Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[san.]

It's only speculation how Jigglypuff would fare without the LGL. That said, I don't agree with a majority of the numbers.

I think the ledge isn't particularly effective for running out the timer, since she'll just end up dodging a lot of things being thrown at her. Ironically it feels more like a tool to get hits in. Air camping imo is much easier.

 

[Albert.]

why are people still talking about brawl in the "lgl" or "nolgl" sense

I will never enter a tourney that allows planking (through a no-lgl ruleset)

 

[Doc King]

King Dedede's matchups imo:

-3:
-2:
-1:
+0:
+1:
+2:
+3:
+4:

 

[stingers]

ROB is definitely a +3 possibly bordering on +4 imhooooooooo

/hate

 

[Doc King]

ROB is definitely a +3 possibly bordering on +4 imhooooooooo

/hate

Against Dedede?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I can ovuch for Stingers, D3 ***** the **** out of ROB.

 

[stingers]

dedede against ROB

as in

ROB loses
badly

 

[Doc King]

I can ovuch for Stingers, D3 ***** the **** out of ROB.

I don't really see how he completely ***** Rob when Rob can't get gimped at all. D3 doesn't have too many advanced techniques that can be used a lot on rob.

I probably just don't know the matchup too well, can you guys mind explaining some stuff to me?

 

[stingers]

well, he has one advanced technique where you tilt the control stick forward just a tad from a neutral position and he moves across the ground at a slow pace, however, he is able to perform any action out of this. also, its impossible to trip during it...it's pretty useful.

basically you just spam that against ROB, in combination with occasionally pressing whatever button you have the 'shield' action mapped to, and it effectively limits all of his options. pretty cool =D

 

[Nefarious B]

Noone Cares.

But let's be real, Yoshi matchups are right up there with Shaya *****ing about Diddy
at the tippity top of the Don't Give a **** Tier List

 

[Chavo1]

wutever...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

A solid advantage on sheik without a LGL? I don't think so. How would jiggs even benefit from not having a LGL? You can't effectively plank sheik she has some of the best tools in the game to stop planking.

I've never played a good Sheik, so it was speculation on my part. Can you explain some of Sheik's anti-planking tools to me?

the lgl yields a 4 point difference in the fox matchup?

Yes. Fox will lose if he loses the percentage lead against a good Jigglypuff. That makes a pretty large difference.

 

[Shaya]

But let's be real, Yoshi matchups are right up there with Shaya *****ing about Diddy
at the tippity top of the Don't Give a **** Tier List

Wait.
You're saying that you don't care that diddy kong is broken?

Sheesh.

I play ZSS vs Marth in like... 90% of my played matches these days.
She has an extremely hard time getting off the ledge against Marth, is susceptible to bair gimps if she uses her down b, and can't land well against Marth either. I s'pose she can do the same thing to Marth in those 3 categories, but I genuinely find it easier to do against her than most characters. If it wasn't for ZSS being near guaranteed to have a lead due to her early items (well, I guess you could sit on the other side of the stage during that but eh) it would seem like a reasonably clear cut loss - the disadvantaged positions ZSS can be put into are quite devastating. What ZSS can 'get away with' with really smart use of her grab, neutral air, uair oos and you failing and getting hit by down smash is quite a lot, even though in theory land Marth shouldn't be having issues with any of those other than uair oos. Her neutral air is the only thing (other than fail reaction to down air / down b) that stops herself from getting infinitely horizontally juggled (Marth having the same air speed, disjoints plus a noticeably faster fast fall are very strong key points). Her shield pressure (well spaced dtilts, jabs) all can be hard read into a tipper or dolphin slash, a good sliding walk jab/ftilts ruins her in the air due to the lack of 'arcs', and at best she can clash with neutral air and then perhaps get an uair (badly spaced + shes lower to the ground)/utilt.

