Official BBR Tier List v5

[_Kain_]

why are people saying " well its this ratio without a chaingrab and this ratio with the chaingrab."?

its the same ratio with the chaingrab regardless. there is no rule that limits chaingrabs like infinites so a new ratio isn't necessary.

it's like saying, "well if I don't use this move X times then its a whole new ratio again"

Because if they don't happen to get said CG their gonna get LOLOLOLOLOL ***** cause their character gets outclassed without it

 

[ShadowLink84]

he also says the same about toon link.

rage

10rage

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

why are people saying " well its this ratio without a chaingrab and this ratio with the chaingrab."?

its the same ratio with the chaingrab regardless. there is no rule that limits chaingrabs like infinites so a new ratio isn't necessary.

it's like saying, "well if I don't use this move X times then its a whole new ratio again"

I'm saying it because the CG is the only thing that is pushing it in Wario's favor to a 60:40.

 

[DMG]

Because if they don't happen to get said CG their gonna get LOLOLOLOLOL ***** cause their character gets outclassed without it

Except Wario. At best, on your CP and assuming for whatever reason he is incapable of CGing, it's even. You can say what you can about Pika or IC's, but the fat man ain't scared of your shenanigans.

 

[_Kain_]

Except Wario. At best, on your CP and assuming for whatever reason he is incapable of CGing, it's even. You can say what you can about Pika or IC's, but the fat man ain't scared of your shenanigans.

Touche' >_>

 

[da K.I.D.]

No wonder people think Wolf is so good, when all of his bad matchups are supposedly 55:45 and 6:4 lol.

not to mention that apparently every single wolf player has perfect spacing and timing on 100% percent of their bairs.

speaking of perfect bair spacing, what affect would shield sdi grabbing have on wolfs bair?

Uh, you seem to forget that despite suiciding, he still brought it back and almost won. You know how many Falcos I've gotten over on just from them not being well versed in the MU? I GUARANTEE that if DEHF spent like a day playing a good Sonic, that he probably would've beaten Espy. Lucario is a character that beats Sonic because of his character traits. When he doesn't die and he gets stronger and Sonic can't kill Lucario at a reasonable percent. See the problem? Falco on the other hand is a character who pretty much invalidates like 3 tiers worth of characters with 1 move, jab. Sonic is invalidated by that jab as well. If jab lands, it sets Falco up to do 30-90% worth of bull****. If he can't jab you, Bair or Dair will work just as well. Go play Shugo and find out for yourself. I got 3 stocked countless times.

I like how youre trying to educate me on the character that I play like I dont already know what hes capable of.
also, if jab is ****** you that hard, you need to step your SDI game up. People do it to me all the time.
and seriously, if youre 'getting over' on SOOO many falcos, how can you still say sonic loses that bad. dont forget that shugo is like 15 times better than you as a player, matchups dont account for skill gaps like that.

Wolf vs Ice Climbers isn't that bad, where are people getting this idea from?, I don't even think Wolf vs Wario is bad even with the CG Wario can't just Bite out all of his approaches/moves like he can with Fox, can't speak for the others though.

because FOX is going to be approaching, ever...

I'm saying it because the CG is the only thing that is pushing it in Wario's favor to a 60:40.

CGs are the only thing that lets ICs win a lot of their matches. Does that mean they should have 2 completely different matchup charts for with Cgs and without them?

 

[DMG]

Shield SDI grabbing even at max range would be possible, but incredibly hard. Instead of falling with Bair, you could rise with it to avoid that, but yeah.

 

[_Kain_]

not to mention that apparently every single wolf player has perfect spacing and timing on 100% percent of their bairs.

speaking of perfect bair spacing, what affect would shield sdi grabbing have on wolfs bair?

I like how youre trying to educate me on the character that I play.
also, if jab is ****** you that hard, you need to step your SDI game up. People do it to me all the time.


because FOX is going to be approaching, ever...

CGs are the only thing that lets ICs win a lot of their matches. Does that mean they should have 2 completely different matchup charts for with Cgs and without them?

