deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
So I heard Spelt is taking SL's place in the BBR.
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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Hive
Smash Lord
4:6 meaning... what exactly? MU at the very highest levels? MUs for high levels adjusting for some degree of extremity (and if so how much)? MUs against average mks? or is it just a fuzzy meaing that implies that its "sort of even?" And in how many games is it determined or is it a indication of success in a standard set? Matchup comparability and formulas have been very sketchy lately. I find it hard to believe though that there are quite a few characters against mk are winning at least 40% of the time or more, when top mks are still winning about 50+% of national tournaments from wins over these players.
I'm not just saying this to make a point about mk, I'm sincerely curious about how matchup systems are formulated. It seems to me if they actually reflected high level win percentages there would be a larger abundance of 100-0 advantages/disadvantages.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Quite a few characters without a MU worse than 4:6? Tell me about all of them.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
heres my confusion.
The guy IN the BBR, the one who helping to make the tierlist, is bashing the tierlist that he himself helped to make, while everyone else (for the sake of the example, Ill just say spelt) tries to defend the tierlist that they cant really affect in any way.
Doesnt help that Spelt is right, either.
but is this backwards to anybody else besides me?
The guy IN the BBR, the one who helping to make the tierlist, is bashing the tierlist that he himself helped to make, while everyone else (for the sake of the example, Ill just say spelt) tries to defend the tierlist that they cant really affect in any way.
Doesnt help that Spelt is right, either.
but is this backwards to anybody else besides me?
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
I just read the whole thing, and I don't see why you guys are all siding with Spelt.
ShadowLink PROVED the double standard on EVERY ARGUMENT SPELT HAD.
You guys are too blinded by BBR Hate and the wind in your eyes from riding the hype train to actually see that Spelt lost the argument.
ShadowLink PROVED the double standard on EVERY ARGUMENT SPELT HAD.
You guys are too blinded by BBR Hate and the wind in your eyes from riding the hype train to actually see that Spelt lost the argument.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Well, in all fairness. I think I was the only one to actually try playing fox and take the stuff that DMG said about him seriously, and I dont think he was too far off base.
Not to mention SL is a huge **** and Im just used to him being constantly wrong.
also, how are people blinded by BBR hate, when they are all DEFENDING the tier list decision. the only person I would think that that statement applys to is SL
Not to mention SL is a huge **** and Im just used to him being constantly wrong.
also, how are people blinded by BBR hate, when they are all DEFENDING the tier list decision. the only person I would think that that statement applys to is SL
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Except the Tier List is NEVER completely agreed upon by every member.
Evidently a lot of people (DMG, SL, just to name a few) think Fox was far too high, but evidently there were enough people riding the hype train to get him moved up.
I don't understand where the complete reversal in the GENERAL public's opinion came from, since everyone went. "AMAGAD FAWKS WTF" as soon as this list came out, now you're all defending a placement you disagreed with?
Personally, I don't think Fox should be as high as he is, but I also feel he shouldn't be as low as he WAS. I think a 2 spot rise would have been somewhat justified, but any more than that is too much, IMO.
Evidently a lot of people (DMG, SL, just to name a few) think Fox was far too high, but evidently there were enough people riding the hype train to get him moved up.
I don't understand where the complete reversal in the GENERAL public's opinion came from, since everyone went. "AMAGAD FAWKS WTF" as soon as this list came out, now you're all defending a placement you disagreed with?
Personally, I don't think Fox should be as high as he is, but I also feel he shouldn't be as low as he WAS. I think a 2 spot rise would have been somewhat justified, but any more than that is too much, IMO.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Not saying that I agree with Fox going up, but SL didn't really do any proving of double standards. He proved that other mains of characters that no one thinks goes even with MK have beaten notable MK mains.
His pointing out the double standard would be legit if it were ACTUALLY a double standard. If Fox was a character who had beaten MK mains (which he's done), and every single top player thinks he's at a disadvantage with MK, then he'd be right in comparing it to Sonic. But, see, Fox is a character who has beaten good MK mains, and MK mains and top Fox mains ALIKE both say that the matchup is close to even.
