Official BBR Tier List v5

[Ripple]

u srs bro?
DDD is really fkn good. idk why people are underestimating him so hard, except that he does have a couple really bad matchups. but so does lucario.

are you serious nicole?

lucario doesn't do to well vs. snake and MK but does fine vs everyone else. d3 is debatable I guess but IMO its a -1

D3 gets absolutely ***** by MK, falco, Pika, ICs, ZSS and diddy.

d3 may **** mid and low tiers but isn't important at all. he's the very bottom of high tier.

 

[Steam]

D3 is also still doing slightly better results wise... though if you look at the difference in the character/user column for D3 in john's data it shows D3 very often has a secondary while lucario is usually soloing because there's almost no difference in the two columns.

however even when looking at just character D3 is still doing better considering his usage... and a lot better when looking at users...

I dunno... lol. neither of them are extremely relevant on a national level. not very aware of how D3 places at large events though :L

Lucario is definitely a more solid character though. D3 does NEED a secondary... and that speaks a lot for his viability :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

coney, whos retired... and who else?

 

[Steam]

well IF Lucario moves above D3... so should ZSS, Tink, and GW... it would be D3 dropping like a rock if anything...

but I think D3 is fine where he is for now.

 

[Ripple]

well IF Lucario moves above D3... so should ZSS, Tink, and GW... it would be D3 dropping like a rock if anything...

but I think D3 is fine where he is for now.

thats exactly how I would make my tier list

 

[Jimmyfosho]

coney made that waddle dee get hyped

 

[Exceladon City]

Is CO18 still relevant?

 

[OverLade]

Wario sucks. If he had a small shank or something to give him SOME kind of priority, he would be soooo much better...but alas, we wario mains are limited to using his stubby little fists and short elf feet as our weapons while mk gets a sword that is as big as his body and snake can twists the fabric of space to get ridiculously long hitboxes

Agreed. People who actually know how to fight against Wario are incredible frustrating to fight against because they will literally just camp and zone you the entire match. Its not that you cant get in, but your opponent literally has to mispace or mistime or misreact to something...

D3 gets absolutely ***** by MK, falco, Pika, ICs, ZSS and diddy.

Disagree. He doesn't get ***** he just loses. There aren't a lot of good D3s to go around (not anymore) but he's definitely not a terrible character that loses to everyone.

 

[z00ted]

lucario is high tier. deal with it

and next time, you should probably ask this rather than an 8 ball

SUCH a good post.

 

[Nicole]

are you serious nicole?

lucario doesn't do to well vs. snake and MK but does fine vs everyone else. d3 is debatable I guess but IMO its a -1

D3 gets absolutely ***** by MK, falco, Pika, ICs, ZSS and diddy.

d3 may **** mid and low tiers but isn't important at all. he's the very bottom of high tier.

uh he definitely doesnt get ***** by falco zss or diddy. there are verrry few high level ddd's. but i've seen coney beat top players of those characters. ddd doesnt get *****. i would say he doesnt get ***** by pika either, but i've never gotten to see that MU happen, only heard it.

lucario does FINE against everyone but he isnt ****** half the cast like ddd either ya know. ddd doesnt have as many options as lucario but the options he does have are extremely good in his bair, grab, and his defensive options like shield and spotdodge. yeah he cant deal with campers that well but what characters can? lucario?

look lucario is good and all, but i'm really sick of hearing how bad ddd is. he has ZERO representation anymore. he's a hard option to play because mk is so common. and let's not forget the growing trend that everyone is switching to mk now. i mean how many good lucarios are there? and how many of them beat GOOD mks? you cant blame people for switching mains or quitting when they get frustrated, but you also can't use this trend to say "ddd needs to be mid tier". because he shouldn't be. he should be high tier. he is way too good not to be. imo he is the 10th best char.

