*NEW* Falco Match-Up Thread ~ Week #13: Olimar

[DMG]

You can SDI Marth's Spike. Regular DI is not enough, SDI is.

 

[Luigi player]

I'm sure the CPU would be able to do it, as a human you probably have to try reaaallllllly harrrdddd though :\

 

[exdia_16]

okay so marth is really tricky so far in the discussion but the stages are imo a little whack i take marth to frigate to win and i do but then he will cp me delfino or lylat(can't stand lylat) and maybe win if im not playing right.but how do you punish marth's dtilt its so annoying when recovering i can sideB to recover from a fair or fsmash to the mouth if i grab the stage he will dtilt me before i hit the ledge.i kneed a good punisher for this move.

 

[Denzi]

You should be able to grab the ledge without getting Dtilted if you phantasm at the right height, but I don't see why the Marth wouldn't just grab the ledge if he's that close to it.

I would just mixup when/where/how far you side B, as you should be able to safely recover more often than not if you use the cancels.

Also Frigate just sounds like a bad idea to me. Dtilt trap against the wall. And Marth gimps us more than we gimp Marth.

 

[swordsaint]

Frigate isn't a stage that a Marth should take Falco anyway.

Brinstar, BF and Yoshi's always seem to be the most common Marth counterpicks to me. (BF doesn't bother me though, I love this stage.)

Ban Brinstar and Delfino has been the next common choice.

Back on Frigate though. It's not that bad a stage for Falco IMO. I've never had 'huge' trouble on it as a stage and character relationship. The only trouble I've had on this stage are experience issues where I didn't understand the 'flip' properties and ended up below the stage. It wasn't Falco, but me. ANYWAY! Hold your ground properly on Frigate and it shouldn't be an issue. Kept left in the section where the right side doesn't have a ledge and you'll do fine. Keep to the middle in the section with the ditch.

Frigate's ceiling isn't huge so we do get some slightly earlier kills.

Marth as a character doesn't have many stages that work to his benefit as such (minus something like Brinstar imo). Marth's a character that doesn't really have any major issues on any stage either. Unfortunately for Falco this is a good thing (for Marth) and it means he can CP Falco's worst stages with little or no set back. They'll want stages that limit IAP's and recoveries on to the stage. In other words slants.

Lylat is another viable CP Marth could choose, but personally I don't struggle on this stage in the slightest. I beat MK's here fairly often when they decide to choose it.

 

[Denzi]

I know Frigate isn't that bad a stage for Falco, and sometimes I'll pick it myself to discourage people from picking ICs if I know they 2nd them. I was just saying that intentionally taking a Marth there (which he said he did) might not be the best idea, as there are other stages that are better choices for us.

 

[dainbramage]

If the second part of frigate was a stage on its own I'd use it as a counterpick. And on the first part, the lack of a ledge on the right is just as bad for marth as it is for us.

 

[Denzi]

If the second part of frigate was a stage on its own I'd use it as a counterpick. And on the first part, the lack of a ledge on the right is just as bad for marth as it is for us.

You're right about the 2nd part of the stage, but I still think the missing ledge is more of a problem for us. It forces us to recover either high or onstage. Recovering high puts us right into a juggle trap from Marth, and recovering onstage gets us hit back out of Phantasm by pretty much any of Marth's moves, possibly grab released out of it for a free kill closer to the edge.

 

[DEHF]

You can f smash Marth out of his b before he can sweet spot the ledge on Yoshi's

 

[SlashTalon]

You can f smash Marth out of his b before he can sweet spot the ledge on Yoshi's

his upB?
how close to the edge should we be?

 

[DEHF]

his upB?
how close to the edge should we be?

Try to be as close as possible

 

[SlashTalon]

Try to be as close as possible

Awesome, thank you sir.
I'll try it out.
Does it kill reliably? Like sweet spot Fsmash or just pop them up or off the stage?

 

[DEHF]

It always sweet spots when I do it, but it's pretty hard to land. You can also dair marth out of his up b before he can sweet spot the ledge on any stage, but you need amazing timing to do it.

 

[SlashTalon]

It always sweet spots when I do it, but it's pretty hard to land. You can also dair marth out of his up b before he can sweet spot the ledge on any stage, but you need amazing timing to do it.

So I've noticed.

Any way to avoid any Fthrow->Fthrow->Fthrow->Fsmash(Tip) from 0%?

I asked you this in another topic but it fits here better:
What is the best response to the Dancing Blade combo and its variations?

I know a shield grab is almost guaranteed after the 3rd swing, any more efficient ways to punish?

EDIT:
DEHF, if you ever have to play Kadaj I will tell you he loves the first hit of sideB and its setups

 

[swordsaint]

Fthrow x 3 > fsmash is wrong

should be something like
fthrow> fthrow > dthrow > dthrow > dthrow > fsmash tip (something like 40 odd percent)

 

[Denzi]

I think it goes to 45%. The fthrow one does around 27% or so.

And I don't think you can avoid it, but the Marth may slip up on a dthrow once in a while.

Can we really SDI fthrow > fthrow > dair? I've never seen it happen.