I don't mind whether it's +1 or 0 tbh. I feel a lot of Marth's 'evens' have slight tips of power in Marth's favour that come into play when the right choice is made by a (generally) better character but are otherwise even (think dedede v marth likely being in his favour minus the cg; look how strongly a Marth can beat a dedede if he can avoid the grab - that kind of thought process within match ups)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Cause he's an awful character that gets out-spaced and suffers from a lack of options in the match-up.

I'd accept -2 as well.

You avoided what I asked.

Link vs Jiggs, what does she do that puts it to a +3 to +4 without a LGL?

 

[Ghostbone]

Grim you overrate a lot of Jigg's match-ups

That said having no LGL is definitely enough to bring her match-up against Fox to her advantage, and Wolf and Falco are at least even, if not better.

Fyi Sheik has chain and needles to safely pressure from on-stage Grim, and her aerials aren't that bad either.

Pretty sure Link does pretty well against Jiggs LGL or no LGL though.... dem projectiles.

And since when does Falcon lose -3 to Jiggs? That match-up is like even lol, maybe +1 Jiggs without a LGL.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Falcon has no priority at all, lol. Jigglypuff can out-camp him with all of her aerials soooooo easily.

Sheik, okay, I messed up

Jigglypuff solidly beats Link because his attacks are too slow to beat out Puff's and have too many blind spots she can take advantage of. His boomerang and bombs are really easy for her to dodge due to her aerial mobility, which takes out half of his game. SH zair loses to Puff's SH bair/fair and as soon as Link is off-stage, he dies due to his poor recovery and Puff's gimping ability. Link's falling speed, weight and lack of good range + fast aerial options makes him combo food and there really isn't much he can do if Puff runs away and air camps.

Happy?

 

[Fuujin]

Grim I commend you on your trolling.

 

[Kuro~]

I can see where you're going grim but i do have one thing to say...

LACK OF RANGE?!?!? ARE U ****ING CRAZY!

 

[OverLade]

Falcon has no priority at all, lol. Jigglypuff can out-camp him with all of her aerials soooooo easily.

Falcons Uair ***** Jigglypuffs entire moveset. It doesn't even have to outspace, it does more damage if it trades, but most importantly, it KILLS.

That plus how much longer falcon lives than puff and how hard he is to gimp once he's at high percent and DI's well def makes it falcons favor.

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi's MUs imo:

Yoshi
-3:
-2:
-1:
+0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

you have to explain to me:
-3 on Falco
-2 on Fox
-1 your reasoning for most
+1 for ICs (I don't really believe it's possible to judge IC MUs lol)
+2 on Lucas and Link
+3 on Bowser (I think +3 is a bit too much :/ )

everytime I watch over Yoshi MU's I somehow like them because Yoshi is really solid somehow.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

+2:

Not even going to comment on these

you have to explain to me:
+2 on Lucas

everytime I watch over Yoshi MU's I somehow like them because Yoshi is really solid somehow.

Lucas gets outcamped, CG'd off of a pivot grab > u-smash, and has a lot of trouble approaching Yoshi. Yoshi does what Lucas wants to do much better and gets a lot more reward from it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Falcons Uair ***** Jigglypuffs entire moveset. It doesn't even have to outspace, it does more damage if it trades, but most importantly, it KILLS.

What is Jigglypuff doing above Falcon? o_O

And if she does get above Falcon, she has the second best aerial mobility in the game, very easy to air dodge back down.

Have you actually played the match-up before? I play against probably the best Falcon in my country all the time (Ghostbone), I'll admit to not knowing a few of these match-ups, but I do know Falcon.

That plus how much longer falcon lives than puff and how hard he is to gimp once he's at high percent and DI's well def makes it falcons favor.

...He isn't hard to gimp, lol. Unless the Jigglypuff over-extends in her attempt, she can basically block all of his attempts by jumping/falling off the stage at the last second and nairing (fair if he recovers high).