 

[Kaffei]

uh he definitely doesnt get ***** by falco zss or diddy. there are verrry few high level ddd's. but i've seen coney beat top players of those characters. ddd doesnt get *****. i would say he doesnt get ***** by pika either, but i've never gotten to see that MU happen, only heard it.

lucario does FINE against everyone but he isnt ****** half the cast like ddd either ya know. ddd doesnt have as many options as lucario but the options he does have are extremely good in his bair, grab, and his defensive options like shield and spotdodge. yeah he cant deal with campers that well but what characters can? lucario?

look lucario is good and all, but i'm really sick of hearing how bad ddd is. he has ZERO representation anymore. he's a hard option to play because mk is so common. and let's not forget the growing trend that everyone is switching to mk now. i mean how many good lucarios are there? and how many of them beat GOOD mks? you cant blame people for switching mains or quitting when they get frustrated, but you also can't use this trend to say "ddd needs to be mid tier". because he shouldn't be. he should be high tier. he is way too good not to be. imo he is the 10th best char.

fak meta knight

 

[Steam]

uh he definitely doesnt get ***** by falco zss or diddy. there are verrry few high level ddd's. but i've seen coney beat top players of those characters. ddd doesnt get *****. i would say he doesnt get ***** by pika either, but i've never gotten to see that MU happen, only heard it.

lucario does FINE against everyone but he isnt ****** half the cast like ddd either ya know. ddd doesnt have as many options as lucario but the options he does have are extremely good in his bair, grab, and his defensive options like shield and spotdodge. yeah he cant deal with campers that well but what characters can? lucario?

look lucario is good and all, but i'm really sick of hearing how bad ddd is. he has ZERO representation anymore. he's a hard option to play because mk is so common. and let's not forget the growing trend that everyone is switching to mk now. i mean how many good lucarios are there? and how many of them beat GOOD mks? you cant blame people for switching mains or quitting when they get frustrated, but you also can't use this trend to say "ddd needs to be mid tier". because he shouldn't be. he should be high tier. he is way too good not to be. imo he is the 10th best char.

Trela beat Dojo not too long ago :0

and I'm sure Zucco beat plenty of MKs back when he played simply because he placed high in his region which was filled with them.

also D3 > Lucario probably

 

[Browny]

lol this logic

"people quit ddd for mk, but hes still a good character he just gets countered hard. stay in high tier"

"people quit ROB for mk, thats coz ROB is getting exposed and gets countered hard. down to mid tier"

just because its 2011 instead of 2009 and it took people twice as long to realise DDD isnt that great, doesnt mean he has any bigger claim to high tier than someone like G&W who need I remind people, used to share top tier with MK.

 

[z00ted]

Omfg, Dedede is NOT better than Lucario.

Although I agree with pretty much a lot of what Nicole said, don't make statements about how a certain character is better than another unless you have top level experience against said character.

In my opinion, Lucario is currently even more underrated than Dedede.

Trela and Zucco are both EXTREMELY good and can probably go much farther in tournament with strictly Lucario than any DDD main could.

 

[Ripple]

uh he definitely doesnt get ***** by falco zss or diddy. there are verrry few high level ddd's. but i've seen coney beat top players of those characters. ddd doesnt get *****. i would say he doesnt get ***** by pika either, but i've never gotten to see that MU happen, only heard it.

lucario does FINE against everyone but he isnt ****** half the cast like ddd either ya know. ddd doesnt have as many options as lucario but the options he does have are extremely good in his bair, grab, and his defensive options like shield and spotdodge. yeah he cant deal with campers that well but what characters can? lucario?

look lucario is good and all, but i'm really sick of hearing how bad ddd is. he has ZERO representation anymore. he's a hard option to play because mk is so common. and let's not forget the growing trend that everyone is switching to mk now. i mean how many good lucarios are there? and how many of them beat GOOD mks? you cant blame people for switching mains or quitting when they get frustrated, but you also can't use this trend to say "ddd needs to be mid tier". because he shouldn't be. he should be high tier. he is way too good not to be. imo he is the 10th best char.

I'm willing to concede that diddy is easier than others but not willing to say he doesn't get destroyed by falco or ZSS.

D3 ***** BAD characters. the best character he actually goes +2 against is probably wolf, who is still a bad character. he loses to everyone above him except for possibly snake and marth. and that is debatable.

I never bashed what options he had. his mix up game is really good but he just loses to characters who can out maneuver him or be a better wall (snake). and that everyone above him.

there's a reason why ddd has no representation anymore ( even though he still has mid level rep; look at my thread for that). he is a character who ***** bad characters and gets handled by good ones. he is THE line between high tier and mid tier.

and I didn't really blame anything on people switching mains to MK. I imagine that happen more with people who play marth than d3.

and I also said that d3 should be high tier myself, he should just be dead last in high tier. aka 13th-15th

 

[dean.]