[/COLOR]

NO Wolf player thinks they will have perfect spacing. You don't seem to get that only chars that can even capitalize on mispaced bairs are those with good grab ranges, and most of those have nothing even significant on Wolf (cept DDD)Wolf's bairs don't even have to be PERFECTLY spaced to avoid most things thats how good it's range is

And LOL Fox doesn't have to approach? Cus his lasers do so much DMG and the point of them isn't to jus refresh his moves which have poor range? He has to approach sometime if he wants to do any significant DMG instead of 1% that most likely won't always hit since IC's are short. Fox has nothing safe on shield against IC's. Everything he does has to be risky.

And pretty sure Red Ryu wasn't talking about IC's CGs just the other chars

 

[ShadowLink84]

I like how youre trying to educate me on the character that I play like I dont already know what hes capable of.

You're an idiot, how can he not try to educate you?

also, if jab is ****** you that hard, you need to step your SDI game up. People do it to me all the time.

If you need to SDI, means you were hit.
n fact, Falco doesn't even need to continously jab, he uses it to simply space Sonic.
frame move with range and disjoint of a sword.
I dare say its almost as sexy as MK's Ftilt.

Which is why its so good, anyone can SDI anything, the key issue isnt that though its rthe fac that his jab sets up into many things, its the fact his jab is used to invalidate many of Sonic's options.

Its the fact his jab is sex.

and seriously, if youre 'getting over' on SOOO many falcos, how can you still say sonic loses that bad. dont forget that shugo is like 15 times better than you as a player, matchups dont account for skill gaps like that.

That is because matchup ratios equate high level play between opponents of similar skill. Its obvious they do not account for large skillgaps, that doesn't change the facts, that doesnt change the characters or the gameplay.

because FOX is going to be approaching, ever...

Because fox is NEVER going to have to approach anyone, ever.

CGs are the only thing that lets ICs win a lot of their matches. Does that mean they should have 2 completely different matchup charts for with Cgs and without them?[/COLOR]

WHAT!?

Its official, K.I.D. knows very little after 3 years.

 

[da K.I.D.]

@ kain
fair point on the wolf bit.

but as for the fox thing. falcos lasers dont really do any damage either, but both fox and falco have a way to deal COMPLETELY safe damage from the other side of the screen. and no player is going to let the other guys tack damage from the other side of the stage with no way to retaliate. So you know what that means? the other guy is being forced to approach. and fox has the tools to subsequently own other peoples approaches.

and as for the IC point, what im saying is no matter the character, having seperate matchup ratios with and without a specific CG or tactic being utilized is completely asinine.

 

[_Kain_]

@ kain
fair point on the wolf bit.

but as for the fox thing. falcos lasers dont really do any damage either, but both fox and falco have a way to deal COMPLETELY safe damage from the other side of the screen. and no player is going to let the other guys tack damage from the other side of the stage with no way to retaliate. So you know what that means? the other guy is being forced to approach. and fox has the tools to subsequently own other peoples approaches.

and as for the IC point, what im saying is no matter the character, having ratios with and without a specific CG or tactic being utilized is completely asinine.

The difference between Fox and Falco is that his lasers wall you due to their hitstun, and is better at running away due to his phantasms. That and his upclose game is 2nd to none. Fox doesn't have that. He has no good jab, he's a character that thrives on people making mistakes because his moveset allows for him to follow up on most of what he does. He doesn't really force anything like Falco can. While his camping is useful, against ICs it isn't really significant cause it neither walls him nor really takcs on DMG cus only one of the lasers is able to even hit him, and if he ducks he can most likely dodge them.

 

[Chuee]

The difference between Fox and Falco is that his lasers wall you due to their hitstun, and is better at running away due to his phantasms. That and his upclose game is 2nd to none. Fox doesn't have that. He has no good jab, he's a character that thrives on people making mistakes because his moveset allows for him to follow up on most of what he does.

No, Fox thrives on mixups

 

[_Kain_]

No, Fox thrives on mixups

Mixups only work if a person makes a mistake. Because a mixup is making your opponent think your going to do one thing making him react to it and you do something else. Hence making a mistake. In this particluar MU, if he doesn't fall for the mixup Fox dies

 

[da K.I.D.]

btw, fox doesnt have to phantasm to run away... he can just... run away.

and if popo ducks, he cant crawl, so im going to just shoot grounded lasers to bait him into trying to punish, aka forcing the other guy to approach.

just because its very little damage doesnt mean that people are just going to be ok with fox damaging them and them not being able to retaliate.

doesnt matter how you want to rationalise it. fox forces practically every character in the game to approach him.

