut down what few options every other character has, it ends up another favourable MU to him. lol for how long did people say snake was even and now apparently they find it near impossible to beat him.

I dont think that at all about mid tier characters coz as someone said, ike going even with IC's is feabile because he beats them in a lot of aspects with range, weight and KO power with a devastatingly powerful and fast CQC game and an insane punish if nana gets separated against him.

---

Also interesting to note, im pretty sure marths have done MUCH more against top MK's over brawls entire lifespan, but good luck finiding anyone who says that MU is even lol.

 

[The Truth!]

Also Im not sure why many of the pro-banners are getting all uppity about metaknight currently or previously having had even match-ups. Anytime the subject is brought up they get all foamy at the mouth and seem to completely disregard providing any form of argument, let alone a logical one. Instead you get a response of something similar to "metaknight da bes" as if its self-evident.

Restating a generalizations doesnt make it true.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

i think the best part of this is pic is its tko looooooool

 

[PMC66]

someone worse than Link other than Ganondorf BBR are idiots (Zelda below Link) first off Zelda at least has some MU's in her favor like Ice Climbers,Yoshi Link has 0 other than Ganon..

 

[Spelt]

zelda vs ice climbers isn't in her favor...

 

[Delta-cod]

someone worse than Link other than Ganondorf BBR are idiots (Zelda below Link) first off Zelda at least has some MU's in her favor like Ice Climbers,Yoshi Link has 0 other than Ganon..

LOL @ Yoshi having no good MUs.

 

[Chuee]

Its ok Deltacad I have people say Lucas is 3rd worst in the game.

 

[Delta-cod]

They're so far off.

He's the absolute worst.

 

[Chuee]

Yeah, he's possibly the worst.

In terms of age.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Aren't the Ice Climbers like three years old each?