Official BBR Tier List v5

[Ripple]

If you pick D3 on me then you better know the matchup.

or we could just wait for you to make 1 mistake and then infinite you

 

[Deleted member]

Agreeing with Seagull that D3 should know the MU. It's not as easy as "Wolf gets countered by him=free win". Most Wolves have made it a point to learn this MU.

Choice is probably the best Wolf at fighting D3.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Untrue. The only D3 that has ever given me trouble is Coney and we used to play for hours every week in the fall and winter. If the Wolf knows the matchup then it's still not as bad as people make it seem. It's not anywhere extremely bad as Fox vs Ics/Sheik/Pika. It's more or less like Falco's bad matchups with Pikachu and Ics (Falco isn't that bad with either character) except we can't be 0-deathed. It seems people have this given mentality that ever since Kain vs'd Coney at SiiS4 that the match is terribad. Coney has played me to the point I know everything he is going to do and he learned how to fight Wolf from me, so it's no surprise he beat Kain who doesn't have as much experience in the matchup. Realistically there are almost no D3's in the midwest. I can't even name more then like 3-4 GOOD D3's off the top of my head in all of North America. Yes D3 beats Wolf, but not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be O_O. If you pick D3 on me then you better know the matchup.

Kain was also on little to no sleep because of the car ride there.

People from IL/WI were sleeping at the tournament because they couldn't get much if any on the car ride.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Excel, I didnt say that dehf was the best at the sonic matchup, but what im saying is that YOU SHOULDNT HAVE TO BE the best at the matchup to beat a character that you inherently hard counter the way people seem to think falco does to sonic.

 

[Espy Rose]

Wolf also has decent MUs with a lot of the high tiers. Can Sonic say the same? Also, how often is a Wolf going to encounter a D3 in tourney compared to a Sonic encountering Lucario and Falco?

And it says MK da bess. Duh.

Edit: Sniped by da bess Wofl.

You can't say the same because there's no updated Sonic MU sheet.

And it doesn't matter if Sonic's overall MUs are worse than Wolf's. What matters is the match ups that count. Last time I checked, Sonic's only concerns in S-B tier is Lucario, a small problem (pretty negligible if you have decent experience in the MU) with Falco, and MAYBE Olimar.

Wolf? Pikachu, King Dedede, Wario, and Ice Climbers.

Yes, Wolf doesn't get SUPER countered by them, but they all have tools against Wolf that put him in terrible positions, whereas the worst thing Lucario can do to Sonic is live long.

As you move farther down the list, Wolf's match ups quickly turn to his favor or into even match ups. Sonic more or less has the same pattern, but it fluctuates a bit more. For example, Sonic goes even with most of E-Tier, and even has a losing match up to Yoshi.

Point being, Wolf and Sonic should have very similar MU spreads. On average, considering the entire cast, Wolf probably has a better looking MU spread. However, concerning viable characters that you will most likely run into at tournaments, you're just as likely to have just as much trouble with Wolf as with Sonic, if not more.

One reason I believe this is still difficult to gauge is because of how dominating Meta Knight is (and to a smaller effect, Diddy Kong and Snake. Maybe even Falco), since they poop on all the characters that give Wolf and Sonic a hard time.

 

[DMG]

Untrue. The only D3 that has ever given me trouble is Coney and we used to play for hours every week in the fall and winter. If the Wolf knows the matchup then it's still not as bad as people make it seem. It's not anywhere extremely bad as Fox vs Ics/Sheik/Pika. It's more or less like Falco's bad matchups with Pikachu and Ics (Falco isn't that bad with either character) except we can't be 0-deathed. It seems people have this given mentality that ever since Kain vs'd Coney at SiiS4 that the match is terribad. Coney has played me to the point I know everything he is going to do and he learned how to fight Wolf from me, so it's no surprise he beat Kain who doesn't have as much experience in the matchup. Realistically there are almost no D3's in the midwest. I can't even name more then like 3-4 GOOD D3's off the top of my head in all of North America. Yes D3 beats Wolf, but not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be O_O. If you pick D3 on me then you better know the matchup.

I'll put it this way:

Dedede vs Wolf is not a soft counter, and it's not even. It's a hard counter at best for Wolf. 7:3 or 75:25 doesn't sound unrealistic for that matchup at all.

or we could just wait for you to make 1 mistake and then infinite you

Gotta remember standing infinites banned. That would probably apply to the ledge infinite as well.

Basically getting out of an incredibly hard matchup (being worse than 8-2) on a "technicality".

Agreeing with Seagull that D3 should know the MU. It's not as easy as "Wolf gets countered by him=free win". Most Wolves have made it a point to learn this MU.

Choice is probably the best Wolf at fighting D3.

There aren't many free win matchups in Brawl, but that's not a reason to assume Wolf vs Dedede is anything close to reasonable lol.

