Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[Kokomaniac]

You guys are insane. How am I supposed to live up to my in game name (Flash) if I don't use PK Flash at every flashy opportunity?

 

[Luco]

PK Flash (normally uncharged) is basically your umbrella from D-airs that would be too risky to trade hits with our U-air. I actually got a PK Flash kill when my friend was Toon Link and tried to D-air me. The timing was so intense though xD

I remember when our thread title last year was 'our New Year's resolution: Use more PK Flash.'

That was the reason that game with dre happened where I almost won even being at a 2-stock deficiency. I showed it to you guys a little while ago. :3

 

[Aaven]

I remember when our thread title last year was 'our New Year's resolution: Use more PK Flash.'

That was the reason that game with dre happened where I almost won even being at a 2-stock deficiency. I showed it to you guys a little while ago. :3

That's quite the resolution ha.

I think I use PK Flash about once every 200 matches. It just never crosses my mind in a legitimate match unless I hit neutral-B by accident.

 

[Susi]

PK Flash is Super legit against dair happy GW! Other good uses are PK Flash under a platform when your opponent is above it since he cant airdodge trough it and punishing approaching tornado. Uncharged comes fast enough in that situation. Ill prefer not trying this if MK is NOT at the ledge! Remember to press b on reaction since PK Flash reads are way too tough. If he retreats it, you shouldnt be punished. But you have to be crazy if you throw it out often!! :D

Dont forget that PK Flash comboes into aerials! Shield break at zero guarantees you like over 50%.

 

[Luco]

@Trine: Sometimes that happens to me but I sometimes remember it and throw it out, especially against chars who have trouble off-stage, like oli. :3

 

[Aaven]

@Trine: Sometimes that happens to me but I sometimes remember it and throw it out, especially against chars who have trouble off-stage, like oli. :3

I've been practicing with K9 on Ness' MUs for the past few days to prepare for the Lvl Up Expo tournament in Nevada that Arizona is carpooling to. I love getting those unexpected Up B kills when you just chase them to the roof with the orb when they're at high percents, it's so sneaky but amazing.

Hyped, haven't gone OoS since ReveLAtions.

 

[Aaven]

Edit: Double post garbage.

 

[Luco]

K9? OoS not being 'out of shield'? I'm so confused, my friend...

 

[Tikao]

ninja-Luco ... saying exactly what would have said xD ... some psi-brother telepathy :D

 

[Aaven]

K9? OoS not being 'out of shield'? I'm so confused, my friend...

Sorry I should have specified haha.

K9 is Shawn Bruce, he is the #1 Player on the Arizona Power Rankings and an amazing Falco main, seconds MK. He's one of my oldest friends in the AZ Smash Scene, we've known each other for about three years, and he's been helping me with all the worst Ness MUs to get ready for the Vegas tourney AZ is carpooling to.

By OoS I meant that AZ players were going Out-Of-State to compete, though I realize how confusing that probably was since that was basically the abbreviation for Out-Of-Shield.

 

[Kokomaniac]

What's the best way to pressure someone when they're off stage? Usually if I can't stop them from getting to the ledge, I'll try to make it difficult for my opponent to jump back up by using fair, nair, and sometimes bair, and if I'm trying to gimp them I'll go for a spike or fair them while off the edge and then jump back. I also use PKT and PK Flash to pressure off the edge. Anything else you can do reliably? Sometimes they'll catch the ledge and then drop down and immediately jump up with an aerial and counter my ledge pressure, but I think that's just a matter of reading it and countering it myself.

 

[Jamwa]

PKT is unavoidable for most characters off stage, just depends if you have time to use it. Even if they grab the ledge you can loop it around then hit yourself away from the ledge. if the ledge attck you itll miss, if the normal get up or rolling get up theyll die. its ez :D

this is probably the best way to edge guard as it is unpunishable if you do it right but the enemy can avoid it if theyre smart.

something with more risk:reward is dairing offstage, but jumping at them and waiting for them to airdodge, then dairing them, or just fairing/dairing the ledge.
you can hit people with pkfire on the ledge too, so use that as a mixup

 

[Kokomaniac]

Yeah I figured, I use PKT a lot when edgeguarding but it just doesn't feel like I'm doing much and that I could be doing more, which why I try to use aerials too and yeah sometimes pk fire

 

[yoshi8984]

Can someone help me on the Olimar MU? I got ***** pretty badly against him yesterday...

