Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[TheQuester]

Spoiler: This is my list of experiencie with the franchises

Own or Owned:
Mario (Mostly Mario Kart, through)
Zelda (BOTW and WWHD but i didn't care much for it)
Kirby (Only Kirby Super Star Ultra, through)
Pokemon (Long-time Fan)
Fire Emblem (I liked Awakening and Fates)
Kid Icarus (I liked uprising, but i played it like 10+ years ago lol)
Sonic (I played a bunch of sonic games)
Animal Crossing (I like Let's go to the city)
Xenoblade (Only Xenoblade 1)
Pac-Man (Duh xD)
Final Fantasy (I have played XII)
Splatoon (Owned 1 in the WiiU)
Dragon Quest (Long-time fan)
Tekken (I owned Tekken 5 as a kid)
Kingdom Hearts (Used to be a fan)

Played but not owned:
ARMS (I played the global testpunch for some hours and that's it)
Punch-Out!! (I played the NES one a bunch of times, but i never owned it)
Minecraft (Played a bunch of times with a friend, but didnt care much for it tbh)

No experiencie (?) means i've never heard of the series before i meet them in Smash:
Donkey Kong
Metroid (?)
StarFox (?)
Yoshi
F-Zero (?)
EarthBound (?)
Ice Climbers (?)
Game & Watch
WarioWare
Metal Gear
WiiFit
Megaman
Street Fighter
Bayonetta (?)
Castlevania
Persona
Banjo-Kazooie
Fatal Fury

Yeah, im not a hardcore gamer haha, i have niche tastes.

 

[Will]

The only franchise represented in Smash that I’ve never played is Splatoon. I just can’t get into it.

Sorry.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Just you wait

Any day now we’re getting that new Ice Climbers game

you kid but an It Takes Two styled platformer with Popo and Nana would go hard

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I remember not being personally hyped for Terry myself, more happy for an old high school friend of mine getting one of his most wanted since Brawl.

I wasn't against Terry by any means, and I remember meming the hell out of his dialogue on Discord prior to his official reveal when it was obvious he was coming, but after Ryu and Ken didn't click with me for their mechanics, I felt Terry wouldn't be that fun for me either.

I was wrong. So very wrong.
Terry became my favorite of the Fighter Pass and it helped that he DIDN'T have some of the same things the shotos had that I didn't like (the light and mediums as well as the committed jumps) and was actually fun to play as. And in general is one of my favorite DLCs and favorite Ultimate newcomers overall.

 

[TheQuester]

I remember not being personally hyped for Terry myself, more happy for an old high school friend of mine getting one of his most wanted since Brawl.

I wasn't against Terry by any means, and I remember meming the hell out of his dialogue on Discord prior to his official reveal when it was obvious he was coming, but after Ryu and Ken didn't click with me for their mechanics, I felt Terry wouldn't be that fun for me either.

I was wrong. So very wrong.
Terry became my favorite of the Fighter Pass and it helped that he DIDN'T have some of the same things the shotos had that I didn't like (the light and mediums as well as the committed jumps) and was actually fun to play as. And in general is one of my favorite DLCs and favorite Ultimate newcomers overall.

Terry is cool.
I knew him because someone kept requesting him in Playstation All-Stars back in 2012, lol.
If it wasn't for that guy i probably would never have heard of him or SNK until the Terry leak somehow.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I want more characters from things I don’t care about or don’t know about. They’re almost always my favorites.

 

[SharkLord]

I remember not being personally hyped for Terry myself, more happy for an old high school friend of mine getting one of his most wanted since Brawl.

I wasn't against Terry by any means, and I remember meming the hell out of his dialogue on Discord prior to his official reveal when it was obvious he was coming, but after Ryu and Ken didn't click with me for their mechanics, I felt Terry wouldn't be that fun for me either.

I was wrong. So very wrong.
Terry became my favorite of the Fighter Pass and it helped that he DIDN'T have some of the same things the shotos had that I didn't like (the light and mediums as well as the committed jumps) and was actually fun to play as. And in general is one of my favorite DLCs and favorite Ultimate newcomers overall.

