New AT: SDR Uber-Turnaround (SDRUT)

[infomon]

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6mv2f4KQug

Someone gotta explain this to me.

The SDR Uber-Turnaround (SDRUT) caused 19% to Teh_Umby. I'm guessing it happened somehow because of hitting his sheild? An SDR at the edge of the main platform, shieldpush allowed an SDR-turnaround to happen really fast, which allowed multiple SDR hits to happen all at once?

Crazy!

Thanks umby

also..... THIS IS MY 3000th POST!! RAWR!!!

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[Arikie]

Can it only be done if you hit their shield?

 

[Kinzer]

I have no idea how this was done but @Arikie:

No.

Try doing a "SDRUT" on the ice stage of Pkmn Stad II and see what happens.

As for Infzy, I could of like U-Turn better, but regardless congrats on being 2slow (I got moar posts ).

 

[infomon]

hmmm

U-Turn is a better name.

I need to experiment more with what caused this to happen.

Also, remember SCROD: Super Crazy Roll Of Doom? Well on the chat it was decided we should rename it to SCROO: Super Crazy Roll of Ownage. That way you can say "you got SCROO'd!"

 

[Nixernator]

What would start happening if you hopped on the 2nd hit? I'm feeling 30%+ SC/SDR combos here .
Way cool tho.

 

[Napilopez]

Gosh infzy, you're always there for the neato footage! XD

This is really odd. At least for SCROO(this new name is awesome btw) it was quite visibly explainable... but this I can't seem to understand the physics of it, and I'm a prospective physics major! D:

XD

Hmm, there are two things that particularly strike me as odd:

1) The turnaround speed, and that its actually a turnaround. As in, you can actually see the turnaround animation, just for some odd reason it is sped up or missing frame.

2) The fact that it does damage at all: Remember, Sonic does no damage whatsoever during a turnaround, normally, yet this does 19, and the SDR never even left the stage. Furthermore, the hits were clearly AFTER the turnaround had begun, and since sonic doesn't leave the platform during a turnaround, pI don't see how it could have been an ASC or something. Also, had it been an ASC that was the first hit, that doesn't explain the instant turnaround. Yet, it very well may have been ASC, since the first hit did 11 damage, perhaps 10 damage due to fractional stuff.

As a possibly related note, I know that if you use DownB into your opponent at low percentages when they are standing near the edge of a platform, you can hit twice for a max of 21 damage, which I believe is from grounded SDR hit> ASC hit immediately once sonic leaves the platform.

This really makes me wonder about Sonic's Roll phase changes, they seem to have alot of odd properties(super priority, for example). We should try to do some reasearch to see if certain unusual actions can be done during the phase changes.

This scenario seems fairly easy to replicate, just have someone shield near the edge, and let the other Sonic charge SD for almost exactly half a second, release and attempt a turnaround.

Hmm... if you pause the vid righttt after the SDR hits the shield you will note the "ball" is perfectly round, as it is during ASC but not SDR. it also looks like it may just slightlyyyy be offstage... hmmm

Also interesting to note, in my scrod video, my turnaround at the end seems to be instant too....

We should really look into those phase changes XD

 

[MalcolmM]

Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery Innnnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting ^_^

I like U-turn but I also like the word Uber so Uber U-Turn? AKA DOUBLE U AKA W?

 

[Jim Morrison]

What I think is ASC off the stage (causing first damage), but turned around back to the stage somehow and hit with SDR. Could be totally wrong. Nonetheless, this does seem rather situational.

 

[infomon]

A-ha!

If you watch the damage meter carefully, it transitions twice:
1. 6 -> 17 = 11% damage
2. 17 -> 25 = 8% damage

and Nappylupz made the astute observation that the spindash "ball" becomes perfectly round after it hits Umby's shield; that is, it became a rolling ASC. This has been known to happen to SDRs that become artifically slowed as they roll along the ground; the rolling ASC can be shield-cancelled. (You can see this in the GHZ examples of my side-B/down-B vid.)

The reason I am now confident that it became a rolling ASC is because you can't get 11% damage from an SDR -- unless it's going reeally fast, like from a slope. But there's no slope here, and if anything it was going slow. So the first hit must have been an ASC.