 

[Jamwa]

Can someone help me on the Olimar MU? I got ***** pretty badly against him yesterday...

your Nair beats his usmash
full hop PKF is good in this to some extent, gets onlimar on an angle so it doesnt hit the pikmin and you dodge the incoming pikmin at the same time.
refresh your moves with dtilt on pikmin if you want
if he is spamming pikmin, just nair them as they hit you and you'll take no damage.
do not try and outcamp an olimar if you are not on a stock lead, because if you aren't, the olimar can stall it out and come out as victor. if you have the stock lead, you can run away from him and bait/force out mistakes. if you are camping, go to SV and PKT olimar whilst tailwhipping the pikmin he throws at you - this is kinda hard and i dont reccomend it, use it as a mixup.
fair is awesome in this mu, just try not to get predictable or you will be pivot grabbed.
this MU is literally about Ness predicting what olimar is going to do (i.e. roll, pivot grab, smash, aerial) when ness approaches, because olimar aint gonna be approaching you. the best way to secure a lead is to get olimar off the ledge without a jump, and then protect the edge with the tail of PKT and this will effectively gimp olimar, as the tail prevents him from grabbing the ledge.
if you are offstage, do not get hit be a pikmin (NAIR/UAIR IT OFF IF ITS ON YOU), because it will eat up your PKT before it pops out of your head.

all in all, this mu is impossible, olimar will be forcing you to approach and ness has not many mixups/options that beat a well placed pivot grab (that is imba btw)

for some reason i prefer ness over lucas in this MU, probably because im bad and i just resort to Ness' nair to beat most of olimars moves, and then gimp lol.. lucas has a harder time getting into olimar but once he does its very easy to combo him

 

[Kokomaniac]

My friends olimar 3 stocked me despite the fact that we're near on the same level of play

 

[PK Jibaku]

Anyone have any tips to recovering back on stage versus an MK? It seems almost impossible for me to get back on stage. The MK either ledge hogs or gimps me, but it ledge hogs me the most.

 

[Jamwa]

Ok so heres an image of the optimal methods of recovering with PKT2 (without a DJ of course, becuase its ezpz to recover with a DJ.

In fig1, you use PKT high above, loop if around youself from infront of you, and then hit yourself on a down angle. this method is extremely tricky, because ness falls faster as time goes by, but if you can do this, you can either aim for the stage or aim for the ledge. this can be tricky to punish for people who hesitate and first and dont hit ness before it loops around.

in fig2, you want to aim straight up so you dont bounce of the ledge, but rather force a get-up from DIRTY LEDGE HOGS and peacefully float back down onto the ledge. the best part about this method is that you can delay your PKT if the opponent tries to be tricky and refreshes their invincibility frames, or you can do it early and send yourself high enough to be able to DI onto the stage. this is probs the easiest recovery.

in fig3, you dont want to aim for the ledge, rather aim so that if there is a ledge hog, you will pass the ledge (not bounce off it) and land on stage. this can be quite tricky to perfect, because you need to get the angle correct to make PKT2 pass the ledge whilst also grabbing it if it is vacant. this is probable the best way you can recover, as after you land on stage, you can DI/SDI the punishing attack and not be put in an awkward position. if you dont land on the stage, you've grabbed the ledge and you're safe anyway.

fig4 is a quicker version of fig1 that is easier to pull off, but less confusing to the opponent. you either aim for the ledge or the stage, or if you're amazing, you aim for the tip of the ledge, hold down, and bounce off the ledge but towards the stage. this confuses the hell out of the opponent and you. this recovery sort of looks like a V but less steep. its way too tricky to pull off i find, but if you're good at PKT2 then go ahead and try to master it in practise mode

for fig1 and 4, if you aim for the stage, try and get Ness to autocancel as he lands so that if someone gets greedy with the punish and waits for a grab or smash move, you can instantly spot-dodge or shield the moment you hit the ground

 

[PK Jibaku]

Thanks so much, Jamwa!

 

[-LzR-]

Hi, could someone explain "extra inch DI" when grabreleased to me? I'm curious.

 

[Jamwa]

Hi, could someone explain "extra inch DI" when grabreleased to me? I'm curious.