"It's still winnable, it can't be that bad. Barely a hard counter, 65:35"

"Well Timmy, a hard counter is still winnable, it's just incredibly unlikely. Therefore, on a realistic evaluation of the matchup, it would be fair to assess that Dedede has a very significant advantage that cannot be discredited simply for being 'winnable by some possible means.' So please, talk about that matchup from the perspective of it being a hard counter, not from the perspective of being winnable. Winnable is a loser, broader term that can encompass the vast majority of matchups, and on a more extreme level even encompass 'impossible' matchups where the opponent makes a grievous error that allows you to win. "

"Thanks Mister!"

 

[Deleted member]

@Espy: Again, Ice Climbers isn't a counter to Wolf. They have an advantage on him, sure, but I'd only put it at 55:45. Fox is the space furry who has problems with the eskimos.

 

[da K.I.D.]

espy, for the time being I would appreciate if you phrased your thoughts on matchups, as your thoughts on matchups, and not complete fact. because you KNOW im going to disagree with you on the yoshi matchup.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@Espy: Again, Ice Climbers isn't a counter to Wolf. They have an advantage on him, sure, but I'd only put it at 55:45. Fox is the space furry who has problems with the eskimos.

That's optimistic. :/ D-Throw chaingrab for free, Wolf's B-Air can get get powershield -> grabbed, and Wolf's moves aren't particularly amazing at separating them quickly. It's rather difficult.

 

[Deleted member]

Retreating Fairs are golden. Powershield grabbing Wolf out of his Bair? When it's spaced correctly? Shine usually is pretty good at disrupting IC's and Wolf also is good at keeping away and avoiding the grab, which is kinda essential because...it's IC's.

It's not bad at all. :/

 

[DMG]

No wonder people think Wolf is so good, when all of his bad matchups are supposedly 55:45 and 6:4 lol.

 

[Exceladon City]

Excel, I didnt say that dehf was the best at the sonic matchup, but what im saying is that YOU SHOULDNT HAVE TO BE the best at the matchup to beat a character that you inherently hard counter the way people seem to think falco does to sonic.

Uh, you seem to forget that despite suiciding, he still brought it back and almost won. You know how many Falcos I've gotten over on just from them not being well versed in the MU? I GUARANTEE that if DEHF spent like a day playing a good Sonic, that he probably would've beaten Espy. Lucario is a character that beats Sonic because of his character traits. When he doesn't die and he gets stronger and Sonic can't kill Lucario at a reasonable percent. See the problem? Falco on the other hand is a character who pretty much invalidates like 3 tiers worth of characters with 1 move, jab. Sonic is invalidated by that jab as well. If jab lands, it sets Falco up to do 30-90% worth of bull****. If he can't jab you, Bair or Dair will work just as well. Go play Shugo and find out for yourself. I got 3 stocked countless times.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Retreating Fairs are golden. Powershield grabbing Wolf out of his Bair? When it's spaced correctly? Shine usually is pretty good at disrupting IC's and Wolf also is good at keeping away and avoiding the grab, which is kinda essential because...it's IC's.

It's not bad at all. :/

You only have so much space to retreating F-Air. Ice Climbers' run speed makes it impossible to say that it'd be spaced perfectly every time.

Shine is only a "reliable" option here when Wolf is FORCED to do it after making a mistake, and if it's read and shielded, he loses a stock.

Basically, it boils down to, "Ice Climbers powershield an aerial and run toward Wolf. Wolf is now forced to make a split decision, and if it's read, he loses a stock." Wolf is good at keeping away, but all of his offensive options are pretty risky in the end, much like the other two space animals (though because of Falco's separation options, it's probably better for him than Wolf and Fox; Wolf has it better than Fox due to aerial mobility).

 

[Deleted member]

No wonder people think Wolf is so good, when all of his bad matchups are supposedly 55:45 and 6:4 lol.

I'd say D3 is 65:35. Feel better?

Just being realistic about the others. Wolf has tools to deal with them.

 

[Juushichi]

I think Wolf-D3 might be 7-3, imo. Just like Mario vs D3, MK and Marth. There I said it. GW vs Mario is like 65-35 (w/CP)/60-40 (neutrals)

Then again, I don't know where Wolf vs D3 CP's come into play.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Meta Knight vs. Marth is -not- 7-3. >_>

It's actually fairly close to even; at least, as far as Meta Knight matchups go.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wolf vs Ice Climbers isn't that bad, where are people getting this idea from?, I don't even think Wolf vs Wario is bad even with the CG Wario can't just Bite out all of his approaches/moves like he can with Fox, can't speak for the others though.

 

[Deleted member]

Wolf vs Ice Climbers isn't that bad, where are people getting this idea from?, I don't even think Wolf vs Wario is bad even with the CG Wario can't just Bite out all of his approaches/moves like he can with Fox, can't speak for the others though.