The second hit seems to have been from an SDR, although I don't think it was technically a turnaround. Notice that if you turnaround at the edge... your hitbox doesn't come out until much later. ShadowLink talked about sometimes B moves have weird properties at the edge, I didn't really get the details of what he was talking about but he seemed to grok this phenomenon already.

idk, so rolling ASC first hit and then that somehow allows an immediate SDR backwards from the edge? I'd love to be able to reproduce this!

 

[MarKO X]

So, in a normal situation, SDR on turnaround loses its hitbox. Does hitting someone upon the moment of turning around change that property? Probably not...

BUT...

Since it was an ASC at the moment of the hit for whatever reason, the turnaround must've counted as a pseudo-landing from the ASC, which may explain why it gets instant damage from the turnaround.

If you are to accept that theory, the question is now why did the SDR turn into an ASC?

Edit: Looking at Sonic SDR Madness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BghNRvRh9gI&feature=channel_page), I think that there is something inherently weird/awesome about SDR Turns on a ledge. If you look closely, the first hit of SDR Madness is in fact an SDR. It then turns into an ASC and hits maybe three or four more times. Then when finished, Sonic is facing the other direction. I think the two are related somehow.

Edit the Sequel: SDRWT

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

It looks to me that it only became round like an ASC just as it was as far as it could go over the ledge. It was an ASC on the last hit Sonic was going left and you somehow did the input for the turn around right on the frame(s?) Sonic's state was changing from grounded roll to ASC. Which tricked the game into thinking you had done a spin dash offstage up onto the stage, which gave you the "intstant turnaround".

Pause somewhere at 0:24 (somewhere in that second). It's somewhat blurry, but for an instant the rolling Sonic starts to go over the ledge. But then comes back up and hits going the other way.

doigetsteak? :D

 

[JayBee]

This is what happened in the clip.

1) SDR connected on a blocking sonic near the edge
2) the knockback from the attack being blocked was enough to push the sonic off the platform. this happens often in brawl.
3) the SDR continues, and hits the flailing sonic just as he begins to fall off the stage.
4) then as the sonic turns the SDR around, the hitbox reactivates.

one of two things happened that made the second hit happen. either

1: the sonic takign the hit was caught off gaurd from when he fell off the platform, and which case the distraction prevented any countermeasure on his part to avoid the second hit

2: or because the turnaround and the SDR happened so close to the edge, added with the low knockback of the SDR, the re-active hitbox was able to reach the sonic in hitstun right after the SDR hit, in which case, its simply an awkward two-hit combo with SDR.

the end.


edit: still is a cool move. i may try to do it in a real match one day...

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I think we're trying to explain why said hitbox activated so soon Kojin XD

 

[JayBee]

im looking at it now, and i still cant figure it out. i"ll have to do it myself if i can...

EDIT: heres a theory.

remember whenever you connect against an object with SDR, it looks as though it got slowed down? this IMO is because it gets stuck there for x number of frames. what if in that time period you can buffer the turnaround then tap back in the direction you were going? maybe this is a manipulation of the buffering system during SDR's slight hitlag?

this would explain the funny transition of SDR into ASC. just as the spin leaves the platform, there is a frame point where the spin becomes ASC. if in that frame he buffered the turnaround, since he was technically in transition, but still possible to turnaround because he wasn't completely off the platform?

my head hurts...

discuss...

 

[MalcolmM]

The W seems very complicated @_@

 

[Trillion]

I think I got this figured out. My explanation might be really crappy, but I REALLY do think that I have this figured out.

I think we have misunderstood the way that a SDR turnaround works. It is not that he goes and then slows down and turns around finally, its that he turns around and his momentum continues pulling him in the direction that he was initially going until his acceleration in the opposite direction becomes greater than the velocity that he was initially traveling. Basically, I'm saying that as soon as you tell him to turn around, he does, but he has to reverse the momentum that his roll is taking him. I think that during this time, he is rolling backwards, in this case he is rolling to the right, but he is facing to the left.