 

[Deleted member]

And then IC's will just run up and grab....yeah.

 

[Exceladon City]

This is not a match-up discussion.

 

[Espy Rose]

@KID: We disagree on pretty much anything already, so there's no point in telling me that you disagree with anything I say on any match up.

And, well, Poltergust goes pretty even with me, and beat Speed. Yoshi lives for eons, chaingrabs Sonic into a terrible position off level, attacks much faster over a longer range on the ground, and KOs us as early as 120%.

ICs? Didn't X beat Lain? Hylian is also an exceptional Ice Climber player, ain't he? Didn't I go pretty damn even with him? Didn't Meep go toe to toe to Shado once (this one is not rhetorical, I don't remember too well)?

Then there's Lucario. Name a single Sonic that's managed to overcome a decent Lucario in tournaments aside from X vs. Lee (whom we've already established is, while a top player, not necessarily a top Lucario).

Speed loses to June. I lose to Trela. I'm pretty sure Zucco would have little problem in dealing with the match up as well.

Just take all of that into account when you say that Yoshi doesn't beat Sonic, Ice Climbers are a hard counter, and Lucario isn't a hard counter.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

because FOX is going to be approaching, ever...

Yeah cause 1% lasers are so dangerous, on a character that is usually busy jumping in the air a lot.

Fox is gonna run away all day and shoot lasers, when fox goes for actual damage or trying to catch Wario on a punich he throws out Bite and beats almost all of his moveset, I didn't beleive it when I was told about it but Fox's limited range actually has issues with that move and Wario's mobility. But I tried out Bite on Fox's moves and it works, lol.

CGs are the only thing that lets ICs win a lot of their matches. Does that mean they should have 2 completely different matchup charts for with Cgs and without them?

Was talking about Wario like Kain said. The point with Wario, no one else, was the only reason that particular match-up was in Wario's favor is the CG. Otherwise it's even.

You could apply it to others but just for Wario I was noting that the CG was the only factor, which Wolf can avoid.

@ kain
fair point on the wolf bit.

but as for the fox thing. falcos lasers dont really do any damage either, but both fox and falco have a way to deal COMPLETELY safe damage from the other side of the screen. and no player is going to let the other guys tack damage from the other side of the stage with no way to retaliate. So you know what that means? the other guy is being forced to approach. and fox has the tools to subsequently own other peoples approaches.

and as for the IC point, what im saying is no matter the character, having seperate matchup ratios with and without a specific CG or tactic being utilized is completely asinine.

If want to ignore the fact Falco's laser's have stun while Fox's don't sure. If Falco wants to do something on IC's block he has some spacing or at least better get away and safe play, Fox on the other hand is a lot more limited in that department.

Wario vs Wolf isn't that bad because Wolf has actual spacing tools, something Fox lacks, Fox uses Zoning and mix-up to get hits in, not spacing. When all you mix-ups lose to shield grab, you know it's a bad match-up. Wolf has mix-ups that space, which is why Wario and Ice Climbers don't wreck him.

This is why DDD is better against Wolf, he doesn't care about Wolf's spacing tools as much as the others do and has an easily to set-up punishment for minor mistakes because of his grab range being as big as Alaska. Fox doesn't lose as badly against DDD because he isn't CGable, his mix-ups can afford mistakes a lot better compared to Wolf who has a CG/ledge infinite on him if it's legal.

@KID: We disagree on pretty much anything already, so there's no point in telling me that you disagree with anything I say on any match up.

And, well, Poltergust goes pretty even with me, and beat Speed. Yoshi lives for eons, chaingrabs Sonic into a terrible position off level, attacks much faster over a longer range on the ground, and KOs us as early as 120%.

ICs? Didn't X beat Lain? Hylian is also an exceptional Ice Climber player, ain't he? Didn't I go pretty damn even with him? Didn't Meep go toe to toe to Shado once (this one is not rhetorical, I don't remember too well)?

