Ntsc vs pal

[Archangel]

NTSC is Stupid! Fox is overpowered and sheik is mindless Dthrow auto-****. I mean seriously it takes no skill whatsoever. At least in PAL Mid/low/bottom tiers can advance in tournament without getting easily forced out by stupid ken combo bs or gay dthrow Fair nonsense from sheik. America is a country of mostly lazy people anyway. They want everything done for them, they don't wanna play PAL they would have to work harder to win? Thats just laziness and cowardly!









Why is this still open.

 

[EPsilon933]

Why is this still open.

Aren't people who make threads the only ones who can request their threads to be closed?

 

[X1-12]

Why is this still open.

why are you still posting?

 

[Archangel]

why are you still posting?

Because this is still open....silly.

 

[jugfingers]

so I found this in smash wiki I am assuming it is not an imperforated list of changes but seems to be the major ones anyways.

* Bowser, Kirby, and Yoshi are each heavier.
* Marth, Fox, and Mario are each lighter. This puts Marth below the weight threshold of standing up during Fox's shine.
* Falco's down aerial only spikes for the first half of the animation. The rest sends the opponent slightly up.
* Sheik's up aerial isn't as strong. In addition, it has one less frame of hitbox lag.
* Marth's down aerial is a Meteor smash and in Home Run Contest it sends the sandbag straight down with the bat drops.
* Fox's down and forward smashes are less powerful.
* Fox's up smash weakened, damage dropped from 18% in NTSC to 17% in PAL, knockback dramatically weakened, for example, in PAL-version Peach would die to Fox's Usmash at as high of a % as 83%, whereas in the NTSC version Peach only needs to be at 70% for her to Blast away as a screaming star.
* Yoshi's forward smash is more powerful.
* Peach's dash attack is less powerful.
* Luigi's neutral aerial is less powerful.
* Ganondorf's down aerial inflicts less damage, from 22% in NTSC to 21% in PAL.
* Ganondorf's forward aerial has dramatically decreased in terms of knockback, in PAL his back aerial is more powerful.
* Yoshi's down aerial inflicts less damage, from 44% in NTSC to 36% in PAL.
* Fox's forward aerial has more range on its hitbox.
* DI on Sheik's down throw has been changed so that it can no longer chain throw consistently.
* Fox can tech out of Falco's down throw in PAL.
* Link's spin attack is no longer a semi-spike.
* Bowser's down throw can hit Mr. Game & Watch.
* Link's super jump glitch was removed.
* Samus's extended grapple beam was removed.
* The Ice Climbers glitch was removed.
* Lag and loading times have been reduced.
* The 'Special Movie' was removed.
* In Home-Run Contest mode, the platform is longer and the invisible backwall is a bit farther.


alot of these seem almost random. nerfing yoshis dair? making mario lighter?


it seems like the by far the greatest nerf was done to sheik with the Di on her down throw.
which it has been argued gives low tier a greater chance in tournaments, because as kirbykaze would say, sheik keeps low tiers on a leash.

but I think people are forgetting that marth, falco and peach severely restrain low tiers as well and other than their spikes marth and falco are seem pretty much the same, two characters which I think are played alot more than sheik, and in europe it seems fairly evident that low tiers are not tournament viable.

however japan does have some very good yoshi players.

but I think the main focus here is on sheik, I think that if america were to switch over to pal that sheik would be lucky to break top five in major tournaments. and I wouldn't be surprised if falco's started doing a lot better.

 

[Zoler]

Ganon bair stronger in PAL? That I did not know

 

[Tamoo]

IIRC, mario was actually very high in the tier list closer to the start of ssbm's lifespan, so at that point, it might have made sense to nerf mario somewhat

 

[Magus420]

Pretty certain it means b-air becomes stronger than f-air much sooner, not PAL b-air is stronger than NTSC b-air. B-air becomes stronger than f-air at like 130%+ in NTSC. F-air probably only has more knockback at low percents where it wouldn't be killing.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Peach's dash attack is weaker in PAL?

Holy crap, I think we need to make this game the standard

 

[GOD!]