So, Infzy was facing backwards at the point where he went off the stage. The SDR if you can pause it at a certain part at 0:35 in the video connects with Umby's shield. So, Sonic experiences sheild hit stun as he is trying to turn around. During the shield hit stun, he travels off the stage but the animation for the turn around is not shown because it is taking place in the shield hit stun animation. His momentum can not begin to change while he is in shield hit stun, so he continues off the stage. This is where it turns into an ASC.

Edit: Add this in to the above paragraph somewhere:
If you pause the vid at 0:37, then you can see that UMBY actually falls off the stage. As he is off the stage, Infzy hits him. So perhaps the fact that the SDR hit an opponent who was in the air made the game think that Infzy must be in the air as well.

The ASC connects and does 11%. The turn around is complete and so he is now traveling toward the stage ini the ASC and so he then instantly lands as if he never went off the stage at all thus landing another hit from the SDR.

So, the missing frames of the SDR turn around are lost during the frames of shield hit stun.

 

[JayBee]

so, in short, the turnaround animation was stalled due to shield hit stun...

 

[aeghrur]

But hey, with that, we might have figured out a new property of the SDR phase changes.
Awesomeness, now we just need to know how to abuse this. xD

 

[Trillion]

so, in short, the turnaround animation was stalled due to shield hit stun...

But hey, with that, we might have figured out a new property of the SDR phase changes.
Awesomeness, now we just need to know how to abuse this. xD

Well, yeah, if I'm right. If I'm wrong, then I'm not sure what it means. I mean, keep in mind that I'm just making an educated guess based on what I'm seeing. If I'm right, then awesome, if someone else has a better explanation then I'm all ears because my explanation is still puzzling even to myself.


I thought of something kinda interesting for this though. Let's say you do this on yoshi island (brawl) and you do the invincible spin dash. You could kinda just spam invincible spin dashes and if they try to shield near the ledge then they risk taking 19% lol.

 

[Napilopez]

So many compelling explanations....

I watched the vid again and would like to note some other factors, and bring in images to help explainify stuff.

My current theory:

Sonic hits shield, and then begins a turnaround(watch 0:36 - 0:38, sonic clearly turns around before hitting). Somehow, hitting the shield allowed sonic to roll off the stage for an instant, causing him to hit with ASC as the other Sonic falls off due to shield push. Though this shouldn't happen, because turnarounds usually don't allow sonic to leave the stage, it seems the shield hit might have altered something. As KID suggested to me, it might have been similar to that vid of the Sonic dong a Usmash and then falling offthestage after having it shielded.

Also, hm... You know how when the ASC has horizontal momentum, you can change its direction? I think that is perhaps what happened here. When the SDR became an ASC, infzy was holding backwards, so rather than moving forward, off the stage, it simply returned back onto the stage and instantly became an SDR for the second hit.

I would realllyyyy like to look into what can be done during phase changes.

Someone needs to replicate this in training mode at 1/4th speed.

EDIT:

During the shield hit stun, he travels off the stage but the animation for the turn around is not shown because it is taking place in the shield hit stun animation. His momentum can not begin to change while he is in shield hit stun, so he continues off the stage. This is where it turns into an ASC.

I like all of your theory about momentum, but as my screengrabs display, the turnaround animation does happen . At least the first half.

----------------------------------------------------------

So I did some frame analysis while I was writing this. I selected the most important frames IMO, although this is almost all of them anyways XD

1) Shield Impact Happens:

2) Umby's Sonic begins to fall off the platform. Also, notice the spin. This frame clearly indicates a turnaround. I compared it with a frame by frame of a 1/4th speed turnaround animation, and its the exact same shape:

3) The first hit begins. Notice how sonic is on the veryyy edge of the platform. However, In brawl, if you were that close to the edge, you would be off it. He is technically off the platform. Also notice the perfect roundness and slightly darker look of the ball, just like an ASC:

4) Second frame of the hit:

5) Third frame:

6) Fourth frame:

7) Now, this is the interesting part to me. This frame is immediately after the previous. there is no type of transition, it just immediately. This is also when the second hit occurs:

 

[Tenki]

i remember asking about this a long time ago D;

noone ever gave me an answer when I asked about it.