Not to mention Wario's CG is also percentage dependent.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wolf vs Ice Climbers isn't that bad, where are people getting this idea from?, I don't even think Wolf vs Wario is bad even with the CG Wario can't just Bite out all of his approaches/moves like he can with Fox, can't speak for the others though.

It might not be -terrible-, but it's not good, either. I think I would settle for 6-4. As an aside, I try not to exaggerate numbers, perhaps to the point where things seem a little more even than they actually are. It's definitely doable, but, it's pretty difficult.

Not to mention Wario's CG is also percentage dependent.

Doesn't stop him, or anyone else with a percentage-based chaingrab, for that matter. Look at Pikachu.

 

[Mew2King]

Meta Knight vs. Marth is -not- 7-3. >_>

It's actually fairly close to even; at least, as far as Meta Knight matchups go.

i think its at least 6:4 mk

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh my grammer sucks, I do think it's a bad MU, but it's not as bad as some people are making it out to be.

 

[DMG]

I'd say D3 is 65:35. Feel better?

Just being realistic about the others. Wolf has tools to deal with them.

65:35 means that matchup is on the verge of being a hard counter. I severely doubt Wolf vs Dedede is merely 65:35 even with infinite banned. While we're at it, let's go ahead and call Marth vs Ness 65:35. No infinite, so that obviously means it's not a hard counter. lol

Not to mention Wario's CG is also percentage dependent.

That's not a problem. If he were like Pikachu where it was extremely limited in scope, sure. But the window he has once that % is fufilled... is pretty significant. It's not "Oh hey Wario has to start the CG somewhere from 30-40%" but rather "Oh hey Wario got you to 30%, better hope he doesn't grab you until you reach 70-80%).

Actually here's a good way to prove Dedede vs Wolf isn't 65:35. Wario vs Wolf, how bad do you think the matchup is? Do you think that's merely a soft counter? Or somewhere inbetween soft and hard counter? Inbetween would be 65:35. That ratio would definitely suit the Wario vs Wolf matchup. Now, Dedede on the other hand, is even harder for Wolf than Wario is. If he's even harder, how could the matchup stay as 65:35?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

i think its at least 6:4 mk

Again, as far as Meta Knight match-ups go.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wario vs Wolf? 6:4 Wario with the CG imo. Without the CG, the MU isn't bad at all Wolf has a lot of good traits to handle it, with the exception of his weight and fall speed that get him into a lot of CG's/locks.

 

[Juushichi]

I was saying it was Mario 30-70 DDD/MK/Marth, Reflex.

MK vs Marth is probably no more than 60-40.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was saying it was Mario 30-70 DDD/MK/Marth, Reflex.

MK vs Marth is probably no more than 60-40.

Okay, hah. Sorry. I read that as Mario-Dedede is 30-70, much like Marth/Meta Knight.

 

[Lokinario]

I don't think Mario : MK is 30 : 70. It's not that much bad for Mario, is it? Maybe something like 35 : 65 would be more precise.

 

[Chuee]

No, Mario v MK is awful lol.

 

[_Kain_]

Well you guys always speak on how abundant chars are affecting the tier lists. Their are barely any Pika's, Wario's, and IC's for that matter. Wario is bad IMO for Wolf with the CG, but you know something? Only like 2 even do the CG right, and if your close to the edge of a platform or stage it doesn't even work. That mixed with Wolf's bair pretty good at keeping him from getting inside even with his AD shenanigans. Wario's kill moves are easily telegraphed. Other than fart there really isn't anything to fear, if your under him in the sky he's gonna try to fart if he has one or uair but wolf has good aerial mobility to jus move away from him in the air if he chooses to chase you.

If ICs was bad for Wolf, I wouldn't of been able to beat 2 IC players. PSing bair, you guys make it sound so easy. If it's getting PSed to the point where he can dash grab it that means it was telegraphed and easy to see coming. Wolf can't seperate IC's? Wolf forces ppl to shield constantly cause of fear of his bair. Once IC's shields dwindle a DACUS will seperate them perfectly not to mention Nana's shield fails so much.

DDD is yes a hard MU, but it is the only one that Wolf should even fear going into tournament. The other chars barely even show up enough to even be a threat. Other than DDD Wolf does fine against most of A tier and up, which is what matters

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If ICs was bad for Wolf, I wouldn't of been able to beat 2 IC players.

Really? That's your argument?

 

[Ishiey]

For all of Wolf's CG matchups, it depends on if you're considering CPs. When you can strike FD and go someplace with platforms or a stage that allows you to run away, CG MUs are significantly more doable. It really sucks though, because Wolf can camp some characters pretty hard on FD but if they have an adequate CGing secondary the tables get turned Only MU that's worse than 60:40 (atm, current metagame and all that crap) is D3 though, Wolf can be pretty damn good at camping and running away and other stupid ****.

