Official BBR Tier List v5

[Staco]

On a more serious note, my "style" is worse in Singles because Wario can't reliably deal damage to Meta Knight without help from another source. Either he tricks Meta Knight with a tire (but it's hard to pull tires out against Meta Knight in 1v1) or his partner is able to force situations where Wario can deal good damage. That's all.

Or you are just not good enough.
Don´t blame everything on your character.

Afaik Warios do pretty solid vs. MKs right now.
Anti, Ally, Glutonny all do really well vs. MKs.
And Anti and Ally don´t even main Wario, still take matches and Anti even pulled a set of M2K.

I´ve beaten Leon the last time I played him (MM at M2N) and I´ve also already beaten Mr-R in a MM (at M2N he won though, but as far as I remember the matches all were close). @ Gheb
I think it´s funny how high you are already rating Kaos after M2N, when he hasn´t really proven himself yet after the quit.
1 tourney can´t really tell much.
He beat me, yep, he beat iStudy, okay, thats not that special any more, since he almost lost to iStudys Snake, he beat quiksilver, a MU he knows really well.
For example: I still think Orion is probably better than Kaos or me in MK dittos, I just ****ed up badly vs. Kaos and was a bit lucky vs. Orion.
I don´t think Kaos would beat Orion, if they had to play in tourney.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

oh my bad, misread that LOL but still iirc its 2-3 which is not even close to 2-8
also who the **** are u :o

 

[Mr-R]

u have to admit though that its pretty damn impressive he placed 3rd after not playing the game for so long.
also there hasn't been a mk that has ever outplaced him in europe so its not entirely false to say that he's still europes best mk right now, at least placement wise.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Or you are just not good enough.
Don´t blame everything on your character.

Maybe so. I don't blame everything on my character, though. I do pretty well for myself overall. Pretty sure it's more that Meta Knight is dumb than anything else, but it's easier to say that I'm not very good than to look at the matchup critically, right?

Afaik Warios do pretty solid vs. MKs right now.
Anti, Ally, Glutonny all do really well vs. MKs.
And Anti and Ally don´t even main Wario, still take matches and Anti even pulled a set of M2K.

What Meta Knights have they beaten?

Not to discredit Anti's victory, but, Mew2King should totally learn how to camp more effectively in that matchup if he wants an easier time.

 

[Staco]

u have to admit though that its pretty damn impressive he placed 3rd after not playing the game for so long.
also there hasn't been a mk that has ever outplaced him in europe so its not entirely false to say that he's still europes best mk right now, at least placement wise.

Placement wise he is.
But I think it´s false to say sth. like: He´s the only one on a skill level as Ramin and Leon, since
Orion is also doing really well vs. a lot of people
I´m also doing really well vs. the top players at my good days, probably being on a worse skill level though, when it comes down to consistency.
It´s impressive, yeah, but not too impressive, if you look at his bracket.
Do you think he would have also placed 3rd, if he had my bracket from Dogush Smash?
(playing vs. Orion -> Calzorz in winners and if he lost then: iStudy, you, Leon, Calzorz for 3rd or T, Leon, Calzorz for 3rd in losers)



If he camps, you can pull out tires. ;D
Nah, seriously, Wario players always tell me, just camp more, but I haven´t seen this working for any MK player yet.
But there are not much vids of top Wario vs. top MKs on youtube, so yeah.

 

[Laem]

/just namedropping Deimos here cuz his MK is awesome :D

Btw the superior american MK's are sandbagging in recent vids (e.g ktar5) i presume?

 

[Orion*]

I think that me/kaos/staco really aren't That different in skill level in our various days.

I think I'm better technically//mu wise than both of them
But Kaos is better at adapting than me
Staco is kinda in the middle. I also think Staco is just more hungry than me and Kaos, which while it sounds funny really does directly effect your mindset.

edit:

i honestly think Bjay would probably wreck all of us if he like. played the game LMAO

 

[Kaffei]

you really think wario is in that snake/falco/diddy conversation?

Why? I dont really see the evidence to say that hes that good, but I havent seen a good wario in a good while. the last wario i saw was losing to boss's mario

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enszKc2vVwc

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

In case anyone watches the video, Wario starts at 9:49 :V

Also, brb grabbing a match with a good Ganondorf.

Quick actual part on something dealing with Wario. He suffers from Air release shenanigans, which greatly hinder him, especially against other high tiers.

 

[Orion*]

In case anyone watches the video, Wario starts at 9:49 :V

Also, brb grabbing a match with a good Ganondorf.