Then there's Lucario. Name a single Sonic that's managed to overcome a decent Lucario in tournaments aside from X vs. Lee (whom we've already established is, while a top player, not necessarily a top Lucario).

Speed loses to June. I lose to Trela. I'm pretty sure Zucco would have little problem in dealing with the match up as well.

Just take all of that into account when you say that Yoshi doesn't beat Sonic, Ice Climbers are a hard counter, and Lucario isn't a hard counter.

To be fair I really think you can beat Trela in the MU, but it's not gonna be easy at all. That is something after watching your matches with him seems evident.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Wolf is pretty bad...

But uh seriously re: gimmickiness.

I wouldn't call ZSS inherently gimmicky, but she does have a lot of gimmicks.

I think Peach is pretty gimmicky (and sort of bad). I think Diddy is pretty gimmicky, too. Falco is really gimmicky (lol, lasers and side-b being like 70% of Falco). A lot of bad characters are gimmicky, but so are many good characters. Being gimmicky doesn't really make a character bad. Most gimmicks are unique moves or traits, that are hard to punish in reality where there's usually a really good answer to them on paper, like bananas, lasers, stuns, etc.

Peach in partcular shares Link's problem, where she's really tough to use effectively and doesn't really pay off... at all.

 

[Espy Rose]

To be fair I really think you can beat Trela in the MU, but it's not gonna be easy at all. That is something after watching your matches with him seems evident.

It's a hard counter. That doesn't mean it's unwinnable. Hell, I've taken Trela to last hit at points, but even that is incredibly difficult because of the aura.

However, me beating Trela once isn't too big of a deal considering our record is something like...0-5 in sets.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You can't say the same because there's no updated Sonic MU sheet.

And it doesn't matter if Sonic's overall MUs are worse than Wolf's. What matters is the match ups that count. Last time I checked, Sonic's only concerns in S-B tier is Lucario, a small problem (pretty negligible if you have decent experience in the MU) with Falco, and MAYBE Olimar.

Wolf? Pikachu, King Dedede, Wario, and Ice Climbers.

Yes, Wolf doesn't get SUPER countered by them, but they all have tools against Wolf that put him in terrible positions, whereas the worst thing Lucario can do to Sonic is live long.

As you move farther down the list, Wolf's match ups quickly turn to his favor or into even match ups. Sonic more or less has the same pattern, but it fluctuates a bit more. For example, Sonic goes even with most of E-Tier, and even has a losing match up to Yoshi.

Point being, Wolf and Sonic should have very similar MU spreads. On average, considering the entire cast, Wolf probably has a better looking MU spread. However, concerning viable characters that you will most likely run into at tournaments, you're just as likely to have just as much trouble with Wolf as with Sonic, if not more.

One reason I believe this is still difficult to gauge is because of how dominating Meta Knight is (and to a smaller effect, Diddy Kong and Snake. Maybe even Falco), since they poop on all the characters that give Wolf and Sonic a hard time.

Thanks Mk .

And Wolf doesn't lose to Ics .

Wolf vs Ice Climbers isn't that bad, where are people getting this idea from?, I don't even think Wolf vs Wario is bad even with the CG Wario can't just Bite out all of his approaches/moves like he can with Fox, can't speak for the others though.

I think people just haven't played good Wolf's to know these sort of things. Based on theory craft Wolf is complete garbage because of his weight and fall speed.

It might not be -terrible-, but it's not good, either. I think I would settle for 6-4. As an aside, I try not to exaggerate numbers, perhaps to the point where things seem a little more even than they actually are. It's definitely doable, but, it's pretty difficult.

Doesn't stop him, or anyone else with a percentage-based chaingrab, for that matter. Look at Pikachu.

Pikachu Cg doesn't work past like 50-60%?

Well you guys always speak on how abundant chars are affecting the tier lists. Their are barely any Pika's, Wario's, and IC's for that matter. Wario is bad IMO for Wolf with the CG, but you know something? Only like 2 even do the CG right, and if your close to the edge of a platform or stage it doesn't even work. That mixed with Wolf's bair pretty good at keeping him from getting inside even with his AD shenanigans. Wario's kill moves are easily telegraphed. Other than fart there really isn't anything to fear, if your under him in the sky he's gonna try to fart if he has one or uair but wolf has good aerial mobility to jus move away from him in the air if he chooses to chase you.