:[


I don't think it can be the 'slow SDR' / "rolling ASC" exactly because you had a rather charged spindash that won't get slowed down through a single hit.

i'm not exploring it this time though. It was a fluke when I did it, and it happens even rarer than ASC perfect combos lol.

 

[xXTACXx]

just loos to me the attack hit twice, once shieldpoking him and somehow had no knockback and hit him again as you where turning around.

 

[Tenki]

in case you don't know anything about Sonic's spindash roll, the turnaround usually takes at least half a second, and there is no hitbox at all during the turnaround animation.

This was an instant turnaround, with a hitbox out the whole time.

That's where the mystery is.

 

[|RK|]

What about calling it

The Uber Turnaround?

And best of luck to you Sonics!

May you discover brilliant new techniques!

​

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

It looks to me that it only became round like an ASC just as it was as far as it could go over the ledge. It was an ASC on the last hit Sonic was going left and you somehow did the input for the turn around right on the frame(s?) Sonic's state was changing from grounded roll to ASC. Which tricked the game into thinking you had done a spin dash offstage up onto the stage, which gave you the "intstant turnaround".

Pause somewhere at 0:24 (somewhere in that second). It's somewhat blurry, but for an instant the rolling Sonic starts to go over the ledge. But then comes back up and hits going the other way.

doigetsteak? :D

I think I got this figured out. My explanation might be really crappy, but I REALLY do think that I have this figured out.

I think we have misunderstood the way that a SDR turnaround works. It is not that he goes and then slows down and turns around finally, its that he turns around and his momentum continues pulling him in the direction that he was initially going until his acceleration in the opposite direction becomes greater than the velocity that he was initially traveling. Basically, I'm saying that as soon as you tell him to turn around, he does, but he has to reverse the momentum that his roll is taking him. I think that during this time, he is rolling backwards, in this case he is rolling to the right, but he is facing to the left.

So, Infzy was facing backwards at the point where he went off the stage. The SDR if you can pause it at a certain part at 0:35 in the video connects with Umby's shield. So, Sonic experiences sheild hit stun as he is trying to turn around. During the shield hit stun, he travels off the stage but the animation for the turn around is not shown because it is taking place in the shield hit stun animation. His momentum can not begin to change while he is in shield hit stun, so he continues off the stage. This is where it turns into an ASC.

Edit: Add this in to the above paragraph somewhere:
If you pause the vid at 0:37, then you can see that UMBY actually falls off the stage. As he is off the stage, Infzy hits him. So perhaps the fact that the SDR hit an opponent who was in the air made the game think that Infzy must be in the air as well.

The ASC connects and does 11%. The turn around is complete and so he is now traveling toward the stage ini the ASC and so he then instantly lands as if he never went off the stage at all thus landing another hit from the SDR.

So, the missing frames of the SDR turn around are lost during the frames of shield hit stun.

If we combine my and MM's Explanations and I think we have a winner.

 

[Xiivi]

Actually I was playing Sonic vs. Owna with KID there a long while ago and this happened. I have the reply still I believe. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Tenki]

The one thing that I think all of our cases have in common is it involves an SDR hit on the edge.



;o

if you'd like to solve the mystery, go ahead.

however, the situationality may be ... a turnoff for alot of people.

 

[infomon]

however, the situationality may be ... a turnoff for alot of people.

Except that we're Sonics. We thrive on an elaborate myriad of accidental moveset glitches, ftw. Actually most low-tiers do; it's what gives us hope, despite our ******** circumstance. But in Sonic's case, we can abuse sooo many pseudorandom circumstantial happenings within the course of a tourney that we can be reeeeally tedious to fight against, lol.

 

[Tenki]

well, i'm just saying, that placement/situation is really similar to a certain other thing that people seem to like to shoot down.

usmashspikelol

 

[Kinzer]

There's nothing wrong with more stupid stuff with our Spin attacks. XD

 

[Nixernator]

So moving on from why it happened for a bit. If your opponent is shielding on the edge they can't do anything if you hit them with a SDR? Could this have uses against people? Maybe projectile campers or something they tend to hang near the edge. Also I still wanna see what happens if you jump the SDR during the 2nd hit, would you get a 3rd hit? And you could then possibly follow up with a HA (lawl I wanna find a use for it) for a 4th hit?

