Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[Nido]

But the tail is so long if spaced right Olimar will get hit by another part of the tail then the head and we have one alive Ness.

 

[Jamwa]

But PKT is too slow to do that. The tail is so small you can just airdodge or in Olis case whistle through it and then we have one dead Ness.

PKT aint slow, you crazy
you can airdodge through the tail, as aforementioned, but once that airdodge is over the PKT head will hit the character.
if you whistle, you will enter hitlag, and get hit by the head once the whistle is finished anyway.

If any character other than Dedede or wolf are in the air, this is an nonpunishable maneuver.
if they are metaknight or jiggly or kirby or something that can stall/reflect/absorb like fox/lucas, they will avoid the PKT but still not be able to punish.
dedede and wofl are the exceptions because wolf falls SO FAST and he can reflect whilst falling down through the tail. dedede is just a super fast faller, so you cant chase his airdodge through the tail like any other character.

 

[Kokomaniac]

If you do it right, PKT is not risky

 

[Tikao]

pkt is just awesome and the most underrated of Ness's moves
it's fast, the tail is long (yeah don't make jokes about that) the tail has 5 (or 6?) hitboxes and the only save to avoid getting hit is to hit the head (when the pkt is spaced correctly, this doesn't happen), or reflect/absorb pkt or just (like Jamwa said) they're fastfallers (so ddd wolf )
if the head hits, they get thrown upwards by the knockback, so this is the juggling part
it's funny on the air-transformation, because they fall so slow, and when they get hit by the head, they get thrown upwards even further ... most simply don't have a chance on this transformation, when they're in this position ... like against rob xD ... just dealing 120% with that and then killing him by that
he never said "you can just fall through it" or "you can just hit the head" again

 

[-LzR-]

You are assuming you can always position the PKT perfectly to make it work, which obviously doesn't work like that because characters have more options than just falling. How do you move a PKT towards the opponent who wants to land without exposing the head?
I know it's not that simple to avoid because I have played against Ness and it indeed gets tricky sometimes, but it's not really a threat to any character who has a sexkick nair or a character like Olimar who doesn't give a **** about anything.

 

[Jamwa]

You are assuming you can always position the PKT perfectly to make it work, which obviously doesn't work like that because characters have more options than just falling. How do you move a PKT towards the opponent who wants to land without exposing the head?
I know it's not that simple to avoid because I have played against Ness and it indeed gets tricky sometimes, but it's not really a threat to any character who has a sexkick nair or a character like Olimar who doesn't give a **** about anything.

What you're implying is that the character isn't always high enough to set-up the PKT1 'trap', so to call it. If they aren't, they'll land during their airdoge (or a little after its done) and have enough time to shield the PKT and then proceed to punish Ness. Ness, though, can mixup the PKT, and loop the tail along the ground and then hit himself into the opponent whilst they are stunned by the tail. It's pretty hard to execute this, for me at least (i can never loop it right), but there's many videos of it being performed and all it takes is a hasty airdodge into the PKT tail, which induces the hitstun and then PKT2 lands before it ends.

but yeah in the situation where the opponent is not high enough, Ness can't do much except for some aerial reads, or just wing the PKT and hope it hits, or do that sexy mixup combo vid worthy PKT2.
him and Lucas' PKTs are very good edge guard tools though, and juggling is very easy at high %'s
Lucas' PKT is so op omg does like 999%

 

[-LzR-]

Can you tell me a situation where you would favor PKT instead of frametrapping them with aerials?

 

[Jamwa]

Can you tell me a situation where you would favor PKT instead of frametrapping them with aerials?

If they're high enough...
frame trapping with Ness is very awkward. there's a few ways to do it, but the slow falling speed of Ness makes it hard to bait out an airdodge and then punish the person before they fall below you.
usually it's a read Ness will aim for, like spacing an fair or jumping up, waiting for the airdodge and then punishing, or even using a FH PKF in the direction the person is falling to hit them as they land.