If ICs was bad for Wolf, I wouldn't of been able to beat 2 IC players. PSing bair, you guys make it sound so easy. If it's getting PSed to the point where he can dash grab it that means it was telegraphed and easy to see coming. Wolf can't seperate IC's? Wolf forces ppl to shield constantly cause of fear of his bair. Once IC's shields dwindle a DACUS will seperate them perfectly not to mention Nana's shield fails so much.

DDD is yes a hard MU, but it is the only one that Wolf should even fear going into tournament. The other chars barely even show up enough to even be a threat. Other than DDD Wolf does fine against most of A tier and up, which is what matters

This.^

Ic's can't PS Grab wolfs bair, Grab comes out in 5 frames while wolf is only able to be punished by moves 4 frames and under on block.

Jason it's about 55:45 MK, The gimps is what gives MK the upper hand. Other than that Marth can compete in every other aspect.

Thanks for da data Craig.

Except Wario. At best, on your CP and assuming for whatever reason he is incapable of CGing, it's even. You can say what you can about Pika or IC's, but the fat man ain't scared of your shenanigans.

true .

not to mention that apparently every single wolf player has perfect spacing and timing on 100% percent of their bairs.

speaking of perfect bair spacing, what affect would shield sdi grabbing have on wolfs bair?

If Wolf plays close to the edge and platform camps then it's quite winnable. Here is a how I play against Coney for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NL-luebdhc

Also, rolling is really good against D3 for no reason .

@KID: We disagree on pretty much anything already, so there's no point in telling me that you disagree with anything I say on any match up.

And, well, Poltergust goes pretty even with me, and beat Speed. Yoshi lives for eons, chaingrabs Sonic into a terrible position off level, attacks much faster over a longer range on the ground, and KOs us as early as 120%.

ICs? Didn't X beat Lain? Hylian is also an exceptional Ice Climber player, ain't he? Didn't I go pretty damn even with him? Didn't Meep go toe to toe to Shado once (this one is not rhetorical, I don't remember too well)?

Then there's Lucario. Name a single Sonic that's managed to overcome a decent Lucario in tournaments aside from X vs. Lee (whom we've already established is, while a top player, not necessarily a top Lucario).

Speed loses to June. I lose to Trela. I'm pretty sure Zucco would have little problem in dealing with the match up as well.

Just take all of that into account when you say that Yoshi doesn't beat Sonic, Ice Climbers are a hard counter, and Lucario isn't a hard counter.

The way Shado plays Ice climbers, the matchup is 70-30 Sonic. He abuses one thing lmao, but I won't reveal his secret to the matchup because I promised him I wouldn't .

Yeah cause 1% lasers are so dangerous, on a character that is usually busy jumping in the air a lot.

Fox is gonna run away all day and shoot lasers, when fox goes for actual damage or trying to catch Wario on a punich he throws out Bite and beats almost all of his moveset, I didn't beleive it when I was told about it but Fox's limited range actually has issues with that move and Wario's mobility. But I tried out Bite on Fox's moves and it works, lol.

Was talking about Wario like Kain said. The point with Wario, no one else, was the only reason that particular match-up was in Wario's favor is the CG. Otherwise it's even.

You could apply it to others but just for Wario I was noting that the CG was the only factor, which Wolf can avoid.

If want to ignore the fact Falco's laser's have stun while Fox's don't sure. If Falco wants to do something on IC's block he has some spacing or at least better get away and safe play, Fox on the other hand is a lot more limited in that department.

Wario vs Wolf isn't that bad because Wolf has actual spacing tools, something Fox lacks, Fox uses Zoning and mix-up to get hits in, not spacing. When all you mix-ups lose to shield grab, you know it's a bad match-up. Wolf has mix-ups that space, which is why Wario and Ice Climbers don't wreck him.

This is why DDD is better against Wolf, he doesn't care about Wolf's spacing tools as much as the others do and has an easily to set-up punishment for minor mistakes because of his grab range being as big as Alaska. Fox doesn't lose as badly against DDD because he isn't CGable, his mix-ups can afford mistakes a lot better compared to Wolf who has a CG/ledge infinite on him if it's legal.

