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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Hahahahaha this was a good joke +rep
Waldorf: You know Statler, after watching the last 5 tier lists of Super Smash Bros Brawl, I think I've come to a conclusion on Meta Knight.
Statler: No you haven't.
Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
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- 11,841
Oh.
Snap.
Dawg.
I think you just challenged me to a $10 pikachu vs samus money match.
To be fair, I don't think the top tiers in N64 were -that- overwhelming (as long as the fights were somewhat balanced).
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Psycho Shredder FTW!
If they clanked, Pikachu would take wayyyy longer to do anything. Also, Meta Knight could easily edgeguard any character in N64 Smash.
Imagine if Meta Knight could slam himself into the ledge anytime he was hit near the ledge, both on or off the stage...
Combined with his recovery, THAT'S perfect planking.
Combined with his recovery, THAT'S perfect planking.
Smash 64 Pikachu is feasibly one of if not the best smash characters ever created.
However, Meta Knight has a better recovery (a lot slower than pikachus though). The thing about that game though is that its played competitively on a stage that inhibits pikachu as much as possible (Hyrule) and time outs are mute.
Also other characters can combo him to death. Somewhat reliably.
Imo its something like
Smash 64 Pikachu/Melee Fox > Meta Knight > Fox 64 > Jigglypuff Melee
(Fox is smash 64 is hella broken, you kids all fangasm over what he can do in melee... pssh)
However, Meta Knight has a better recovery (a lot slower than pikachus though). The thing about that game though is that its played competitively on a stage that inhibits pikachu as much as possible (Hyrule) and time outs are mute.
Also other characters can combo him to death. Somewhat reliably.
Imo its something like
Smash 64 Pikachu/Melee Fox > Meta Knight > Fox 64 > Jigglypuff Melee
(Fox is smash 64 is hella broken, you kids all fangasm over what he can do in melee... pssh)
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
I'd agree. Watch M2K, then watch Isai's Pikachu. You don't have to be good enough at 64 to see the diff there
To the person who said that there aren't that many smash 64 people who know brawl as well, hi. SuperBoom and a whole lot of other people could say hi also (T!mmy comes to mention).Imagine if Meta Knight could slam himself into the ledge anytime he was hit near the ledge, both on or off the stage...
Combined with his recovery, THAT'S perfect planking.
Anyway, to your question it doesn't refer to any time, it only refers to a move that actually hits MK if MK is grabbing the ledge. You can't DI into the ledge if you are above it.
Pikachu would be hitting MK off stage in something melee and smash 64 people call a "combo." Something that brawl people such as yourself do not understand. Pikachu has the only good recovery in smash 64 for a reason. it has multiple invincibilty frames during both hits of the up b and goes much further than ANY of MK's recoveries not including gliding.
Also, are we talking about brawl ledges or smash 64 ledges?
In smash 64, many of MK's strategies wouldn't work because there isn't an invisible Sakurai brand magnet that makes it so anyone within 5 feet of the ledge can grab it.
There are barely any invincibilty frames from just grabbing the ledge. MK would have to move.
.
Or if you add the smash 64 pikachu into the brawl game with the brawl physics. Imagine snake's up tilt....but better. Remember that many characters have massive priority in smash 64. Pikachu could even jab to cancel out the MK nado if Pikachu still had all of it's smash 64 properties.
In short: the only reason why brawl MK is so broken and Pikachu isn't considered in the same league as MK isn't since Pikachu is less broken (Pikachu has 0 bad matchups in smash 64, no even ones. I am looking at you MK matchup chart). It is due to the game physics.
Add MK to smash 64? Kirby up tilt says hi to MK's nado. Same with falcon's moveset even. Fox's lasers make Falco's lasers in brawl look BAD<<<.
Fox could shine cancel if from smash 64 into a jab lock into an up smash. 1 frame moves beat MK.
BTW, for Shaya's post. Add Falco to the melee on top. Then I agree. Falco is equally good IMO and I do agree with the MBR list.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
about as silly as trying to get peach and game and watch banned...
Why would I listen to a crazy person?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
thanks to the people in this thread, my fox improved tremendously, I dont think his tier rise was too far off base now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFEFPOrAYIE&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFEFPOrAYIE&feature=sub
Browny
Smash Hater
Hmmm KID using Fox. Why doesnt this surprise me. I suppose its the nautral progression from Sonic-Lucario-Wolf-Falco 
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Still doesn't change my mind at all. (Besides the fact it looked like the Lucario didn't have a clue what to do against Fox).