Terry's such a good example because paper, he's exactly the kind of guy who'd be overlooked. Another traditional fighting game brawler with motion inputs and some energy attacks, from a series that isn't quite a household name beyond latin america. But when you see him in execution, he's snappy, flashy, memorable, and controls fluidly. Plus, he brings a sick stage with a giant music list to sweeten the deal.

 

[Louie G.]

And again, characters from series that aren't currently "relevant" tend to get overlooked a lot, so DKC's dormancy means Diddy gets pushed for the side. Hell, I fell victim to that myself with my old roster, where I only focused on the Switch, prioritized newcomers, and yes, ended up dropping Diddy, so I admittedly have a personal insight to that sort of mindset

I suppose so, but I think people really overstate how much DKC has fallen off the grid. Tropical Freeze sold well on Switch, Diddy Kong has popped up in a few Mario spinoffs since then, and he's prepped to be a big part of an expensive amusement park attraction. And I know he was a headliner in the Tropical Freeze port, but I really can't think of many reasons for Funky Kong to outrank DK's second in command (I know it's an echo fighter, but still). I recall seeing him on your last roster, but generally I just want to map out why I can't really wrap my head around why people feel that way.

As far as his moveset goes, I do have to wonder if he was subsequently kind of crippled by not being paired with Dixie Kong. He reasonably has everything he SHOULD have - Peanut Popgun, he's got his rocket pack, he does his cartwheel. All those "referential" bases are covered. His moveset is a bit plain otherwise, and does hinge on more of a general "he's a monkey" essence than something exclusive to the character, but had he been a tag team duo character I think that would have carried a lot of additional creative weight. That's the odd thing about Diddy too, I don't really think there's anything wrong with the way he's designed, he's just not a character I typically have a lot of fun with. But people are still able to do some zany stuff with him that I get a kick out of.

 

[Sucumbio]

I’ve been playing less games lately too but there’s a lot that I’m still interested in when I have free time. I tend to buy more games than I have time to play so I’ve been holding off buying much until I beat what I already have.

Here’s my play experience with Smash franchises:

Spoiler

Own games in the series:

Mario
Yoshi
Zelda
Pokemon
Donkey Kong
Fire Emblem
Kirby
Xenoblade
Metroid
StarFox
F-Zero
Final Fantasy
Persona
Street Fighter
Mega Man
Banjo-Kazooie
Wii Fit
Duck Hunt
Bayonetta
Kingdom Hearts
Kid Icarus
Sonic the Hedgehog
Dragon Quest

Played but never owned:

Castlevania
Metal Gear
Wario Ware
Tekken

No experience:

Punch Out
Animal Crossing
Pikmin
Minecraft
King of Fighters
ARMS
Splatoon
Earthbound
Game & Watch
ROB
Ice Climbers

Wait, Punch Out!, really!? You never cease to surprise me but then again that's why I love this place cause there's so much variety even though we all celebrate Smash. It's a fun franchise IMHO and my favorite is the NES game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

A lot of Smash fans haven't gotten into Donkey Kong

Doesn't this feel weird when we've just had a Smash game that got a new DK character via fan demand? Sure things may have been different back in 2015, but it's not like Switch newcomers have no non-Smash way to be exposed to DK-aside from Tropical Freeze getting a port, the best-selling game on the Switch now has 3 playable Kongs, and the DKC Trilogy is available with an NSO subscription. Oh and with the Mario movie making a billion, that's another way for today's kiddies to know who the Kongs are too.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Diddy is a little weird in that, having grown up with a Nintendo 64, I have to say he was perhaps THE most animated/fun Rare character, but in Smash it's not like that.
If you compare him to K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie he really kinda pales. K. Rool and Banjo have their classic personalities but they're like ultra overpowered in terms of animations, expressiveness and that kind of stuff. They do weird poses and funny faces for every single move. DK, despite being a Smash 64 character, Is kinda like that too.
And they all have THAT move, like DK's Giant Punch or Banjo's Wonderwing.

Diddy by comparison comes off as kinda muted in terms of personality, and his moveset is a bit plain. The closest thing to a "meme" move he has is Banana Peel which isn't really particularly crazy.