To be fair I really think you can beat Trela in the MU, but it's not gonna be easy at all. That is something after watching your matches with him seems evident.

I believe Fox beats D3 slightly though or it's even. And pretty much agreed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Shield SDI grabbing even at max range would be possible, but incredibly hard. Instead of falling with Bair, you could rise with it to avoid that, but yeah.

I notice that there are a lot of little techniques that buff/nerf ICs discovered constantly that are never going to actually help them because no one bothers.

 

[Poltergust]

And, well, Poltergust goes pretty even with me, and beat Speed. Yoshi lives for eons, chaingrabs Sonic into a terrible position off level, attacks much faster over a longer range on the ground, and KOs us as early as 120%.

Although we always have close matches (let's ignore that crew battle last week... I was tired. ), I still haven't won a set against you. >.>

 

[Exceladon City]

I've never had too many issues in the Yoshi MU. I don't think it's bad at all. A character living for eons isn't that big of an issue (DK, D3, Snake, Wario, LUCARIO), while the CG is annoying, it is pretty easy for me to avoid. I dunno maybe all the other Yoshis are too obvious? Aside from the parts about Yoshi attacks faster over longer distances, I'm usually breathing down his neck and there's like 15 other characters that kill Sonic below 120. You still have to catch him. -shrug-

 

[Kinzer]

espy, for the time being I would appreciate if you phrased your thoughts on matchups, as your thoughts on matchups, and not complete fact. because you KNOW im going to disagree with you on the yoshi matchup.

... We have got to take this kind of thing back home.

Espy, although I just now read your response, later today if you're on and when I'm done with schoolwork/not messing around with Touhous, I want to IM you about some of your particular opinions on MU (in more detail than what you said just now; if possible). Especially Yoshi. I'm on the notion that it could be even if you just played defensively and hand-selected your attacks.

That's just me though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it just seems to me that yoshi is going to be wayyy too overreliant on pivot grabs and ledge eggs against sonic and sonic beats both of those easily.

and if yoshi tries to attack you just have to space well because he has priority over us, but doesnt seem to be able to do much against sonics pressure when hes in his zone.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yoshi has plenty of "get away from me" options when Sonic is putting pressure on him.

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi vs sonic is a fairly even matchup.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yoshi has plenty of "get away from me" options when Sonic is putting pressure on him.

he has options to get away from situations, but take for example double jumping to armor an attack and reset spacing.

that works against some characters because yoshi is really fast in the air and can get away from people.

doesnt work on sonic because he can just run right back up there. and its the same juggle situation all over again.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pikachu Cg doesn't work past like 50-60%?

Depends on the character he's doing it on. I wasn't speaking in relation to Wolf, so much as chaingrabbing characters in general.

 

[Espy Rose]

In reference to Pikachu dthrow chaingrabbing Wolf:

- The chaingrab works until 115%.
- Pikachu can dthrow to footstool on the final throw.
- Pikachu can then QAL to force a jab lock on the Wolf.
- Pikachu can do whatever he wants.

 

[Goldenadept]

he just has to grab wolf in the first place which isnt easy given his awful grab range and set ups and wolfs aerial mobility and spacing game

but yeah, pika really sucks for wolf with that grab ;~;

 

[Chuee]

he just has to grab wolf in the first place which isnt easy given his awful grab range and set ups and wolfs aerial mobility and spacing game

but yeah, pika really sucks for wolf with that grab ;~;

His setups are actually good.
Uair and dtilt combo into grab, and his dash grab is pretty good.

 

[Spelt]

pikachu definitely does not have an awful grab range.
and it's vertical range is AMAZING.
horizontal range is average.
pivot grab is pivot grab.
and dash grab kinda sucks

 

[Goldenadept]

his dash grab always seemed pretty atrocious to me, like a normal characters range but telegraphed more

never been set up from dtilt but uair can rock wolf really well

 

[Chuee]

dtilt can if it trips.
I always thought Pika's dash grab had really good range?

 

[Goldenadept]

i dunno, he's really small, its like his roll is the same length as a normal sized characters grab
maybe cause he's still moving forwards while he does it?
never seemed that great to me

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi vs sonic is a fairly even matchup.