Lol guys you realize no one except the very vocal minority actually want to change to PAL. The change is never going to happen because NTSC is standard in America.

people mock oakleaf but he was really dead on. It's not practical, and NTSC isn't even that bad. It won't even make a difference if we switch. People might switch mains and some characters might be better, but the same players will still win. And it is all too hypothetical and impossible for the change to be realistic.

 

[Zoler]

Tho if people didn't switch mains there could be other winners. Also do you REALLY want sheiks downthrow in your game, be honest?

 

[Aussierob123]

This thread is less about people switching to PAL and more about people understanding that pal isn't all "peach jiggs + low tiers raaaaape cuz high tiers are super nerfed l0lz", which seems to be the general perception of PAL melee. I would prefer to play NTSC melee too, and we've even discussed making the switch but it's totally impractical to do it in a PAL region (just as it would be to switch to PAL in an NTSC region).

Spam arrows I don't understand what's wrong with you. This thread is fine, stop spamming it with trying to get it shut. If a simple discussion of PAL vs NTSC can't be had, then there's something wrong with the members of the smashboards.

 

[Archangel]

This thread is less about people switching to PAL and more about people understanding that pal isn't all "peach jiggs + low tiers raaaaape cuz high tiers are super nerfed l0lz", which seems to be the general perception of PAL melee. I would prefer to play NTSC melee too, and we've even discussed making the switch but it's totally impractical to do it in a PAL region (just as it would be to switch to PAL in an NTSC region).

Spam arrows I don't understand what's wrong with you. This thread is fine, stop spamming it with trying to get it shut. If a simple discussion of PAL vs NTSC can't be had, then there's something wrong with the members of the smashboards.

Maybe your right. I'll see how things progress in my absence. I'd lol if it got closed after I stopped ****ing around.

 

[EPsilon933]

Peach's dash attack is weaker in PAL?

Holy crap, I think we need to make this game the standard

According to this thread, that wasn't changed in PAL. I've tested it before, and I couldn't notice anything new in PAL.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=57155

 

[jugfingers]

I kinda really want to see mango tour Europe with jigglypuff now.



but so ok lets forget that they nerfed ganon and link for a moment.

so the supposed top four characters have been nerfed

do lower character really want that?

I mean do we really want some Harrison Bergeron in this *****.


it seems like beating the top tier in PAL is much less of an accomplishment than in NTSC which in my mind is a legit argument, since the lower cast was in no way improved ...cept yoshis fwd smash, but I mean there still technically the same ****ty character, but everyone is just less powerful. I really don't think this is the right approach for balancing a game. Just think of what Goku would say.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I'm not surprised that they don't use PAL in America. They don't use the Metric system either.

BUT USING FEET AND INCHES MAKES MUCH MORE SENSE THEN USING METRES AND CENTIMETRES
SURE INCHES AND FEET ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED SO USING THEM TOGETHER IS ****ING ******** BUT ITS WHAT IM USED SO ITS BETTER
o

 

[EPsilon933]

it seems like beating the top tier in PAL is much less of an accomplishment than in NTSC which in my mind is a legit argument, since the lower cast was in no way improved ...cept yoshis fwd smash, but I mean there still technically the same ****ty character, but everyone is just less powerful. I really don't think this is the right approach for balancing a game. Just think of what Goku would say.

I'd rather have a game with attempted balance (with limited results, so long as the good changes outweighs the bad) than a game that wasn't attempted to be better balanced at all. Sheik's dthrow nerf was absolutely necessary though.

 

[Charlesz]

BUT USING FEET AND INCHES MAKES MUCH MORE SENSE THEN USING METRES AND CENTIMETRES
SURE INCHES AND FEET ARE COMPLETELY UNRELATED SO USING THEM TOGETHER IS ****ING ******** BUT ITS WHAT IM USED SO ITS BETTER
o

lol win is win.

 

[FoxLisk]

dude sheik's dthrow is not that big a deal. sure it invalidates half the cast, but so do fox's speed, falcos lasers, marth's sword, CF's combos, peach's moveset, etc. all taking it out does is change her matchups against the other high tiers, which arent that great looking as is. why is that an improvement?