 

[SlashTalon]

Can we really SDI fthrow > fthrow > dair? I've never seen it happen.

If its perfectly spaced I've heard its unavoidable, but if the spacing allows a stage/tech tech its possible

 

[Denzi]

If its perfectly spaced I've heard its unavoidable, but if the spacing allows a stage/tech tech its possible

That's what I thought too, but DMG insists it's always possible.

 

[Bloodcross]

Ignore the troll

I asked you this in another topic but it fits here better:
What is the best response to the Dancing Blade combo and its variations?

I know a shield grab is almost guaranteed after the 3rd swing, any more efficient ways to punish?

You can UpSmash after the 3rd swing (like I mentioned earlier). Pretty sure you can Ftilt, Dash Attack, and shieldgrab to punish too. Hell you could probably Dtilt.

 

[Denzi]

And if you can do all that you can Jab too.

Stupid question for the guy running this to be asking, but what matchups have we talked about that aren't in the first post yet? I sort of lost track because I was busy with irl things.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Throughout the beginning of a match vs Marth, simply play center-stage and you won't get zero death'd. Either that or platform camp. One Fair from Marth (13%) is all that's needed to get out of CG Spike percent really.

• Falco can UpSmash Marth after the 3rd hit of DB.
• Falco can really keep Marth away from the stage with good prediction. Marths tend to, either, ledgehop Nair, Fair, or Shieldbreaker (Neutral B). I usually just shieldgrab/BPG since Marth can't really space Nair/Fair perfectly when hopping from the ledge.
• Dash attack is a really good OOS punish against Fair when spaced, can lead to Gattling combo afterwards. Dair, Grab, and Ftilt are generally always useful.
• Avoid Delfino imo. I personally want all of the neutrals I can get, so I don't avoid BF against Marth. Just personal preference really. Also, I doubt Marth would take Falco to Brinstar... but again that's just me as I think Marth sucks on Brinstar. He's not bad on RC, so that's another option to ban.

You can f smash Marth out of his b before he can sweet spot the ledge on Yoshi's

It always sweet spots when I do it, but it's pretty hard to land. You can also dair marth out of his up b before he can sweet spot the ledge on any stage, but you need amazing timing to do it.

Marth:Falco should almost certainly stay at 55:45.

Bloodcross had a pretty good summary that could be elaborated on just a bit, and DEHF's tips could be added and we could pretty much be done with Marth already.


Unless anyone disagrees?

 

[swordsaint]

don't disagree too much

but we havent really been doing too many summaries yet

 

[9millimeter]

How is it fox's match-up ?

 

[9millimeter]

I made a falco chat please come, http://xat.com/f9lounge

 

[exdia_16]

so who's next on falco's bounty list? Zelda maybe?

 

[Deathfox30]

Zelda would be nice. .-. You guys have it as 50-50, they have it as 35-65/40-60. :3

 

[swordsaint]

Lol. We **** Zelda...really badly. Zelda is such an easy match up.

I'd seriously put it at 70:30.

 

[Vlade]

Week #11 Marth? I thought it was week 3 >_>

Someone fill me in here please.

 

[Teran]

I don't think a thread's been made, but I suppose it will soon.

I trust Denzi to keep things in order, he's a good boy.

 

[Denzi]

Marth was originally week three, people asked for a rediscussion. I suppose I forgot and threw another number on it anyway, whoops xD

I'm sorry I've been behind on this guys, I'll try to keep it up.

So I guess we're on to Zelda now.

 

[swordsaint]

Oh zelda. you so easy

those sheiks however. ;-;

 

[Trott]

Oh zelda. you so easy

those sheiks however. ;-;

I'm looking forward to the sheik discussion since I keep getting wrecked by Light's sheik

 

[Denzi]

Well Zelda was requested but is also a fantastic segue into Shiek.

Which I'm saying is a nice even 50:50.

But we'll get to that soon enough.

 

[swordsaint]

I dunno about 50-50. I think we have the slight upper hand, but it's definitely an annoying matchup, but yes leave that for next week unless we finish up Zelda nice and quick.

 

[Cloud9157]

Sheik/Falco is definitely even imo. I'd go into it, but its not Sheik's turn.

 

[ADHD]

Are you guys really discussing zelda?

Just like.. hit her, LMAO.

 

[Typ_Ex]

Are you guys really discussing zelda?

Just like.. hit her, LMAO.

ill hit you

i dont know why i am suscribed to this thread, but this almost makes it all worth it.

 

[swordsaint]

I'd say that even though only a couple of posts have been made on Zelda, there's no reason to continue it. I can't foresee anything new on that matchup and it's such an easy one I didn't see the point to begin with.

I don't think the matchups with Ganon, Captain Falcon or Link have changed much either and would probably suggest just saying they've been updated. I'd say the ratio is accurate.

The next ones I personally would want to discuss are R.O.B, Kirby and G&W. Only because the chart still says we're disadvantaged on them, which we're most certainly not.

 

[Cloud9157]

Agreed with the Kirby/ROB/GaW idea.

 

[Denzi]

I know guys, I'm getting to it. I already said we're doing Sheik next, but I'll be sure to get those out of the way right after.