So the **** what if people said the same thing for Diddy and Falco? What the **** does a Sonic main know more about the matchup than the best Fox in the continent, and the best MK in the continent?
I'm sorry, but I'm taking TKD's and M2K's opinions (which they've backed up, and TKD has shown practically) over some random Sonic player. That's not to say that I'd take JUST their opinion. But that isn't to say that I'd take JUST tournament results, either. Sonic obviously doesn't go even with MK, and no one thinks that, even though some Sonic mains have done well against good MKs. Fox, though, has done well against good MKs, AND top players for BOTH mains think that the matchup is even.
That alone makes the situations too different to compare. And I don't see how a ****ing Sonic main could know more about the matchup than TKD.
There's a very clear difference between Sonic beating top MKs, and no one, including the top MKs, and the top Sonics, thinking that the matchup is even, and Fox's beating top MKs, and the best players of both characters (one of which knows the matchup inside and out) saying that the matchup is close to even.
There's no double standard there. Of course Fox's beating MKs isn't enough to prove that the matchup is close to even. But top players from both characters saying that it's even, and Fox's beating MKs is enough. Which is enough to distinguish it from your comparison to Sonic. It's a completely different situation.
SL was just being ridiculous. Completely avoiding most of Spelt's points, and it's incredibly evident, what with the fact that he never responded to several of Spelt's points (the Pikachu comparison to Falco, the constant talking about how Fox does badly against other characters when Spelt made it clear multiple times that that was irrelevant to how he did vs MK, etc).
What MORE could you want?! What more could possibly prove to you that the matchup is close to even? Tournament results by themselves don't prove anything, clearly. And people's opinions on the matchup don't prove anything, clearly. But when put together, what more evidence is even really possible?
What more could you ask for other than the best players from both characters agreeing that the matchup is atleast even, and Fox's beating really good MKs? Should we just abandon any idea that Fox vs MK is even just because some ****ing Sonic main thinks that MK mains are lazy? Despite the fact that the FOX main, too, thinks that the matchup is close to even atleast? How could you even conceivably know more about the matchup than TKD?
Sure, maybe if you were a Fox main, and had spent as much time on the matchup as TKD has, but frankly, this is JUST you, a Sonic main who mains neither character, theorycrafting that MK shuts down Fox, and that the best players of both characters (and many other players, too) are WRONG about their own characters, and that tournament results don't prove anything at all, even when combined with top player's opinions.
I don't take everything that TKD or M2K mentions as fact. But, ****, I can't deny something when BOTH tournament results AND the opinions of the best players of the characters we're talking about agree that the matchup is around even.
Of course they're sometimes wrong, but the best MK player, and the best Fox player (who knows the matchup really well from both sides, considering he's a very good player of both characters) agree on the matchup being atleast even, and you have tournament results indicating that it's even, theorycrafting doesn't mean ****.
And why does MK shut down Fox, anyways? If you know the matchup better than MK mains do, can't you just tell us to prove your point? And don't bring up some irrelevant **** like "prove why Ganon is shut down by ICs". Solid reasoning, please.
His pointing out the double standard would be legit if it were ACTUALLY a double standard. If Fox was a character who had beaten MK mains (which he's done), and every single top player thinks he's at a disadvantage with MK, then he'd be right in comparing it to Sonic. But, see, Fox is a character who has beaten good MK mains, and MK mains and top Fox mains ALIKE both say that the matchup is close to even.
So the **** what if people said the same thing for Diddy and Falco? What the **** does a Sonic main know more about the matchup than the best Fox in the continent, and the best MK in the continent?
I'm sorry, but I'm taking TKD's and M2K's opinions (which they've backed up, and TKD has shown practically) over some random Sonic player. That's not to say that I'd take JUST their opinion. But that isn't to say that I'd take JUST tournament results, either. Sonic obviously doesn't go even with MK, and no one thinks that, even though some Sonic mains have done well against good MKs. Fox, though, has done well against good MKs, AND top players for BOTH mains think that the matchup is even.