D3 ***** BAD characters. the best character he actually goes +2 against is probably wolf, who is still a bad character. he loses to everyone above him except for possibly snake and marth. and that is debatable.

I'm almost certain Dedede does not lose to Wario.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well, speaking of it. I did say on my list Lucario was higher than D3.


-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:



-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

He does beat the cast harder, but his MUs with high tier are far worse than Lucarios, he does beat 3-4 people in high tier, but then he loses to the rest by -2.

Lucario evens out a lot more, which in a way helps him progress farther in tournament, but he has to work harder against lower tiered characters because his MUs are a lot closer to even than D3s are.

It's a trade off.

 

[Ripple]

I'm almost certain Dedede does not lose to Wario.

totally forgot about him. that match up is dumb, its an auto win for whoever wins game 1

 

[Steam]

Omfg, Dedede is NOT better than Lucario.

Although I agree with pretty much a lot of what Nicole said, don't make statements about how a certain character is better than another unless you have top level experience against said character.

In my opinion, Lucario is currently even more underrated than Dedede.

Trela and Zucco are both EXTREMELY good and can probably go much farther in tournament with strictly Lucario than any DDD main could.

wait where do you think lucario belongs???? 0_o I don't really think lucario is underrated. though rather that D3 is overrated.

also zucco quit sadly :L

 

[Seagull Joe]

D3 doesn't lose to Sheilda in my opinion. He is even with Sheik and -1 with Zelda. Not sure how that equates to +1 for Sheilda at all...I know this has already been stated a billion times.

 

[Ripple]

D3 doesn't lose to Sheilda in my opinion. He is even with Sheik and -1 with Zelda. Not sure how that equates to +1 for Sheilda at all...I know this has already been stated a billion times.

through their powers combined.... I AM CAPTAIN PLANET!!!

but really, most people will think of it as an average between the 2 when really, its not at all.

-going to bed also

 

[Shaya]

lol this logic

"people quit ddd for mk, but hes still a good character he just gets countered hard. stay in high tier"

"people quit ROB for mk, thats coz ROB is getting exposed and gets countered hard. down to mid tier"

just because its 2011 instead of 2009 and it took people twice as long to realise DDD isnt that great, doesnt mean he has any bigger claim to high tier than someone like G&W who need I remind people, used to share top tier with MK.

Do you think before posting man? lol.

ROB doesn't **** half the cast. People still agree that Dedede ***** most of the cast and has certain advantages on high tier characters. His losing match ups have been somewhat known for quite a while, his usage has dropped since the MK match up has become 'worse' to the point its not something you're willing to try first round of your set.

It comes down to what you define as high tier.
It's a mingle of how successful you can be using a singular character, as well as how powerful that character is to use. Dedede is an extremely powerful character to use still and that hasn't changed. He's one of the worst in terms of singular usage though.

 

[phi1ny3]

wait where do you think lucario belongs???? 0_o I don't really think lucario is underrated. though rather that D3 is overrated.

also zucco quit sadly :L

Just replace his name w/ Junebug

D3 doesn't lose to Sheilda in my opinion. He is even with Sheik and -1 with Zelda. Not sure how that equates to +1 for Sheilda at all...I know this has already been stated a billion times.

through their powers combined.... I AM CAPTAIN PLANET!!!

but really, most people will think of it as an average between the 2 when really, its not at all.

-going to bed also

From my experience, Zelda helps in the kill process a loooot, because D3 is strangely hard to completely stop Zelda cold (unlike Pikachu and ICs imo), lots of D3 stuff can be punished with a kill move and has issues dealing with some Zelda stuff the rest of the cast normally violates her for trying, which is helpful since Sheik will literally not be able to kill until like 200% rofl. Zelda's normally -1 because you have to deal with all her cons in racking damage and making mistakes prior, but that's changed when you use Sheik (who's slightly better in that niche) for that period of time.