 

[Laem]

You deff don't have to be above falcon to get hit by his uair.
Not to mention the situation where jiggs is above falcon is, in fact, common, the same is true for the opposite. Good horizontal mobility but bad vertical mobility, thus some juggle games, including falcons, are a pain for her. Airdodging is particularly bad with slow vertical mobility.
Unless falcon can't mix up the timing for his upb (this goes for every char really), its relatively hard for jiggs to gimp him, and the risk is getting upb'd and then potentially getting stagespiked.

 

[OverLade]

What is Jigglypuff doing above Falcon? o_O

And if she does get above Falcon, she has the second best aerial mobility in the game, very easy to air dodge back down.

Have you actually played the match-up before? I play against probably the best Falcon in my country all the time (Ghostbone), I'll admit to not knowing a few of these match-ups, but I do know Falcon.



...He isn't hard to gimp, lol. Unless the Jigglypuff over-extends in her attempt, she can basically block all of his attempts by jumping/falling off the stage at the last second and nairing (fair if he recovers high).

Never heard of Ghostbone. And see below.

You deff don't have to be above falcon to get hit by his uair.
Not to mention the situation where jiggs is above falcon is, in fact, common, the same is true for the opposite. Good horizontal mobility but bad vertical mobility, thus some juggle games, including falcons, are a pain for her. Airdodging is particularly bad with slow vertical mobility.
Unless falcon can't mix up the timing for his upb (this goes for every char really), its relatively hard for jiggs to gimp him, and the risk is getting upb'd and then potentially getting stagespiked.

Exactly.

Jiggs falls slowly, and Falcons Uair hits horizontally. It's definitely not hard or uncommon for Jiggs to get hit by this move...

And yeah at the rest as well. Good falcons shouldn't be getting gimped by Puff...

 

[Alphicans]

"Good falcon's shouldn't be getting gimped."

I lol'd.

Regardless of what character it is, falcon has a pretty bad recovery considering it has no hitbox on it for a really long part of it (I guess grab box? lol). Honestly, I think it's silly to say jiggs can't gimp falcon easily when she has a great off stage game.

 

[Kuro~]

Wanna know how to solve this...

get mink and Mic in here! trololol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You deff don't have to be above falcon to get hit by his uair.
Not to mention the situation where jiggs is above falcon is, in fact, common, the same is true for the opposite. Good horizontal mobility but bad vertical mobility, thus some juggle games, including falcons, are a pain for her. Airdodging is particularly bad with slow vertical mobility.
Unless falcon can't mix up the timing for his upb (this goes for every char really), its relatively hard for jiggs to gimp him, and the risk is getting upb'd and then potentially getting stagespiked.

Have you ever played the match-up? I'm not basing my opinions on theory-craft here.

"Good falcon's shouldn't be getting gimped."

I lol'd.

Regardless of what character it is, falcon has a pretty bad recovery considering it has no hitbox on it for a really long part of it (I guess grab box? lol). Honestly, I think it's silly to say jiggs can't gimp falcon easily when she has a great off stage game.

^This^

You guys are herping up the wrong derp.

Wanna know how to solve this...

get mink and Mic in here! trololol

With all due respect to Mink, his Jigglypuff playstyle, imo, isn't optimal. I feel the same way about DaPuffster and Wango too. They sacrifice space due to not throwing enough SH bairs/fairs/dairs out, and getting boxed in is a pretty bad position for any character, Puff included.

I personally play her much more similarly to Melee Puff, and I see a lot of success.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Looks pretty good.

 

[Z'zgashi]

you have to explain to me:
-3 on Falco
-2 on Fox
-1 your reasoning for most
+1 for ICs (I don't really believe it's possible to judge IC MUs lol)
+2 on Lucas and Link
+3 on Bowser (I think +3 is a bit too much :/ )

everytime I watch over Yoshi MU's I somehow like them because Yoshi is really solid somehow.