That alone makes the situations too different to compare. And I don't see how a ****ing Sonic main could know more about the matchup than TKD.
There's a very clear difference between Sonic beating top MKs, and no one, including the top MKs, and the top Sonics, thinking that the matchup is even, and Fox's beating top MKs, and the best players of both characters (one of which knows the matchup inside and out) saying that the matchup is close to even.
There's no double standard there. Of course Fox's beating MKs isn't enough to prove that the matchup is close to even. But top players from both characters saying that it's even, and Fox's beating MKs is enough. Which is enough to distinguish it from your comparison to Sonic. It's a completely different situation.
SL was just being ridiculous. Completely avoiding most of Spelt's points, and it's incredibly evident, what with the fact that he never responded to several of Spelt's points (the Pikachu comparison to Falco, the constant talking about how Fox does badly against other characters when Spelt made it clear multiple times that that was irrelevant to how he did vs MK, etc).
What MORE could you want?! What more could possibly prove to you that the matchup is close to even? Tournament results by themselves don't prove anything, clearly. And people's opinions on the matchup don't prove anything, clearly. But when put together, what more evidence is even really possible?
What more could you ask for other than the best players from both characters agreeing that the matchup is atleast even, and Fox's beating really good MKs? Should we just abandon any idea that Fox vs MK is even just because some ****ing Sonic main thinks that MK mains are lazy? Despite the fact that the FOX main, too, thinks that the matchup is close to even atleast? How could you even conceivably know more about the matchup than TKD?
Sure, maybe if you were a Fox main, and had spent as much time on the matchup as TKD has, but frankly, this is JUST you, a Sonic main who mains neither character, theorycrafting that MK shuts down Fox, and that the best players of both characters (and many other players, too) are WRONG about their own characters, and that tournament results don't prove anything at all, even when combined with top player's opinions.
I don't take everything that TKD or M2K mentions as fact. But, ****, I can't deny something when BOTH tournament results AND the opinions of the best players of the characters we're talking about agree that the matchup is around even.
Of course they're sometimes wrong, but the best MK player, and the best Fox player (who knows the matchup really well from both sides, considering he's a very good player of both characters) agree on the matchup being atleast even, and you have tournament results indicating that it's even, theorycrafting doesn't mean ****.
And why does MK shut down Fox, anyways? If you know the matchup better than MK mains do, can't you just tell us to prove your point? And don't bring up some irrelevant **** like "prove why Ganon is shut down by ICs". Solid reasoning, please.
Browny
Smash Hater
Except... this never happened lmao. Take note of the plurals you used in Fox's and MK's, thats not accurate
Fox is too slow!
Ripple
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I'm automatically inclined to not believe anything theunabletable says because he said "I agree with M2K's opinion".
if you had ANY idea what you were talking about you would know the M2K is know for being extremely radical in his matchup theory. he thought diddy vs. MK was diddy advantage! snake at one point too. AND m2k himself said that olimar was the best character in the game a little bit over a year ago.
if you see him work his magic in melee you'd understand that he can't theory worth ****
if you had ANY idea what you were talking about you would know the M2K is know for being extremely radical in his matchup theory. he thought diddy vs. MK was diddy advantage! snake at one point too. AND m2k himself said that olimar was the best character in the game a little bit over a year ago.
if you see him work his magic in melee you'd understand that he can't theory worth ****
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Yeah some character need a secondary to be viable.
Define it how you want, I say there chances on average during a set, this includes stage cps as well. Even in SF it's arbitrary with the best of ten games ideology.
Take it as you will.
Snake, he has problems with Olimar and King DDD, neither are worse than 4:6
Diddy Kong has some differing opinions on his true bad MUs, but he doesn;t lose worse than 4:6.
Ice Climber don't lose worse than 4:6, even to MK or Snake.
Marth has some issues with MK, King DDD, and Donkey Kong but he still holds them at 4:6
Wario loses to MK, Marth, King DDD, and Peach, none are worse than a 4:6.