I think he's really fun once you get the hang of him, though. He has long combos, he can pressure his opponents in a lot of ways, he can do a ton of mind games, he has probably the best meteor in the game in his down aerial, he's fast, and his monkey voices are funny.
He's also a little stressing to play as, though, imo. Diddy doesn't really have easy moves. He needs to be mentally on top of his opponent 100% of the time imo.

But yeah, in short.
I like Diddy.
I think K. Rool and Banjo kinda eclipse him, but I like Diddy.
Dixie would be awesome.

 

[SharkLord]

I suppose so, but I think people really overstate how much DKC has fallen off the grid. Tropical Freeze sold well on Switch, Diddy Kong has popped up in a few Mario spinoffs since then, and he's prepped to be a big part of an expensive amusement park attraction. And I know he was a headliner in the Tropical Freeze port, but I really can't think of many reasons for Funky Kong to outrank DK's second in command (I know it's an echo fighter, but still). I recall seeing him on your last roster, but generally I just want to map out why I can't really wrap my head around why people feel that way.

As far as his moveset goes, I do have to wonder if he was subsequently kind of crippled by not being paired with Dixie Kong. He reasonably has everything he SHOULD have - Peanut Popgun, he's got his rocket pack, he does his cartwheel. All those "referential" bases are covered. His moveset is a bit plain otherwise, and does hinge on more of a general "he's a monkey" essence than something exclusive to the character, but had he been a tag team duo character I think that would have carried a lot of additional creative weight. That's the odd thing about Diddy too, I don't really think there's anything wrong with the way he's designed, he's just not a character I typically have a lot of fun with. But people are still able to do some zany stuff with him that I get a kick out of.

Doesn't this feel weird when we've just had a Smash game that got a new DK character via fan demand? Sure things may have been different back in 2015, but it's not like Switch newcomers have no non-Smash way to be exposed to DK-aside from Tropical Freeze getting a port, the best-selling game on the Switch now has 3 playable Kongs, and the DKC Trilogy is available with an NSO subscription. Oh and with the Mario movie making a billion, that's another way for today's kiddies to know who the Kongs are too.

True, true, you both make fair points. I was spitballing a bit to try and explain wht Diddy gets passed up on. For what it's worth, I think there's still a bit of recency bias in play, since Tropical Freeze was the last super big DK game we got until the Mario vs Donkey Kong remake, and at the port alone is going on seven years now. The NSO ports are just one of many and I don't think they got a ton of advertising individually, and the Mario Kart pass had the Kongs as part of a bunch of Mario characters instead of the focus points.

That said, K. Rool's inclusion from the ballot votes and the amusement park are pretty valid points. Plus, Diddy got a little shoutout in the Mario movie, so it's not like NINTENDO HAS FORGOTTEN ABOUT DIDDY KONG or anything like that. Still, I don't think Diddy's been a major character since Tropical Freeze, and Donkey Kong in general hasn't had a super duper big presence on the Switch compared to the other big Nintendo franchises.

I dunno, it is still pretty puzzling when you stop and think about it. I'm just throwing out guesses here because I'm not really sure either

 

[Gorgonzales]

Diddy is a little weird in that, having grown up with a Nintendo 64, I have to say he was perhaps THE most animated/fun Rare character, but in Smash it's not like that.

[DK, K. Rool, and Banjo] all have THAT move, like DK's Giant Punch or Banjo's Wonderwing.

Diddy by comparison comes off as kinda muted in terms of personality, and his moveset is a bit plain. The closest thing to a "meme" move he has is Banana Peel which isn't really particularly crazy.

He's also a little stressing to play as, though, imo. Diddy doesn't really have easy moves. He needs to be mentally on top of his opponent 100% of the time imo.

I've seen people say that Diddy shouldn't be a mind-game focused character and should instead focus more on being a spontaneous, almost reckless kind of fighter. I agree with them, given that Diddy's whole thing is supposed to be him being inexperienced and cocky (which, funnily enough, is better expressed in Subspace cutscenes than in-game).

He's got glimpses of that, with Monkey Flip being a fantastic burst movement option and fitting of the character, but then you have Banana Peel which kinda goes against that by being this super-deep combo and mindgame enabling tool to the point where it feels like the whole character revolves around it.