Wario's CG starts at 59% if fresh but idk after what point you can't start the CG, someone should really test that out because if it's anything before ~110% (or whenever Wolf would be dying from an uair) platform camping during those percents will really help the MU. It also helps that Wario doesn't have a guaranteed kill out of his dthrow, unlike Pikachu's footstool > QAL finish and D3's ledge dtilt. That + Wario's inability to reliably get a grab (mediocre grab range, average-ish ground speed, proper SDI out of nair prevents a grab followup) make it around 60:40 I'd say.

EDIT: Dammit, Kain keeps ninjaing people lol. I'd throw in Shine for something that helps out the Wario MU though, jumpshine is great defensively as long as you're careful about falling into uairs afterwards.

 

[_Kain_]

Really? That's your argument?

I just explained the rest. You said it's bad cause they can PS dash grab...they can do that to everyone by that logic? Thing is Bair isn't easy to PS because it comes out so fast. If it's being PSed then the player is being predictable. And I'm saying that as an argument cause if it's as bad a MU as ppl are claiming it to be then why was I able to beat 2 of it's top players? Who have plenty knowledge of the Wolf MU?

 

[DMG]

Well, it's not exactly easy to live a fresh Fthrow at close to 200% (even if you used Fthrow 10 times before you started the CG, it would unstale during the CG obv). I mean with good DI and not being really close to the edge helps, but living that will put you very close towards the threshold of the boundaries and make recovering not fun. It's not entirely on that DK Upb Break helpless status, but it's pretty close to a guaranteed kill. If you do happen to be at the edge, then it actually is a kill.

Also KOS-MOS Yay! I see you reading lol

 

[Xyless]

Really? That's your argument?

To be fair, they're amazing ICs, not just standard ones.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Ic's can't PS Grab wolfs bair, Grab comes out in 5 frames while wolf is only able to be punished by moves 4 frames and under on block.

Jason it's about 55:45 MK, The gimps is what gives MK the upper hand. Other than that Marth can compete in every other aspect.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I dont complain about either of those matchups.

Best falco wouldnt lose to sonic if the character had as big an advantage on sonic as some of the sonics seem to think.

People are human, anyone ehre remember FOW vs Tyrant?
Exactly, the matchup isn't too bad, but Falco has an advantage for sure.

Think moar.

same goes for ICs,

NO!


Seriously dude, just because you suck against IC's doesnt mean Sonic does. Stop getting grabbed you scrub.

Espy thinks Lucario is a hard counter and ICs arent that bad.
where as I thik the ICs are a hard counter and lucario isnt that bad.

yes the character that is capable of smacking their shield safely and having the ability to cancel out his attack and remain completely non-committed, can separate the IC's and maintain pressure on Nana while avoiding Popo and everything else is hard countered.

The character who has the impressive vertical movement capability has no method of attacking the IC's without extreme risk.

The IC's were never considered a hard counter because their capabilities when set against Sonic's, do provide them an advantage, but is far, far from giving them a major one.


Again, just because you suck balls at the matchup does not mean its a hard counter.

You said the exact same things about Luigi and DDD and Wolf.

regardless, neither of those 2 matchups are as bad as ddd vs wolf. [/COLOR]

Don't get grabbed. Wolf has the tools to avoid getting the business end of a stick from DDD, so while it is a bad matchup, it is certainly not unwinnable by any means.

 

[Exceladon City]

Stuff I agree with.

He also says the same about Toon Link.

 

[Ripple]

why are people saying " well its this ratio without a chaingrab and this ratio with the chaingrab."?

its the same ratio with the chaingrab regardless. there is no rule that limits chaingrabs like infinites so a new ratio isn't necessary.

it's like saying, "well if I don't use this move X times then its a whole new ratio again"

 

[Juushichi]

I don't think Mario : MK is 30 : 70. It's not that much bad for Mario, is it? Maybe something like 35 : 65 would be more precise.

No, it's that bad and I feel like Mario mains do not throw in CP's in their matchups. It's just barely not 70:30 in MK's favor on an acceptable Neutral alone (which is really only like FD unless you're just really comfortable on another stage).

Any place that Mario feels comfortable and is halfway decent on (Brinstar, I'll say Halberd, BF, maybe RC) MK just outclasses him on. Just like ~90% of the rest of the cast. God help you if Mario happens to win game one or two, which he still really shouldn't.

 

[Z'zgashi]

why are people saying " well its this ratio without a chaingrab and this ratio with the chaingrab."?

its the same ratio with the chaingrab regardless. there is no rule that limits chaingrabs like infinites so a new ratio isn't necessary.

it's like saying, "well if I don't use this move X times then its a whole new ratio again"

If I only taunt twice, the match up becomes one helluva lot easier, I'll tell you that.