K, here I go:

-3 on Falco

His lasers stop all of our approach options and keep him safe against almost everything we can do. We dont have a shield to use as an approach, so really, we cant do much when Falco just sits back and camps. We cant throw eggs back as lasers beat them out and come out much faster, and while we could camp from the ledge, the LGL limits us from this, not to mention Falco can literally just walk to the other side of the stage where the eggs cant reach, then when we get up to close in, commence with the laser spam. If we manage to get up close at low damage, his jab beats out our entire close game and has a CG to tack on massive damage. He also has frame advantage with lasers and tons of kill power to punish any mistakes we make.

-2 on Fox

We have nothing on him set up wise (no guaranteed anything) and he's basically like a faster Falco with less annoying lasers and even more kill power. Fox can play super safe on us and can run away all day shooting lasers and poking at our horrendous defensive options with tilts and bairs until he can get one of his high kill power moves off on us to end our stock. All we can do against a good Fox is try to camp back and approach, and hope that Fox doesnt make a good read and usmash.

-1 your reasoning for most

Snake - Never dies, has better spacing, and has a slightly more dangerous camping game. Close to even, but in his favor due to the fact that he just straight up is more dangerous, punishes harder, and has a better time surviving and killing.
Diddy - His naners give him free set ups for kills and make setting up a ground game difficult. They can also interrupt our CG making it less effective, and Diddy has a nice poking game with his titls and aerials when you add in the naners. Also close to even, but slight Diddy adv imo.
Pikachu - I dont think I need to explain this one really. Yoshi and Pika are generally similar in a lot of ways, but Pika just does everything slightly better. His CG does a lot of free damage if he catches us off guard, pika's jolts are harder to deal with than eggs (while we can jab them and such, they also are more spammable and harder to punish), he has more kill power, his down b frame traps punish hard, and he is generally a safer character.
Dedede - The CG. We have to play super gay and watch ourselves when we're up close as the CG can turn a lead we worked hard on around in just a few seconds, not to mention Dedede can score kills with dthrow follow ups.
Peach - Generally pretty even, but Peach's float when used right puts her in positions that force us to lose ground or shield and she can control the spacing a little better than we can. Her lag less aerials also tend to be a problem especially as they have decent range and we cant powershield and punish.
ROB - ROB is also generally even, he just has better spacing tools with fair and ftilt, he has a better camping game, and the gyro when used right has really nice stage control.
Pit - Pit just has a better camping game, has great pokes and prods, has a reflector that has almost no endlag and works on not only projectiles, but reverses smashes, tilts, etc giving him mindgame opportunities, and has a nice set of aerials that contends. His wings can also mess with our spacing and he has decent kill moves. Imo, this is the most solid -1 we have, and by that I mean it doesnt lean towards -2 or 0 at all, and is generally very obviously a -1.
Ike - He outranges us and we dont really have a shield to play with up close. Ike also is very safe when it comes to kills as bair for the same reason. Basically, this MU is just us running from his superior range while we just try and pelt him with eggs, which if he sees coming, he can punish. He also has a great up close game with that jab, which gives us problems.

+1 for ICs (I don't really believe it's possible to judge IC MUs lol)

We're better than most at separating the two and keeping safe, and we also have an easy time soloing Nana and chasing her off with moves like Egg lay, bair, and nair. We also have free kills on solopo with GR > usmash, so we can camp solopo, and pivot grab his attempts at approaches, and as ICies are so slow, they cant really contend with our grab aside from Blizzard and Ice Shot, which are both easy for Yoshi to avoid and counter. Our eggs just force approach, we can single out and punish Nana easily, and we have kill setups and timeout ability on them.

+2 on Lucas and Link

Lucas - Lucas has problems approaching us, and we force approaches with our camping. Lucas is also one of the easier to grab characters in the game, and has a very easy GR CG which leads into usmash for simple easy damage. Our aerial game is also superior in almost every aspect which allows us to weave around him and hit him with our own stuff, as well as we can also play safe against him giving us a solid advantage.
Link - Link's camping isnt as effective on us as our nair eats his boomerang and our best in game air speed allows us to close the gap quickly from his blind spots and we can also stop practically his only option for that type of approach. We also have a CG that puts him in a terrible and easy to gimp position offstage (he has to use DJ to make it back if we quicksnap the ledge) and we are generally a good character at keeping him away, as a falling nair beats out his up b and is a semi spike, and his onlt cover for that is uair, which he cant recover after using.