Quick actual part on something dealing with Wario. He suffers from Air release shenanigans, which greatly hinder him, especially against other high tiers.

a lot of the characters that matter are to short to air release him :X

DDD/Marth ***** enough alright
But like. He does fine vs Snake. The only other high tiers that air release are like..... zss/dk or something LMAO

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

ZSS gets an infinite though so...

 

[C.J.]

lmao, good luck grabbing a competent wario as ZSS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I hear Wario can DI away and ZSS can't regrab him but I've never tested it

 

[Orion*]

ZSS gets an infinite though so...

Grabbing wario is hard enough without... being zss

 

[Ripple]

you can't continually regrab wario as ZSS. the best thing you can do is grab release> d-smash>d-smash> regrab> realease> up air/bair

 

[NickRiddle]

I hear Wario can DI away and ZSS can't regrab him but I've never tested it

No.
Wario and DI away and not get d-smashed by ZSS. The regrab is legit... I think...

you can't continually regrab wario as ZSS. the best thing you can do is grab release> d-smash>d-smash> regrab> realease> up air/bair

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure you get a regrab...
Also, if your opponent gets hit by GR > d-smash, a pivot grab resets the d-smash from this point.

 

[T-block]

You can't DI an air release trajectory. You probably mean that ZSS can't get the d-smash out fast enough before Wario regains air control.

Last I heard, ZSS could regrab out of air release.

 

[DMG]

She can regrab out of air release. The timing is rough but you can do it. However that doesn't mean much since you have to pummel to add damage, which lets him ground break. Otherwise, you can release and regrab over and over without doing damage, but that would be stalling. So yeah.

 

[NickRiddle]

You can't DI an air release trajectory. You probably mean that ZSS can't get the d-smash out fast enough before Wario regains air control.

Last I heard, ZSS could regrab out of air release.

I don't mean that she cannot get it fast enough.
I mean that he can DI it.
Don't ask me why, it just works that way.
Otherwise grab > d-smash > pivot grab would be legit if he has no bike.

She can regrab out of air release. The timing is rough but you can do it. However that doesn't mean much since you have to pummel to add damage, which lets him ground break. Otherwise, you can release and regrab over and over without doing damage, but that would be stalling. So yeah.

And, sadly, after testing buffered mashing with ESAM...
I learned that I cannot get a second regrab before like...120...

 

[DMG]

Exactly. It's the same thing with Ike. While he can regrab over and over, being forced to pummel to do damage negates the ability to infinite with it until much higher %'s.

 

[Ripple]

I have no idea how you guys pummel so fast to break even IF you know you're going to get grabbed. I can't break anything after like 80%

 

[NickRiddle]

I have no idea how you guys pummel so fast to break even IF you know you're going to get grabbed. I can't break anything after like 80%

Ask ESAM/Reflex.

 

[DMG]

If you do the Kprime method, depending on the champ grabbing you you can reach close to 160% or higher.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Damn, the callout.
You gonna take that BBR?

M2K's views on the tier list revolve around how much difficulty he has with the character.
It was why he believed Diddy was the best character n the game for the longest time, and thought Sonic was a good character.

Funny stuff.
Just nod your head quietly when he comments about a tier list.

 

[Kaffei]

I don't mean that she cannot get it fast enough.
I mean that he can DI it.
Don't ask me why, it just works that way.
Otherwise grab > d-smash > pivot grab would be legit if he has no bike.



And, sadly, after testing buffered mashing with ESAM...
I learned that I cannot get a second regrab before like...120...

Wait, so lemme get this straight
ZSS can only regrab infinite Wario after Wario is around 120%?

 

[Yikarur]

with "you can DI away" is meant that a lot of regrabs and stuff occur after frame 50 like Yoshi can infinite Wario with the regrab occuring on frame 52, so if that's the case for other grabs, Wario has the ability to move arround and jump for 1-2 frames which is a lot for Wario because of it's mobility.

 

[DMG]

Yeah it tends to be frame 51-52, which doesn't let Wario get away. He can't airdodge cause that takes too long, and while he can jump he tends not to be able to get away from the character in time. DJ comes out, but the time it takes for him to travel a significant distance away from the grab is much more than a few frames so he tends to get grabbed anyways. However, for attacks coming out on frame 51/52, he can bike to stop it/reduce it.

 

[OverLade]

MK ***** Wario. He literally has no guaranteed options in this matchup if MK camps hard enough.

Glutonny doesn't mean anything. Have you seen how ridiculously good his Falco and MK are? Him using Wario is actually a waste of skill performancewise, because those characters are so much better than Wario.