I cant exactly remember, but i think you hold the directional stick backwards and the c-stick up&backwards. it might not be this though.
its something like that, but i cant remember. it pretty much gets you out of range of some things that characters can do out of GR because you move back a little farther.
if you do it with lucas (since he slides far), you can avoid MK's dsmash.
on both characters you can choose to land infront of or behind DK when he cargo releases i think (maybe he has to be moving).

the bad thing about it though is of course your DI is bad if you're holding the analog stick backwards.

 

[Susi]

I think it's done by holding both sticks backwards with SLIGTHLY different angles. We can also DI in to the opponent to avoid Marths tipper dsmash/SDI Snakes ftilt behind him for example.

 

[Jamwa]

Yeah the c-stick and the analog stick cannot be in the same direction or it's just regular DI

 

[-LzR-]

I'm interested to know the mechanics behind that. How exactly does it work?

 

[BlueXenon]

Are ness' aerials safe on shield?
Does ness benefit from lack of mu knowledge from his opponents?

 

[Susi]

Are ness' aerials safe on shield?
Does ness benefit from lack of mu knowledge from his opponents?

Who doesnt benefit from it?

@LzR I believe everyone can decide if they release close or away. You actually are airborne in the beginning of GR so maybe thats the reason for movement.

 

[-LzR-]

Ness does have great airmobility so that would explain it.

 

[rurounikenshin]

Can someone please tell me how to deal with the Olimar MU? I am REALLY having trouble against him.

 

[Kokomaniac]

I think there might be plenty of olimar discussion in some past pages of the thread iirc but I could be wrong.

Generally you should try to safely get in his face and use nair a lot to throw off pikmin, your goal is to get him offstage to try to edge guard and take advantage of his poor recovery

 

[Jamwa]

Can someone please tell me how to deal with the Olimar MU? I am REALLY having trouble against him.

just be patient and wait for the oli to **** up.
also after he dgrabs u at low %, buffer a jump+airdodge to get away from his uair/fair/usmash

 

[rurounikenshin]

Ok, thanks, any advice for getting in against Olimar? I keep getting side-b/f-smashed out of the range I can hurt him.

 

[Tikao]

also uair > Olimar
i would say without Ness's uair , this MU would be a -2 MU
"just" juggle the **** out of olimar :D

 

[-LzR-]

"Ness uses Upair", "Olimar uses Whistle", "Ness attack missed"

 

[Tikao]

try to fall with him, otherwise pkt1, if you aim with the tail first, he can't whistle that, because of multi-hits, and when he is "stunned" you can hit with the head
also like that, try to fall with him sounds easier than it is
also you can try to read the whistle, even if he mashes the whistle, you "just" have to hit him between the whistles
uair is still the best move in this MU

 

[Kokomaniac]

I can dig it, I don't use uair enough anyway

 

[-LzR-]

Whistle barely has any lag, you can't just trap him in the whistle like that. And if you for some reason use PKT to juggle, then everyone except MK or Ike will just use a move to eat it and then if they won't punish you, they landed safely.
(wtf am I doing arguing here on Ness boards)

 

[Jamwa]

Whistle has the same frames as a spot dodge i think, so it's pretty spammable
also LzR, Ness' PKT can be looped around to tail whip the falling person then hit with the head during the tail stun. It's Ness' fault if the person hits it with an aerial.
Uh yeah getting in on olimar is waiting for him to screw up, because he can nullify all approaches with a shield grab/pivot grab.
What you want to do whilst you're waiting for that screw up is jumping up and down, using FH PKF and nair to hit pikmin away before they land on you.
if its on smashville try and jump on the platform whilst it is retreating and use PKT on olimar. Try and loop it on his shield so as to shield stab.

 

[-LzR-]

I don't understand how it's possible to force a tail to hit on the opponent falling without them being able to just FF aerial right through. How are you going to get the PKT upwards without exposing it for aerials?

 

[Jamwa]

I don't understand how it's possible to force a tail to hit on the opponent falling without them being able to just FF aerial right through. How are you going to get the PKT upwards without exposing it for aerials?

as they descend, you make them drop into the tail. you dont have to go up, because they have to come down... into the tail
if they airdodge, they go through the tail and hit the head
if they aerial, they hit a tail which has no hurtbox and just get stunned.

 

[-LzR-]

But PKT is too slow to do that. The tail is so small you can just airdodge or in Olis case whistle through it and then we have one dead Ness.