+3 on Bowser (I think +3 is a bit too much :/ )

Bowser imo is Yoshi's easiest MU, as we play it almost exactly like we do Ganon, only Bowser's moves dont kill as easily as Ganon. We can shut down everything Bowser does with 3-4 moves, Egg Toss, Pivot Grab, Usmash, and maybe Egg Lay. Our camping forces Bowser to approach, and our options completely shut down all of his approaches. He cant sit back and shield as our eggs have two hitboxes which will slowly eat away at his shield, and his huge size makes him an easy target. We can also CG him to build up even more damage if we get the grab (which you will multiple times if youre playing right) and we have tons of shenanigans which can **** Bowser if they work (Last frame of Egg Lay on the ledge will release Bowser under the stage where he cant recover, killing him instantly, dair through his fortress > footstool and he cant recover, etc). While these arent reliable, they add to the fact that we can shut him down harder than any other character.

 

[Delta-cod]

Bowser gets raaaaaaaaaaaaped by Yoshi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaDEsyaN2YA

No options.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I just spammed Egglay against Zigsta and won, Of course he did go R.O.B. game 2.
But yeah, Bowser gets ***** by Yoshi pretty hard...

Yoshi's MUs imo:

Yoshi
-3:
-2:
-1:
+0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

Even with explanations I still don't approve of this... Especially Zelda being Even.

Yoshi
-3:
-2:
-1:
+0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What Yoshi players do have experience against Link, Zelda and Samus? I think they're all pretty even match-ups.

 

[Ghostbone]

Have you actually played the match-up before? I play against probably the best Falcon in my country all the time (Ghostbone), I'll admit to not knowing a few of these match-ups, but I do know Falcon.

Don't hype me up when you really have no idea of that >.>
Though it could be possible, it's not really that hard to be the best at a low tier in Australia >.>

Never heard of Ghostbone. And see below.

Australian players aren't well known lol.

 

[Yikarur]

well judging from the second match, it doesn't look very legit as a MU-Prove because he was clearly the worse player overall. I really think +2 is enough if you play a good Bowser who knows what he is doing :/
I'll play the MU more in the future to get a better judgement ;0!

Z you sound like a lot of theory, I've never experienced the Falco MU like that extreme D:

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Shush, Ghost. Pretending you are amazing helps my case.

 

[Attila_]

Have you actually played the match-up before? I play against probably the best Falcon in my country all the time (Ghostbone), I'll admit to not knowing a few of these match-ups, but I do know Falcon.

loooool

i'm assuming you posted this here cause you figured no aussies would see it, but i was bored at work and happened to stumble across it.

ghost isn't even competitive in your region, let alone australia.

he has never beaten a reputible player with him.

i've beaten zxv's peach in a tourney set with falcon. hell, i convinced him the mu was even. ghost's falcon? don't you even...

don't go pretending that you know all, especially when you need to make things up to try and make a point.

and don't try 'you've never played ghost's falcon, so how would you know?', cause when a player doesn't threaten SA with a character, they sure as hell don't threaten the rest of the country.

sorry american folks, he doesn't speak for the rest of the country.

 

[SwordAUT]

What Yoshi players do have experience against Link, Zelda and Samus? I think they're all pretty even match-ups.

I'd say it's +1 for Samus... :3

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Shush, Ghost. Pretending you are amazing helps my case.

A little late there, Attila.

 

[Zigsta]

Yeah, Bowser-Yoshi MU is garbs.

 

[Judo777]

I might be wrong just because I know the MU so well but I feel like Sheik Yoshi is not even. Yoshi has one very big issue as a character and that is landing on the ground without taking huge amounts of punishment and Sheik exploits that harder than most characters.

Also with her low dash being able to punish egg tosses and her Yoshi not having a great answer to needles I don't think the MU is even.