There was no data at the time of the tier list creation to support Fox moving up. Heck, it doesn't matter if a Fox comes in a wins MLG DC: doesn't change the fact that their tier list is wrong for the snapshot of time it was based in. What happens a month later does not effect how correct the tier list was back then. You never raise a character on "potential". That's just stupid and illogical, you've got nothing to back up potential. How do you know that the "potential" you saw in character X doesn't raise him up 4 spots because the small "potential" in character Y 3 spots ahead is enough to keep him above character X?
At the time of the tier list, Fox's tournament results were slightly worse than Wolf's. His MUs were roughly around Wolf's, though in debate. And the best Fox has to switch to MK every now and then. Nothing something that the best Wolf, Ike, Sonic, or Ness have to do for example. That should also say something about the character's abilities.
No matter what happens, Fox's rise will never, never, never be justified. Ever. Not even for a tiny moment if a Fox wins MLG DC (not that I'm expecting one within the top 32 even). I'm looking forwards to watching Fox drop, just like PT dropped. And Pit dropped. If you raise a character on "potential", you will in fact watch him drop back down at a later date.
NAKAT
Smash Champion
If only I went to MLG DC expect me at Dallas and see how I do. I don't believe Fox is going anywhere and I am going to continue to keep on doing well in NJ to prove it. Of course TKD is going to switch to MK such as myself because you are going to have players that will want to counterpick you with Death Mu's or to stages that Fox can not handle. Fox can not simply do it on his own. Everyone should know this, but since you don't main the character.........let me stop lol.
Ayo Kid stop watching my videos son lmao nice work.
~NAKAT~
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
If Fox can't do it on his own, why is he above characters that can at least get very far doing it on their own, if not winning on their own even with MKs in the mix? (Ike and Sonic are the most obvious ones here, I'd have to double check some of the others, but I know Reflex has done so in the past with PT, and I think it has happened with Ness)? It's simply not logical. :\ If you must switch to MK at some point while using Fox, then Fox has a very large, glaring flaw of some sort. Apparently, a flaw bigger than the flaws of those characters who don't need to, either a stage issue, a MU issue, or both. *shrugs*
I'm not saying that Fox should be below Ike and Sonic, but it doesn't make sense to jump him 4 spots if he needs to use MK more so than characters under him.
I'm not saying that Fox should be below Ike and Sonic, but it doesn't make sense to jump him 4 spots if he needs to use MK more so than characters under him.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Niddo, Ike's MK match-up is as bad as or worse than Fox's bad match-ups, just for different reasons.
NAKAT
Smash Champion
This is so true.
If the best Fox mains needs MK to do well, that should tell you something. I'm sure alot of lower mid tier characters could do well with Metaknight backing them up for every stage/matchup they are worthless for.
Who is the best "fox only" main anyway? Are there any of those that do well at all?
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
But we still don't need to switch. :/ If Fox does indeed have to switch due to either just the character, or character + too many stages to worry about in that combination, I find it hard to believe that it's actually better than the Ike vs MK ratio. If the Fox vs Sheik/w/e character is his worse is "same or better" than the Ike vs MK ratio, why do they need to switch? Something doesn't add up.
Either that, or Fox mains are extremely lazy and refuse to learn the MU fully, which also hurts them, while the Ike vs MK ratio isn't as bad as we think. Take your pick. I'm leaning towards option A personally, because I know the Ike vs MK MU is a pain in the rear. But I still don't need to switch for it.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
so much to respond to.
Browny and Espy, I also played or will play in the future shiek, tink, ZSS, kirby, ddd, mk, zelda, and PT in tourney. your implications to paint me as a fur*** are clearly offbase. if you want to paint me as somebody who has fun playing diff characters and possibly is too add to stick to one for a whole tourney, that would be far more accurate.
@ niddo, with ike, its possible that players were showing people things that they didnt realise about ike to make him so good. Its possible that the inverse can happen as well and that people can come together, look at a character and say that he is has qualitys of a good character even if nobody at the time is doing said things that make him good. depending on how you look at it, (ironically enough) fox in melee could be an example of this.
I know what youre going to say and yes that does open up a massive can of worms, but it is still possible. Not saying youre right or wrong, but look at all possible factors, and not just the sample that is front of your face. In all fairness I feel like Ike is better than fox, just because of his pure adaptabilty, even if you take him to rainbow cruise or something, he can turn the tables on people very quickly and kill people at 0 for very small miscalculations, based on circumstance.
however, you seem to misinterpret some things from what I can tell, as i dont think fox mains (if i were one, I wouldnt) pull secondaries for matchups like shiek or pika as much as they do just to combat either terrible stages, or really bad stage/character combinations.
@tesh, best 100% fox main imo would probably be zeton, who is the best fox behind NAKAT and TKD
@NAKAT, is it THAT obvious in my fox how much I analyse your vids? lawl.