 

[Kinzer]

If they're close to getting off the stage, the pushback will shove them off the stage... if not, then they still can't do anything to you unless you happen to be coming out of your SDR, in which case they do as they please.

 

[Nixernator]

So as long as the shield knockback, slides them off the stage they can't hurt you and you get a free hit? Sounds pretty gnarly to me. I'm still trying to think of ways to set it up.

 

[Chaco]

Except that we're Sonics. We thrive on an elaborate myriad of accidental moveset glitches, ftw. Actually most low-tiers do; it's what gives us hope, despite our ******** circumstance. But in Sonic's case, we can abuse sooo many pseudorandom circumstantial happenings within the course of a tourney that we can be reeeeally tedious to fight against, lol.

QFT.

Also, I have an odd desire to pick up Sonic now.

SDRUT totally beats DR on the name game. Why can't we have cool names?!

 

[Kinzer]

Well that's not exactly true...

Although the chances are your opponent will not be expecting this, in a normal situation (A.K.A. not whatever this was), if the opponent is expecting to get knocked off the platform, they could use one of their quick aerials, and perhaps it can swat you out of it.

But again nobody is really going to be expecting this, and you probably will never have to worry about being countered for doing a non-crazy SDRU-Turn other than having it end as you're trying to move away and you didn't send your opponent off.

Edit: LOL Chaco, everybody is curious, they all want to pick up Sonic for whatever reason.

Perhaps all our preaching has finally done something. :3

 

[Nixernator]

Lol oh well, it sounds rare and fun enough to try and get to happen in at least one tourny set.

 

[PhoenixoKaZe]

QFT.

Also, I have an odd desire to pick up Sonic now.

SDRUT totally beats DR on the name game. Why can't we have cool names?!

XD ^^, lols u should try him out, he`s fun XD ^^

 

[Kinzer]

Nhm.

Please try and keep this somewhat on-topic, I only wanted to help Nix understand some stuff.

Could it have gone in the rFAQ? Sure, but since his question was related to what the subject was at hand, he's alright and I answered him so that he could know and prepare.

This will be my last post in here, I wish I knew more about what the thing was but my guess is that it will only work in limited situations where the opponent has to be pushed off the stage and you have to time the U-Turn right.

 

[Chaco]

I should try him...I might just now.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I thought i explained this looong time ago and I just recently confirmed it.

This is a ledge cancel.

The reason is simply because it is canceling just as the turn around starts,

You can see this when you whiff Wolf's Side B. He side B's and has a standing animation in the air but then immediately slips off since he just isnt on the stage. The game immediately gives him his recovery and side B again because it went to that standing animation.

For Sonic, when he hit the shield and began his turn around, the shield pushed him enough so that he canceled on the ledge. So just as he gets pushed off the ledge by the shield, he had begun his turning animation.
But Sonic's Side B has its own momentum, so right as he did he turn and was pushed off the ledge(causing the cancel), the momentum of the side B remained, and so he continued in the other direction on the stage.

If Sonic's Side B did not have such a property, instead, he would have been turned around and ffell towards the inside of the stage.

This same type of behavior can be seen in Pokemon stadium 2 during the electric stage.
Start up either the Down B or side B (max charge from what I have done.).
Race towards the edge and right as you are about to fall off hit right. Sonic will cancel the entire turn around animation and go in the direction you hit instantly.

I dont think sonic needs that bit of extra speed (though it makes it easier) since we know that shields give opposite push to whatever hits them.
Most likely, what happened was that when he hit the shield, the hitstun of the move was enough so that he could turn on the required frame.

So in theory, you could do this without hitting the opponent. Its just really friggin hard to time. (sort of like MK falling with the enemy after he dash grabs them near the edge)


Edit: Oh and at his request I shall belittle his 3000 post mark. Mine is better. 5000 FTW