 

[EPsilon933]

dude sheik's dthrow is not that big a deal. sure it invalidates half the cast, but so do fox's speed, falcos lasers, marth's sword, CF's combos, peach's moveset, etc. all taking it out does is change her matchups against the other high tiers, which arent that great looking as is. why is that an improvement?

Yeah, but her dthrow is so boring. Haven't you heard everyone boo at Tope at Genesis when he started chain throwing AXE? With Sheik's down throw, it always leads into the same guaranteed comboes (on most characters), dthrow ftilt fair, or just dthrow fair. With Fox's speed, Falco's, Lasers, and Marth's sword, it's fun because it doesn't always lead into the same repetitive stuff.

Doesn't Sheik go even with Fox (very slight disadvantage), Falco, Peach (although she'll now get soft countered), and counters Captain Falcon and Marth? Her only threat is Jigglypuff and Sheik can't easily get a grab on her anyways, so the dthrow nerf isn't going to effect her heavily.

Melee is about winning, not fun, what am I thinking?

 

[Zoler]

Yeah, but her dthrow is so boring. Haven't you heard everyone boo at Tope at Genesis when he started chain throwing AXE? With Sheik's down throw, it always leads into the same guaranteed comboes (on most characters), dthrow ftilt fair, or just dthrow fair. With Fox's speed, Falco's, Lasers, and Marth's sword, it's fun because it doesn't always lead into the same repetitive stuff.

Doesn't Sheik go even with Fox (very slight disadvantage), Falco, Peach (although she'll now get soft countered), and counters Captain Falcon and Marth? Her only threat is Jigglypuff and Sheik can't easily get a grab on her anyways, so the dthrow nerf isn't going to effect her heavily.

Melee is about winning, not fun, what am I thinking?

Something like this I think:

Fox > Sheik in NTSC
Fox > Sheik in PAL

Marth << Sheik in NTSC
Marth < or = Sheik in PAL

Falco = Sheik in NTSC
Falco = Sheik in PAL

Falcon << Sheik in NTSC
Falcon << Sheik in PAL

Peach < Sheik in NTSC
Peach > Sheik in PAL

Puff >> Sheik in NTSC
Puff >> Sheik in PAL

IC >> Sheik in NTSC
IC >> Sheik in PAL

Low tiers <<<<< Sheik in NTSC
Low tiers < or << Sheik in PAL

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah, but her dthrow is so boring. Haven't you heard everyone boo at Tope at Genesis when he started chain throwing AXE? With Sheik's down throw, it always leads into the same guaranteed comboes (on most characters), dthrow ftilt fair, or just dthrow fair. With Fox's speed, Falco's, Lasers, and Marth's sword, it's fun because it doesn't always lead into the same repetitive stuff.

U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw Nair by Armada vs Mango was so exciting. It was so creative and original too. I've never seen a chain grab like that!

 

[EPsilon933]

U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw Nair by Armada vs Mango was so exciting. It was so creative and original too. I've never seen a chain grab like that!

Too bad that wasn't changed in PAL too...

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Chain_throw

 

[KirbyKaze]

She needs that CG to be competitive on some levels. Why do we want Peach to suck? She's already not-top-tier, isn't that enough?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw U-throw Nair by Armada vs Mango was so exciting. It was so creative and original too. I've never seen a chain grab like that!

nobody blames american sheiks for abusing the dthrow, we're just saying that its stupid that it works like it works.
and also peach needs that to compete with spacies, you cant really say sheik needs the ntsc downthrow to compete in any matchup. pal sheik is still very much top tier.

 

[EPsilon933]

She needs that CG to be competitive on some levels. Why do we want Peach to suck? She's already not-top-tier, isn't that enough?

Maybe you're right. Fox, Falcon, and Captain Falcon are already good. They deserve to be chain throwable. Low tiers don't. Also, uthrow chain throws at least look kind of cool. Marth's chain throw on Fox is just elegant on Final Destination.