Browny and Espy, I also played or will play in the future shiek, tink, ZSS, kirby, ddd, mk, zelda, and PT in tourney. your implications to paint me as a fur*** are clearly offbase. if you want to paint me as somebody who has fun playing diff characters and possibly is too add to stick to one for a whole tourney, that would be far more accurate.
@ niddo, with ike, its possible that players were showing people things that they didnt realise about ike to make him so good. Its possible that the inverse can happen as well and that people can come together, look at a character and say that he is has qualitys of a good character even if nobody at the time is doing said things that make him good. depending on how you look at it, (ironically enough) fox in melee could be an example of this.
I know what youre going to say and yes that does open up a massive can of worms, but it is still possible. Not saying youre right or wrong, but look at all possible factors, and not just the sample that is front of your face. In all fairness I feel like Ike is better than fox, just because of his pure adaptabilty, even if you take him to rainbow cruise or something, he can turn the tables on people very quickly and kill people at 0 for very small miscalculations, based on circumstance.
however, you seem to misinterpret some things from what I can tell, as i dont think fox mains (if i were one, I wouldnt) pull secondaries for matchups like shiek or pika as much as they do just to combat either terrible stages, or really bad stage/character combinations.
@tesh, best 100% fox main imo would probably be zeton, who is the best fox behind NAKAT and TKD
@NAKAT, is it THAT obvious in my fox how much I analyse your vids? lawl.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Rainbow Cruise is actually a fairly good Ike stage though. >_> Several Ikes use that as a CP sometimes. Ike doesn't have a stage where it's "Ah shoot, I need to switch." Neither does Sonic. Fox, according to you and others, does. That's a huge flaw in the character. Wanna beat a Fox main? Just choose this stage on your CP, and watch him either fall apart or switch characters.
And you can't accurately judge qualities of a character if nobody is using them. You don't know how good something is, or even if it is actually good in the first place in extreme cases. How can you use those opinions, and weight them against known facts proven in tournaments about another character? It just doesn't work, even with multiple people looking at them. Melee Fox is obviously good, he's the best character in the game. He doesn't need "potential" to put himself up there. He's proven that he's the best. Brawl Fox hasn't proven he should have gone up at all.
And you can't accurately judge qualities of a character if nobody is using them. You don't know how good something is, or even if it is actually good in the first place in extreme cases. How can you use those opinions, and weight them against known facts proven in tournaments about another character? It just doesn't work, even with multiple people looking at them. Melee Fox is obviously good, he's the best character in the game. He doesn't need "potential" to put himself up there. He's proven that he's the best. Brawl Fox hasn't proven he should have gone up at all.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
You cant tell HOW good it is, but you can make an observation.
You cant tell how much foxs fall speed helps him in certain matchups. but you can say that it is a boon to the character because it adds to his mobility. You dont have to know how good something is to know its good...
And I bring up the melee fox example becuase recently, (since brawl came out) fox HASNT shown that hes the best character in the game, no fox main has won a big tourney in ages, but hes still at the top of the tier list because everyone knows he has the "potential" to shine **** every character in the cast, knaamean?
-Shiek, Toon Link, Zelda, and Zero Suit Samus
-Kirby, King Dedede, Meta Knight, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Fox, Wolf, Lucario, Sonic
10 to 4. Evidence is becoming far too clear to ignore.
Doesn't help that you're totally furry for Rouge.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Kirby, MK, ivysaur, and charizard are animals?
I know kirby isnt, Mk has a cape half the time, but on the occasions that he turns said cape into bat wings, i mean if you want to twist and construe that into Mk himself being a bat, I guess thats your freedom to do. I guess that means you would call pit an animal too? inysaur is a plant, and dragons arent animals, they are mystical creatures...
your ability to count seems quite impared...
I know kirby isnt, Mk has a cape half the time, but on the occasions that he turns said cape into bat wings, i mean if you want to twist and construe that into Mk himself being a bat, I guess thats your freedom to do. I guess that means you would call pit an animal too? inysaur is a plant, and dragons arent animals, they are mystical creatures...
your ability to count seems quite impared...
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
lets talk about Mk vs fox more, I enjoy beating the MKs around here.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
nah, me and pikax2 taught our region the ganon matchup. lol.
but the lucario thing, its something that I was talking to soren on aim about last night.
All you have to do to be a good/above average player these days in this metagame is be good at the mk matchup. that lucario beat like 2-3 mks in a row to get to me, where I blasted him with wolf, falco, and fox.
but the lucario thing, its something that I was talking to soren on aim about last night.
All you have to do to be a good/above average player these days in this metagame is be good at the mk matchup. that lucario beat like 2-3 mks in a row to get to me, where I blasted him with wolf, falco, and fox.
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