Pikachu doesn't lose to MK, Marth, or Lucario worse than 4:6, or his other bad ones, I think I'm missing some.
Lucario loses to MK, Snake, Marth, and King DDD 4:6 at worst.
These are a few of the characters and there may be others that I'm forgetting or I didn't know something wasn't as bad for them than what I'm thinking.
There are character who don't need a secondary in this game, not everyone has a "counter" to them.
AMKalmar
Smash Ace
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Yoshi only has 4-5 worse than that, and they are only 65-35
They would be Lucario, Tink, MK... and probably someone else, i just cant remember them atm
EDIT: @theunabletable: __X__ took M2K to Game 5 in the finals of SIN2 and he believes the mu to be even... just saying
Albert.
Smash Master
I really liked unable tables post!
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
This still doesn't change the fact that the majority of this is people riding hype off ONE OR TWO PEOPLE beating some MK mains.
What if Tyrant just had a bad day? TKD's a skilled player, of course, but are both of them extremely versed in the match-up? Maybe, maybe not. People like M2K lose to a character and instantly think they're an MK counter, so I don't trust personal testimonial alone as it tends to be highly biased.
And has been pointed out, WHERE ARE THE RESULTS? If Fox really was as good as people like to claim, why isn't he winning a ton of tournies?
If he goes even with MK, why aren't more people using him?
I'm not convinced that any of this is any different than "X character beat <insert MK main>, X character must be an Mk counter! HYPE HYPE HYPE" *6 months pass, nothing changes* "Oh well ****."
How many times have we seen this before with little basis in fact?
Maybe Fox goes REASONABLY CLOSE TO EVEN with MK. EVEN IF we allow that proposition, he still has three obscenely difficult match-ups, and faces other difficult concerning tournament viability as a whole.
Yes, I think he deserved to rise a little, but not FIVE spots, and not JUST because a few select people are doing ok with him. The tier list should NOT be "Who does the best against MK", despite the fact that is technically what our broken-*** metagame is.
What if Tyrant just had a bad day? TKD's a skilled player, of course, but are both of them extremely versed in the match-up? Maybe, maybe not. People like M2K lose to a character and instantly think they're an MK counter, so I don't trust personal testimonial alone as it tends to be highly biased.
And has been pointed out, WHERE ARE THE RESULTS? If Fox really was as good as people like to claim, why isn't he winning a ton of tournies?
If he goes even with MK, why aren't more people using him?
I'm not convinced that any of this is any different than "X character beat <insert MK main>, X character must be an Mk counter! HYPE HYPE HYPE" *6 months pass, nothing changes* "Oh well ****."
How many times have we seen this before with little basis in fact?
Maybe Fox goes REASONABLY CLOSE TO EVEN with MK. EVEN IF we allow that proposition, he still has three obscenely difficult match-ups, and faces other difficult concerning tournament viability as a whole.
Yes, I think he deserved to rise a little, but not FIVE spots, and not JUST because a few select people are doing ok with him. The tier list should NOT be "Who does the best against MK", despite the fact that is technically what our broken-*** metagame is.
Ban MK.
I've never heard of Nakat, and I've never heard of Zeton's accomplishments.
It may not be their fault; I don't really keep up with anyone outside of who everyone's talking about, so if they're not the flavor of the week or the character's star player, it's easy for a person to slip beneath the cracks in the eyes of the general public.
DC.Eden
Smash Cadet
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I was just pointing out some examples.
NAKAT
Smash Champion
I would post all my wins but it probably wouldn't matter.
Falco, Lucario, Toon Link, and Marth others I don't know but MK we have 55:45 on him.
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btw when i saw mk vs fox is even, i mean like 55:45.
yay double digit MU ratios.
yay double digit MU ratios.
It's sad when people post this kind of stuff when just a few pages ago a proved another person wrong on the same subject.Except... this never happened lmao. Take note of the plurals you used in Fox's and MK's, thats not accurate
back in 2008!
what are you talking about?