I agree, but I think it's slightly in Yoshi's favor since Sonic dies much earlier, has priority issues, and doesn't respond well to a pressuring Yoshi. Sonic has his own things in the match-up, such as his combo ability, spacing game, and counterpicks, but I think Yoshi edges out overall.

he has options to get away from situations, but take for example double jumping to armor an attack and reset spacing.

that works against some characters because yoshi is really fast in the air and can get away from people.

doesnt work on sonic because he can just run right back up there. and its the same juggle situation all over again.

Why would we use the heavy-armor on double-jump to reset spacing? It's used to directly counter moves (it's not all that reliable anyways, so this point is irrelevant). Also, Sonic doesn't juggle Yoshi that well, he's just good at getting Yoshi from the ground to the air so it just seems that way.

 

[Conviction]

Lol I feel like Orion because I never do this but

Wolf vs Ice Climbers isn't that bad, where are people getting this idea from?, I don't even think Wolf vs Wario is bad even with the CG Wario can't just Bite out all of his approaches/moves like he can with Fox, can't speak for the others though.

*sigh* No bite doesn't beat every approach Fox has against Wario, and why is Fox approaching? Did he leave his laser in his Arwing before he dropped down?

Not to mention Wario's CG is also percentage dependent.

Then we just eat T-jolts until (55%?) precent and so the chaingrab can't work

why are people saying " well its this ratio without a chaingrab and this ratio with the chaingrab."?

its the same ratio with the chaingrab regardless. there is no rule that limits chaingrabs like infinites so a new ratio isn't necessary.

it's like saying, "well if I don't use this move X times then its a whole new ratio again"

This to an extent, because the chaingrab is always looming

Because if they don't happen to get said CG their gonna get LOLOLOLOLOL ***** cause their character gets outclassed without it

This too because it might be hard to land in actual play

The difference between Fox and Falco is that his lasers wall you due to their hitstun, and is better at running away due to his phantasms. That and his upclose game is 2nd to none. Fox doesn't have that. He has no good jab, he's a character that thrives on people making mistakes because his moveset allows for him to follow up on most of what he does. He doesn't really force anything like Falco can. While his camping is useful, against ICs it isn't really significant cause it neither walls him nor really takcs on DMG cus only one of the lasers is able to even hit him, and if he ducks he can most likely dodge them.

You just said Fox doesn't have a good jab? Smh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsR-m0mrLSM&playnext=1&list=PL92DB300DC71EB492

Thriving off mistakes only? He can't force anything? He can't run away like Falco?
1. Lasers force approach because they cause damage hitstun or no hitstun
2. Doesn't every character in a sense thrive off mistakes? Sounds like theorycraft
3. Run speed, walk speed, vertical speed = good run away game
4. ICs can't duck under lasers

btw, fox doesnt have to phantasm to run away... he can just... run away.

and if popo ducks, he cant crawl, so im going to just shoot grounded lasers to bait him into trying to punish, aka forcing the other guy to approach.

just because its very little damage doesnt mean that people are just going to be ok with fox damaging them and them not being able to retaliate.

doesnt matter how you want to rationalise it. fox forces practically every character in the game to approach him.

Quoted this because it explains what I saying.

Only thing wrong here is you don't have to ground laser

And then IC's will just run up and grab....yeah.

No

Also, Bair+IC's tration=No grab.

In reference to Pikachu dthrow chaingrabbing Wolf:

- The chaingrab works until 115%.
- Pikachu can dthrow to footstool on the final throw.
- Pikachu can then QAL to force a jab lock on the Wolf.
- Pikachu can do whatever he wants.

Can Pika do the 2-4 thing to Fox???

he just has to grab wolf in the first place which isnt easy given his awful grab range and set ups and wolfs aerial mobility and spacing game

but yeah, pika really sucks for wolf with that grab ;~;

We feel your pain.

His setups are actually good.
Uair and dtilt combo into grab, and his dash grab is pretty good.

Yeah it also sucks when you think you can jump around Pika and all of a sudden you get grabbed out of the air


That was fun I might do it more often.

 

[Espy Rose]

Not sure. I'd have to ask K Prime. He knows a ton about the chaingrabs.