 

[KirbyKaze]

nobody blames american sheiks for abusing the dthrow, we're just saying that its stupid that it works like it works.
and also peach needs that to compete with spacies, you cant really say sheik needs the ntsc downthrow to compete in any matchup. pal sheik is still very much top tier.

I'm addressing the boring comment. I understand she's still good without it.

Also, uthrow chain throws at least look kind of cool. Marth's chain throw on Fox is just elegant on Final Destination.

This is so subjective I don't even know where to begin with it. After seeing M2K CG 0-50 the same way for like 3 years and then switch to a big Fair/Uair combo depending on his mood/their DI, it seems so meh.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

idgaf about which game is better.

this is america. my president is black and my melee is 1.0

 

[Zoler]

idgaf about which game is better.

this is america. my president is black and my melee is 1.0

That is a pretty stupid point of view.

 

[Kanelol]

NTSC > PAL

know why?

 

[EPsilon933]

NTSC > PAL

know why?

Because we're GAY!

 

[FoxLisk]

i'd say falco and fox have a slight advantage on sheik in NTSC. she's even with herself, beats Marth, and loses to jiggs. without her gay downthrow, she'll lose even harder to fox and falco and go about even with marth and get even MORE destroyed by jiggs. i dont think fox's usmash killing 10% or even 20% later makes up for her not having throw combos on him anymore, although if the tech chase still works it doesn't matter as much. basically she drops significantly in terms of relevant matchups, and still wins against all the low tiers because her moveset is ****ing broken compared to theirs.

and is it really going to be much more awesome to watch sheiks camp bair and ftilt against low tiers instead of just CGing them and getting it over with? no, it's not.


also. On what basis does the entire smash community still accept that sheik has such a huge advantage over marth? i know this isnt the thread for it, but I think that it's a relatively small advantage that slips to somewhere around even. there was never a point in the melee metagame where sheiks were beating the top marths, and the world's best player was a marth main for around 5 years straight. Yes, there were a couple tournaments where KDJ stomped M2K, but, as he will be quick to point out, he even had a winning record against KDJ. I see really no reason to accept that this is a broken matchup. I think it's Sheik > Marth in NTSC, and without her dthrow bull**** it'd be Sheik = or possibly even slightly < Marth.

So basically, taking away sheik's dthrow bull**** makes her game more boring and campy and cuts her matchups against the top 5 or 6 characters down tremendously. What you're doing is taking her from a theoretically top tier character who has rarely gotten much tournament attention compared to how highly everyone thinks of her to a high-tier character who's just as boring but in a different way. It is NOT AN IMPROVEMENT.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

foxlisk, what youre saying in your post doesnt reflect whats happening with matchups and tier lists in europe so you lose. gg.

 

[FoxLisk]

mike, everything you've ever said has been biased and ********. and nothing anyone else has said has actually been reflected either, so why can't I theorycraft as well?

 

[EPsilon933]

i'd say falco and fox have a slight advantage on sheik in NTSC. she's even with herself, beats Marth, and loses to jiggs. without her gay downthrow, she'll lose even harder to fox and falco and go about even with marth and get even MORE destroyed by jiggs. i dont think fox's usmash killing 10% or even 20% later makes up for her not having throw combos on him anymore, although if the tech chase still works it doesn't matter as much. basically she drops significantly in terms of relevant matchups, and still wins against all the low tiers because her moveset is ****ing broken compared to theirs.

Fox and Falco are in the air for so short of a time, they go almost the same distance away from her in PAL and NTSC. Her tech chase on Fox and Falco is almost the same and still as effective. Yeah, it will be more even with Marth, but she still wins. What really allows her to kill Marth is her ability to punish, which is her movement and fast attacks. Her dthrow only gets stuff like dthrow ftilt fair, which isn't as much as people claim it to be (inb4 there's more Sheik can do with NTSC dthrow on Marth, but that's situational stuff). She doesn't get much more destroyed because getting a grab on Jigglypuff isn't so easy and doing anything from her NTSC grab isn't so useful. It's worse, but it's not badly worse. She has the same dthrow tech chases against Fox, your Fox nerfed usmash point is invalid. The only real significant drop in matchups is her now being soft countered by Peach instead of going even with her. She still wins against low tiers but it's not as much of an advantage and it's less boring.

and is it really going to be much more awesome to watch sheiks camp bair and ftilt against low tiers instead of just CGing them and getting it over with? no, it's not.