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
@Slush: Oh that's it, the other 2 are wolf and marth. Falco is only 60:40 for us and mk is 65:35
Coney
Smash Master
meep's pretty much quit the game now for real life, i think
but he still has the second best fox i've ever played
also nakat has (i think) done some pretty big things, people should at least have heard his name in passing by now...
but he still has the second best fox i've ever played
also nakat has (i think) done some pretty big things, people should at least have heard his name in passing by now...
theunabletable
Smash Lord
lol fair enough, then.
You'd rather take a random Sonic main's opinion about the Fox vs MK matchup over TKD (who's beaten top players) and M2K's opinion?
Be my guest, but I'm not doing that ****. There is NO WAY he knows more about that matchup than TKD.
Oh no, I understand what you're saying. Actually, I'm pretty sure I even responded to this point in my post. Of course M2K is biased as hell. But when TKD, who knows the matchup better than anyone on this ****ing planet, says that the matchup is close to even, and beats top MKs when he plays them, and the fact that M2K agrees (M2K's opinion isn't 100% worthless) also points to the fact that MAYBE the matchup is even.
And, honestly, what does theorycraft really matter? If those theorycrafted results don't pop up in practical play, and the best players at that actual matchup disagree with the theorycraft, then wouldn't that indicate that the theorycraft may be, *gasp*, WRONG? (especially when I haven't seen ANYONE show why MK shuts down Fox)
Maybe Tyrant was having a bad day, maybe he was having an exceptionally good day and lost anyways! Maybe the best player at the matchup actually knows what the matchup is like more than a ****ing Sonic main does.
Of course personal testimonial alone can be biased. But when you have multiple sources, one of which is from the person who knows that matchup better than ANYONE does, which is DIFFERENT from M2K saying that Diddy beats MK, or anything like that. M2K doesn't KNOW a lot of matchups. He's just really good. I mean he knows the Snake matchup, and for that particular matchup, I'd take his opinion in pretty high regard.
That's the difference between TKD saying that Fox goes even with MK, and M2K saying something like Wario beats MK. M2K does NOT know the Wario/MK matchup better than TKD knows the Fox vs MK matchup. M2K isn't really a trustable source (I'd imagine) on that particular matchup. But TKD knows the MK matchup ridiculously well, better than anyone, and has come to the conclusion that it's even. THAT is a pretty trustable source.
And M2K is a pretty trustable source on certain matchups as well, IE the ones that he actually has experience in and knows.... Everyone knows that he had a Diddy problem and didn't know the matchup as well as Dojo or Anti. But he's crazily well versed in the Snake matchup, and any ratio he makes about THAT matchup is probably pretty close to true.
Actually, where I'm from, tons of people have a pocket Fox. Just sayin'.
Maybe 'cause he's difficult to use. Maybe 'cause of those ridiculously bad matchups holding him down, it'd be more worth it to just play a better character who doesn't have those bad matchups that he can solely focus on, without the need for secondaries against Pikachu, Sheik, and ICs. I could give you a million reasons for why people don't play Fox.
And there are results of TKD beating top MKs.
Where are the results of top MKs consistently shutting down TKD?
lol I'm not giving Fox a lot of hype because TKD beat Tyrant. I'm saying that the matchup is around even because: 1) TKD, who knows the matchup at his level better than anyone in North America, says that it's even, and has given reasoning for it being even in the past. 2) TKD has beaten top MKs when he's come here to North America. Which, by itself, doesn't prove anything. But when combined with the fact that the person who knows the matchup better than anyone (oh wait, I bet a random Sonic main knows more, nvm >_>), then it begins to mean something. 3) There are a multitude of MKs (top level and mid level) who think that the matchup is around even. Sure some don't, but there are a lot who do, combined with TKD's opinion, and TKD beating top MKs when he comes here, is, imo, enough to justify the opinion that the matchup is around even.