And imo Wario loses to most of top tier...

And Anti and Ally don´t even main Wario, still take matches and Anti even pulled a set of M2K.

You just named 3 of the most talented players in the world and tried to use them as justification for a character being good. Anti, Ally and Glutonny could all beat 90% of everyone with any decent character.

Even players like Reflex and Bassem are incredibly talented but if you're not absolutely godlike you won't be beating top MKs and you probably won't be placing top 3 at nationals, or even top 10. Wario is a character who doesn't perform well at a national level because he has so many bad matchups.

Judging by how much marth experience the MKs over there get, I am inclined to believe they are probably better than most MKs here at the match-up.

MKs in the US player gayer by default. Thats why the matchup is believed to be so bad over here.

Europe has other MKs like Staco and Orion that place well.
Also when did Havok beat Mike with snake ._.

On some stream. Then Mike went MK and won 2-1 vs Havok's Snake. But this isn't about that...

mikehaze believes marth is much worse than wario too btw and that warios 2nd or 3rd in the game. Wario is most certainly better than marth is. Reflex your style is good in teams but not singles imo. i dont really care what you people think of what i say that much but im gonna still say what i believe

Wario is bad.

MK, Snake, Falco, Diddy, Marth and ICs are all for sure better than him. And his terrible matchup vs MK makes Olimar better as well imo. If you're not willing to run away for the entire match then you can't beat someone on an equal skill level as you, and he loses to camping terribly once he's behind. People who know how to fight Wario just zone him. If he approaches you, all you do is run backwards and bait airdodges. Camp projectiles, bait airdodges. Matchup.

 

[Yikarur]

MK ***** Wario. He literally has no guaranteed options in this matchup if MK camps hard enough.

then tell me who has this options and what they are.

 

[DMG]

Well depends on what you mean by most. MK Marth are the clear ones. He has close MU's with Snake Oli Pika, and after that the debatable ones are IC's and Falco. Lower on, Dedede wins, and then he has a lot of evenish/slight advantages.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Otherwise, you can release and regrab over and over without doing damage, but that would be stalling. So yeah.

Oh, is that so?

 

[DMG]

Oh, is that so?

WHY YES OH HA HA!

Indeed, for you see doing an infinite without doing damage removes control from the other person and excessively drags out the game. Therefore, banned under the stalling rule.

Don't grab me brah.

 

[King Funk]

u have to admit though that its pretty damn impressive kaos placed 3rd after not playing the game for so long.
also there hasn't been a mk that has ever outplaced him in europe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysgmVAH2jkw

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I need a gif of that spotdodge off...

Also, even though I play neither, I think Marth is better than Wario characterwise.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

WHY YES OH HA HA!

Indeed, for you see doing an infinite without doing damage removes control from the other person and excessively drags out the game. Therefore, banned under the stalling rule.

Don't grab me brah.

Its not my fault that I cant do any damage, if you would stop mashing, I could just damage you and advance the game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS has an easier time grabbing Wario than other characters, Orion, not a harder time. She has faster ground speed and can cover his landings with grab from a greater distance.

In addition, the Dsmash infinite works if the bike is on-stage. Wario can NOT DI away from a grab release to beat dsmash, he can only bike out. If Wario's bike is on-stage and ZSS lands a dsmash or grab, it's a stock.

 

[Raziek]

i dont get why luigi is ahead of wolf on the tier list when looking at the matchup chart. wolf has so many less bad matchups than luigi but somehow he is under luigi on the tier list?

Wolf is going up.

Won't say how much, but he'll probably be the one who gained the most spots this list. (Like really, we had him below LUIGI?)

Not sure, but I think Kirby took the biggest fall.

YAY AMBIGUITY! Mid-tier will be the interesting one this time around.

(Copy/pasted because it's more relevant here than the original location.)

 

[Nike.]

Posting because Raziek and Mr.R are watching this thread.
Shaya, get in here.

 

[Raziek]

Marth convention go go?

 

[Ripple]

ZSS has an easier time grabbing Wario than other characters, Orion, not a harder time. She has faster ground speed and can cover his landings with grab from a greater distance.

In addition, the Dsmash infinite works if the bike is on-stage. Wario can NOT DI away from a grab release to beat dsmash, he can only bike out. If Wario's bike is on-stage and ZSS lands a dsmash or grab, it's a stock.

d-smash infinite? you can't stun someone more than 2x in the air until they touch the ground again, at least thats what happens when I tested it