Yeah, instead of grab dthrow grab, it's a lot more stuff and a lot more variety.

also. On what basis does the entire smash community still accept that sheik has such a huge advantage over marth? i know this isnt the thread for it, but I think that it's a relatively small advantage that slips to somewhere around even. there was never a point in the melee metagame where sheiks were beating the top marths, and the world's best player was a marth main for around 5 years straight. Yes, there were a couple tournaments where KDJ stomped M2K, but, as he will be quick to point out, he even had a winning record against KDJ. I see really no reason to accept that this is a broken matchup. I think it's Sheik > Marth in NTSC, and without her dthrow bull**** it'd be Sheik = or possibly even slightly < Marth.

KDJ is the only player to have a positive record against SephirothKen. Also, there aren't many top level Sheiks out there. Sheik is just an unpopular character. Sheik still has at least a slight advantage vs Marth in PAL. She doesn't rely on her dthrow. It's her overall ability to punish Marth that kills Marth.

So basically, taking away sheik's dthrow bull**** makes her game more boring and campy and cuts her matchups against the top 5 or 6 characters down tremendously. What you're doing is taking her from a theoretically top tier character who has rarely gotten much tournament attention compared to how highly everyone thinks of her to a high-tier character who's just as boring but in a different way. It is NOT AN IMPROVEMENT.

Not, it eliminates the boringness of Sheik by removing a boring move; her dthrow chain throw. She's not at all tremendously weakened among the top 5 or 6 characters. She's really only noticeably affected by her Peach matchup. She does not drop into high tier at all, she still has a lot of good matchups. Sheik is more than just her dthrow. She has a lot of entertaining moves that you seem to not recognize.

 

[pockyD]

you don't think dthrow is a huge deal vs marth?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

mike, everything you've ever said has been biased and ********. and nothing anyone else has said has actually been reflected either, so why can't I theorycraft as well?

no thats not true, and even if it was what kind of excuse is that? "youre ********, so i can be ******** to! ;(", no sorry, that doesnt make sense.
theorizing about something that is out in the open is ****ing stupid. how about i make a theory about how gravity makes us fall up which sounds logical on paper, thats kind of what your post was

i cant beleive you think sheik isnt top tier in pal rofl. and for your low tier matchup comment, well just ask a low tier player and see which version they prefer to play against sheik.

 

[EPsilon933]

for your low tier matchup comment, well just ask a low tier player and see which version they prefer to play against sheik.

PAL > 1.0 For Zelda. I play Zelda in 1.0, 1.2, and PAL. I know the which version Sheik ***** Zelda less in.

you don't think dthrow is a huge deal vs marth?

ok, maybe it's not as bad comparatively to other top/high characters.

 

[FoxLisk]

i have a question. what are you guys even arguing?

At this point it sounds like the argument is "PAL is more fun for people who play bad characters," which is a really crappy argument for why it should be accepted. Get back to me when you're saying something about balance again.

EPsilon:

1) you dont seem to understand sheik v marth

2) you play ntsc and aren't even good at that. get someone who plays PAL at a high level to back up your statements and I'll pay more attention.

3) KDJ is the only player with a positive record against ken because he was a vastly superior player at that point and Ken quit before PC, M2K, etc, had time to meet him in enough tournaments to demonstrate how far they had grown past him. If Ken had played for even another year, M2K and PC Chris and possibly others would have developed positive records. That wasn't because of the matchup.

4) i really just don't give a **** if dthrow chaingrabs bore you. make a real point about gameplay. i like watching chaingrabs more than bair/needle/ftilt camping.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

but before you argued that lt matchups with sheik was just as gay in pal because of bair and ftilt spam/camp. dont back down on your arguments when you start getting schooled.
btw im just saying that PAL->NTSC, and i beleive that it is more balanced for high/top tiers aswell. i dont know what you mean when you say "it should be accepted". what? accepted by who?