I don't disagree. But ****ing NONE of you have any logical merit when saying that MK shuts down Fox. There's enough evidence to indicate that the matchup is around even for the burden of proof to be on someone who thinks MK shuts Fox down to prove that opinion. Not the other way around.
Can I see the post? And was it M2K or X?
Coney
Smash Master
oh boy, i get to repost this! again!
lord in heaven the MKs are desparate
UH UM NO WE UH, GO EVEN WITH...SHEIK. OMFG TILTS SO ANNOYING
give it time. MKs will find out how to beat fox, just like how they found out how to beat EVERY OTHER PROBLEM CHARACTER THEY HAVE EVER HAD.
lord in heaven the MKs are desparate
UH UM NO WE UH, GO EVEN WITH...SHEIK. OMFG TILTS SO ANNOYING
SuSa
Banned via Administration
I found a character MK goes even with, no lie.
MK goes even with MK.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Sheik v. MK is evenish
I can't vouch for M2K having Fox exp, but I can certainly say Havok and Tyrant know that MU (Havok is arguably from the "Tijuanian school of smash" lol) and they still have a hard time.
that being said there has been many a time when M2K/MK mains have been quick to call a MU "even" when it's just that they're seeing the underdog character's metagame finally being applied to a competent level. This of course doesn't last once people start to have a better perception.
The other reason why Fox v. MK is starting to be regarded as evenish is that Fox does a lot of lol things to traditional MK play. Fox is actually very suitable at combating tornado (he's super light so this often lets him pop out, and the Fast fall enables him to get to the ground for some retaliation against MK as opposed to scrambling in the air), avoiding vertical zoning that MK often abuses on other characters (Pierce made a good observation about how Fox's mechanics allow him to heavily punish any attempt MK does to uair/dair string Fox, although I don't often agree with his theories lol). However, maybe if MK takes an unorthodox approach, we might see something...
That and even TKD has to do the ditto against top MKs if he gets counterpicked to certain stages. In Tijuana where they have a more conservative stagelist, it might be even, but in a ruleset that has more liberal stage picks (not even extended BBR's, just the usual standard ones in the U.S. lol) might alone make this MU more of MK's favor.
of course this is all speculation, seeing as how I neither use fox or MK on that high a level lol. Just observation/passing of info from what I've heard.
on stage 
I can't vouch for M2K having Fox exp, but I can certainly say Havok and Tyrant know that MU (Havok is arguably from the "Tijuanian school of smash" lol) and they still have a hard time.
that being said there has been many a time when M2K/MK mains have been quick to call a MU "even" when it's just that they're seeing the underdog character's metagame finally being applied to a competent level. This of course doesn't last once people start to have a better perception.
The other reason why Fox v. MK is starting to be regarded as evenish is that Fox does a lot of lol things to traditional MK play. Fox is actually very suitable at combating tornado (he's super light so this often lets him pop out, and the Fast fall enables him to get to the ground for some retaliation against MK as opposed to scrambling in the air), avoiding vertical zoning that MK often abuses on other characters (Pierce made a good observation about how Fox's mechanics allow him to heavily punish any attempt MK does to uair/dair string Fox, although I don't often agree with his theories lol). However, maybe if MK takes an unorthodox approach, we might see something...
That and even TKD has to do the ditto against top MKs if he gets counterpicked to certain stages. In Tijuana where they have a more conservative stagelist, it might be even, but in a ruleset that has more liberal stage picks (not even extended BBR's, just the usual standard ones in the U.S. lol) might alone make this MU more of MK's favor.
of course this is all speculation, seeing as how I neither use fox or MK on that high a level lol. Just observation/passing of info from what I've heard.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
you've got a point lol
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Whoa whoa whoa.
Marth isn't that bad.
Wolf is DEFINITELY not that bad. I'm probably the best Yoshi at the match up, it's entirely winnable. 40:60 at WORST.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
NUW TEAR LYST
1. MEATKNIGHT
2. SNACK
3. DOODOO KONE
4. FLAKE-Os
1. MEATKNIGHT
2. SNACK
3. DOODOO KONE
4. FLAKE-Os
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