 

[Noipoi]

They just went way too hard on the concept of “What if he fought like an actual monkey!” and neglected some of his personality in the process.

More expressive animations in the next game could help with that.

 

[Louie G.]

I've seen people say that Diddy shouldn't be a mind-game focused character and should instead focus more on being a spontaneous, almost reckless kind of fighter. I agree with them, given that Diddy's whole thing is supposed to be him being inexperienced and cocky (which, funnily enough, is better expressed in Subspace cutscenes than in-game).

He's got glimpses of that, with Monkey Flip being a fantastic burst movement option and fitting of the character, but then you have Banana Peel which kinda goes against that by being this super-deep combo and mindgame enabling tool to the point where it feels like the whole character revolves around it.

Honestly, thinking it over now, I think on that front they did pretty well by his specials. His rocketbarrel is one of the most reckless and unpredictable recoveries in the game, with such a range of motion during charge and especially with the quirk of the pack losing control and flying all over the damn place if he's hit in the process. And the popgun's got that silly effect where if you charge it for too long it will explode, and can even cause damage that way. So I think thought must have definitely been put into representing this element of Diddy Kong's personality.

Of course, they could do even better. And I have to agree that the bananas really do become his whole thing, although I like the added prankiness and unpredictability that it adds to Diddy Kong's kit on paper. Perhaps balancing this out a little more, strengthening Diddy Kong's more reckless options while dialing back on the follow-ups he can get off of bananas may be a way to balance out his character... I dunno how, but yeah the former element of the character gets a bit obscured as it currently stands. I think most of his normals are pretty much fine, although they could probably use some tweaks in the animation department just to keep him fresh.

 

[fogbadge]

Are we done sharing which franchises in smash we’ve played? I thought it was an interesting topic

 

[Perkilator]

I think if they wanna do away with the banana for a new down special, the Popgun Pound he does in the Retro Studios DKC games would make a fine substitute.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I think if they wanna do away with the banana for a new down special, the Popgun Pound he does in the Retro Studios DKC games would make a fine substitute.

Or a swapping move that switches to Dixie. I really think Sakurai should revisit that idea; we're nearing the point of Nintendo consoles having PS4 level power, so technical limitations shouldn't be as much as a factor in moveset designs as they've been in the past.

 

[Guynamednelson]

we're nearing the point of Nintendo consoles having PS4 level power, so technical limitations shouldn't be as much as a factor in moveset designs as they've been in the past.

Leaks are saying the Switch 2 will be closer to the PS4 Pro than the base PS4, actually. The TTYD remake having support for rendering in 4K supports that IMO, base PS4 can't do 4K

But even then, transformations shouldn't really have issues with technical limitations on non-3DS systems anyway if the Wii could already do the Pokemon Trainer with a couple more mechanics than his Ultimate counterpart.

 

[SharkLord]

Leaks are saying the Switch 2 will be closer to the PS4 Pro than the base PS4, actually. The TTYD remake having support for rendering in 4K supports that IMO, base PS4 can't do 4K

But even then, transformations shouldn't really have issues with technical limitations on non-3DS systems anyway if the Wii could already do the Pokemon Trainer with a couple more mechanics than his Ultimate counterpart.

At this point I think Rex and Pyra as some sort of duo fighter would be the one thing scrapped from Ultimate that would benefit from the hardware update. I believe Sakurai said in an interview that Rex and Pyra together had too many polygons to run well at once - The Icies got away with it because they're very simplistic designs - So it was easier to just have Pyra and Mythra as a stance fighter, with Rex popping up on the side

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

True, true, you both make fair points. I was spitballing a bit to try and explain wht Diddy gets passed up on. For what it's worth, I think there's still a bit of recency bias in play, since Tropical Freeze was the last super big DK game we got until the Mario vs Donkey Kong remake, and at the port alone is going on seven years now. The NSO ports are just one of many and I don't think they got a ton of advertising individually, and the Mario Kart pass had the Kongs as part of a bunch of Mario characters instead of the focus points.