I think it's a matter of preference, but overall I can see why people think it's very even and could turn out to be a collective +1. I really hope people don't average out the ratios to determine that sort of number, because it's based on specific role/niche, as opposed to PT where you literally have to look at each pokemon and decide which ones are going to have the more favorable and lean on that while minimizing the hole made by potentially one of them.

 

[Steam]

but there aren't great MKs in MD/VA :/

 

[phi1ny3]

That dun matter, he's still got a good track record against good MKs from other regions.

 

[Browny]

Do you think before posting man? lol.

ROB doesn't **** half the cast. People still agree that Dedede ***** most of the cast and has certain advantages on high tier characters. His losing match ups have been somewhat known for quite a while, his usage has dropped since the MK match up has become 'worse' to the point its not something you're willing to try first round of your set.

It comes down to what you define as high tier.
It's a mingle of how successful you can be using a singular character, as well as how powerful that character is to use. Dedede is an extremely powerful character to use still and that hasn't changed. He's one of the worst in terms of singular usage though.

and why does ****** half the irrelevant cast have anything to do with the tier list?

the list has been 'who does best against MK' for quite some time now, since doing well vs mk = doing well in tournaments. you wont see a SOLO DDD top 8'ing anything where the overall level of play/entrants at any given tournament is what this tier list is meant to represent.

If he had an infinite CG on the bottom 20 characters or he went even with them, id still put him around luc/zss/G&W since his matchups vs the higher tier characters are the only ones which matter in VIABILITY. Thats such a key word, your matchup spread is irrelvant if you cant actually get high in a tournament. When the tier list is meant to represent top level play, why would you consider ANYTHING else when top level play is top/high tier characters with the random mid thrown in rarely?

 

[Coney]

honestly i think ddd is bottom of high tier and worse than lucario, but only by one spot or so

but i've been known to underrate ddd so maybe i'm wrong

it's just my reasoning that tier lists are indicative of the current metagame and in most metagames, the most popular characters also happen to be the best ones. ddd suffers more because of this and, as such, is a worse pick, at least for a solo.

it's strange because i think most people underrate ddd's options and see him as a 1-2-3 character, but i also think they're not far off from saying he's mid tier. he's the bottom of high, i think, but he's a better character than that might sound.

it should say something, though, that pretty much every ddd has pretty much either quit him or the game entirely. you can draw your own conclusions but speaking with candor, it's because he's a very fun, very appealing character that is very exhausting

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I also agree that DDD is worse than Lucario.

 

[Laem]

Would it be justifiable to put d3 in midtier if his hightier MUs were (became) that much worse, even though he would then **** every character in his tier?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Tough to say, but the rise of Meta Knights will definitely mean the fall of D3s.

I think DK is too high for the same reason.

 

[Flayl]

No way should Dedede ever go to mid tier. He would dominate mid tier tournaments.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Please tell me that's sarcasm.

/desensitized to sarcasm by Youtube stupidity

 

[Flayl]

No it's not sarcasm. Are you even aware what matchups make good Dededes drop out of tournaments?

No you're not, but you like to theorycraft it I'm sure.

 

[Conviction]

People would pick up Fox to CP D3 then

 

[Steam]

People would pick up Fox to CP D3 then

and the same people would pick up D3 to CP anyone else

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No it's not sarcasm. Are you even aware what matchups make good Dededes drop out of tournaments?

No you're not, but you like to theorycraft it I'm sure.

I am not denying that D3 would **** in mid tier tournaments.

But who the **** cares about mid-tier tournaments?

Lol at the theory-craft remark. Who are you again? I do play Smash you know. I know exactly what match-ups screw D3 over, thank-you very much.

 

[Flayl]

I'm the guy that actually takes results and matches of top players into account before I judge other people's opinions.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What does my opinion of mid tiers being irrelevant have to do with skill and results?

 

[Flayl]

People would pick up Fox to CP D3 then

Do you have any links to Dedede VS Fox matches? Can you really call Fox a counter to Dedede?

 

[Conviction]

Do you have any links to Dedede VS Fox matches? Can you really call Fox a counter to Dedede?

It's a hard counter but it's Fox's adv.

Actually I don't think there are any vids of the MU XD

What I can say is, I have a positive record against D3 and my most recent loss to one was 4God and that was like 2 years ago Lol