That said, K. Rool's inclusion from the ballot votes and the amusement park are pretty valid points. Plus, Diddy got a little shoutout in the Mario movie, so it's not like NINTENDO HAS FORGOTTEN ABOUT DIDDY KONG or anything like that. Still, I don't think Diddy's been a major character since Tropical Freeze, and Donkey Kong in general hasn't had a super duper big presence on the Switch compared to the other big Nintendo franchises.

I dunno, it is still pretty puzzling when you stop and think about it. I'm just throwing out guesses here because I'm not really sure either

A lot of this is related to the IP proper rather than just Diddy specifically, but a video game hype cycle and broader interest is related to both recent releases and the promise of more titles... and the latter is where Donkey Kong in general is fairly weak. A remake of a spin-off like Mario vs DK is semi-encouraging, the theme park additions are hypothetically promising, and the cameos in SMB movie or Mario Kart 8 are nice.

However, none are outright new games primarily focused on the Donkey Kong sub-brand and all the speculation and common assumption that of course core Nintendo must be working on one is not a replacement of knowledge (let alone actual media) of them. Often a deeper investment in a franchise (even in small ways like Smash speculation) necessitates a trust that something's going to happen with it and for some there's simply not enough that Nintendo's done to earn that.

 

[Guynamednelson]

At this point I think Rex and Pyra as some sort of duo fighter would be the one thing scrapped from Ultimate that would benefit from the hardware update. I believe Sakurai said in an interview that Rex and Pyra together had too many polygons to run well at once - The Icies got away with it because they're very simplistic designs - So it was easier to just have Pyra and Mythra as a stance fighter, with Rex popping up on the side

Sakurai wouldn't be joking when he said that, Pyra and Mythra actually have the highest and third highest polygon counts of any Smash fighter, respectively. Rendering both Popo and Nana's models simultaneously doesn't even give you half the polycount of Pyra alone.

 

[Gorgonzales]

You could give Pyra/Mythra Rex if the next console is up to it, but at the same time their current implementation basically perfected the concept of a transforming fighter to the point where I'd be a little hesitant to give it up (even if they are a little overtuned). I will admit that I have basically zero experience with Xenoblade, so there could be a way to satisfy both camps and I just don't know it.

 

[Perkilator]

You could give Pyra/Mythra Rex if the next console is up to it, but at the same time their current implementation basically perfected the concept of a transforming fighter to the point where I'd be a little hesitant to give it up (even if they are a little overtuned). I will admit that I have basically zero experience with Xenoblade, so there could be a way to satisfy both camps and I just don't know it.

I’ve only played Xenoblade 3, but I know the DLC has Rex as one of its playable characters. In that little side story, Rex fights solo but uses both Pyra and Mythra’s swords in a dual-wielding fashion.

 

[SharkLord]

You could give Pyra/Mythra Rex if the next console is up to it, but at the same time their current implementation basically perfected the concept of a transforming fighter to the point where I'd be a little hesitant to give it up (even if they are a little overtuned). I will admit that I have basically zero experience with Xenoblade, so there could be a way to satisfy both camps and I just don't know it.

Yeah, even if they could pull it off they probably won't go through all that extra work. Rex was made into a solo fighter in Future Redeemed, as mentioned before, but Noah and/or Mio would most certainly take priority as an XC3 rep. And if we get a third Xeno character after that, it would most likely be to push a hypothetical new XC4 (Or a Xenoblade successor, at least; I think they wrapped up the current story with 3 but it's become too big a series for Nintendo to just ditch and I think they discussed the possibility of a new game already).

But yeah, bottom line is they'll probably stick with Pyra and Mythra as they are now

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

His moveset is a bit plain otherwise, and does hinge on more of a general "he's a monkey" essence than something exclusive to the character

I think you're mistaken. Monkey is actually why he's cool.

 

[TheQuester]

TBH, I feel like we'll get another sleeper 3rd party as DLC that no many where expecting, Sakurai always manages to surprise us at lest once a a game (or multiple, heh).
Watch him just add a Valorant rep or a Hades rep something unexpected lmao.

 

[Noipoi]

TBH, I feel like we'll get another sleeper 3rd party as DLC that no many where expecting, Sakurai always manages to surprise us at lest once a a game (or multiple, heh).
Watch him just add a Valorant rep or a Hades rep something unexpected lmao.

I always have “something none of us expected” jotted down as one of my predictions at all times.

 

[MasterCheef]

TBH, I feel like we'll get another sleeper 3rd party as DLC that no many where expecting, Sakurai always manages to surprise us at lest once a a game (or multiple, heh).
Watch him just add a Valorant rep or a Hades rep something unexpected lmao.

Umm what shocker niche playable rep did we get in ; SSBU ?

They are all fairly popular or have strong ties ins somehow.

 

[Dinoman96]

Umm what shocker niche playable rep did we get in ; SSBU ?

They are all fairly popular or have strong ties ins somehow.

Terry, maybe?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Smash Franchise experience:

Spoiler

Mario - Played through most games.
Donkey Kong - Played through most games.
Zelda - Played through most games.
Metroid - Played through most games.
Yoshi - Played through some games.
Kirby - Played through most games.
StarFox - Played through most games.
Pokemon - Played through most games.
Earthbound - Played some.
F-Zero - Played through some games.
Ice Climber - Played some.
Fire Emblem - Played some.
Game & Watch - Not played.
Kid Icarus - Played through one game.
Wario Ware - Played some.
Metal Gear - Played through most games.
Sonic the Hedgehog - Played through some games.
Pikmin - Not played.
ROB - Not played.
Animal Crossing - Not played.
Mega Man - Played through most games.
Wii Fit - Not played.
Punch-Out - Played through most games.
Pac-Man - Played through some games.
Xenoblade - Played through one game.
Duck Hunt - Played lots.
Street Fighter - Played through most games.
Final Fantasy - Played through most games.
Bayonetta - Played through most games.
Splatoon - Not played.
Castlevania - Played through most games.
Persona - Not played.
Dragon Quest - Played through most games.
Banjo Kazooie - Played through most games.
Fatal Fury - Played through most games.
ARMS - Not played.
Minecraft - Not played. But played lots of Terraria and Dragon Quest Builders.
Tekken - Played some.
Kingdom Hearts - Played some.

 

[ninjahmos]

TBH, I feel like we'll get another sleeper 3rd party as DLC that no many where expecting, Sakurai always manages to surprise us at lest once a a game (or multiple, heh).
Watch him just add a Valorant rep or a Hades rep something unexpected lmao.

How about Viewtiful Joe?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Umm what shocker niche playable rep did we get in ; SSBU ?

They are all fairly popular or have strong ties ins somehow.

If I had to make a guess probably Joker at the time? Felt like a big wild card (har de har) back then to most people I knew/talked to at least, even the ones that played Persona lol

 

[Noipoi]

Wii Fit - Not played.

The game called you a Fatass so you quit, huh?

We’ve all been there. No shame in it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The game called you a Fatass so you quit, huh?

I never owned a Wii or Wii U. Had no interest in motion controls.

Because I'm a fatass.

 

[JOJONumber691]

That’s rare. Also that gave me a funny image of Shinji’s dad taking off his jacket and becoming Nikocado Avocado, no offense.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Diddy Kong has consistently been one of my least used characters. His presentation doesn't appeal to me like it did in Mario Kart Wii, and he's a high skill floor pixie character so I just can't get into him.

I seem to be in the minority with liking Rex in Xenoblade Chronicles 2, but now that Pyra/Mythra is in the game, he just doesn't have a place here. You could add his time skipped version, but like, why tho? Fan rosters that add him alongside (or sometimes instead of) Mio confuse me.

Sakurai wouldn't be joking when he said that, Pyra and Mythra actually have the highest and third highest polygon counts of any Smash fighter, respectively. Rendering both Popo and Nana's models simultaneously doesn't even give you half the polycount of Pyra alone.

...Well dang.

I wonder if Officer Howard would have a similar issue.

 

[Noipoi]

That’s rare.

No, this is

Sakurai wouldn't be joking when he said that, Pyra and Mythra actually have the highest and third highest polygon counts of any Smash fighter, respectively.

 

[DarthEnderX]

That’s rare.

I tried Punch-Out with the motion controls and balance board once and determined none of that was for me.

I prefer precise controls, sitting down, and not waving my arms.

 

[SPEN18]

Wii Fit - Technically not played, but my mom has and I watched her, so counting it.