If you use PKT, you don't run the risk of getting read and then punished for trying to use an aerial, and it does some nice %, and even throws them back up in the air for you to maybe hit again with PKT. It's just his safest and most reliable option because it's hard to deal with. you can even hit yourself away from the opponent across the stage if they successfully dodge it.

okies sleepy now its 12am in aus

 

[-LzR-]

I see. Well it's hardly an issue for me since I have a bucket of doom, but I can see how someone like DK or MK could have some trouble dealing with that.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Yeah i get PKT2 kills fairly often from the PKT mindgamezzz

 

[infiniteV115]

So if I break a shield with Ness, what's the best punish? For damage, and for knockback?

I imagine for knockback it's either fully charged PK Flash or PKT2. For damage, I imagine it's either one of those or fully charged fsmash.

 

[Kokomaniac]

For both damage and knock back it's a fully charged pk flash every time. But if you for some reason don't have the time or the right position to set it up pkt2 is much quicker and bat is also good

 

[Tikao]

yeah, fully charged pk-flash does 36% ... and it kills at ... well don't know that xD, pretty fast anyway

 

[infiniteV115]

So fully charged PK-flash is my go-to option for shield breaks, assuming I can land it, because it's the best for both damage and knockback. Alright, thanks.

Now, if I can't land it for whatever reason, what about between fully charged bat and PKT2? I'm assuming PKT2 has higher knockback, but which does more damage?

 

[Tikao]

ok i tested it

for damage :

pk-flash 37%
fsmash 33% (if you hit with the tip of his bat)
pkt2 25%

for knockback (tested it against mario at the center of fd)

pkt2 can kill at around 30% (without DI) but you have to hit with the first hit of pkt2, so at the moment (when you hit yourself with the pk-thunder)
jump over the enemy, when you use pkt, so you'll fall while using this, if you stand justnext to him, you'll hit him with pkt
also it depends on which height you hit him
if you hit him to high, he'll fly not that low/flat
same goes, when you stand next to him
you have to find the middle way (literally)

fsmash kills at 51% (without DI) you have to hit with the tip of the bat too

fkflash kills at 52% (without DI) hmm I'm suprised by that, fsmash kills earlier xD


at the edge of fd (still against mario) fsmash kills at 27% (without DI and with the tip of the bat)

and pkt2 kills at 12% (without DI) but its not that easy to hit perfectly with that
(so this is for the right edge) jump over him stay a bit left use pkt and the moment you enter the height of the enemy, hit yourself (as flat as possible, so you don't fly up or down)
if it's the last stock of your opponent, do it like at the center of fd, he dies before you do)

 

[Kokomaniac]

Really? PK Flash doesn't kill at 40? I swear I've gotten people below 50 before with it

 

[Tikao]

tested it against mario ... lighter charakters will die earlier (like jiggz) but mario is some kind von average weight, right?
also mk should be lighter

 

[Jamwa]

PKT2 has one of the highest knockbacks in the game iirc

 

[Susi]

You can also true combo from PK Flash if the opponent has low %, I believe.

PKT isn't worth it. Bat him if he is under platforms.

 

[Jamwa]

You can also true combo from PK Flash if the opponent has low %, I believe.

PKT isn't worth it. Bat him if he is under platforms.

What do you mean PK Flash can true combo?

Also why would PKT2 not be worth it? It has much more kill potential than any of Ness' moves.

If you wanted to get % up then fast falling a dair, then quickly jumping up and Uairing the character after they bounce is probably better at low percents for percentage. Should check up on that.

also another note, you can push the opponent to the edge of the stage by releasing PK magnet next to them so you can kill at an earlier percent. You'd probably only be able to do it twice or thrice though

 

[infiniteV115]

Alright, thanks a bunch on that Tikao
I actually played a Ness ditto MM yesterday and got a shield break, went for the fully charged PKFlash and it did 38% (from 14 to 52), so I guess there were some decimal values involved.

Can you check the knockback for PKT2 by just doing a grounded one, standing close to the opponent and hitting them with the beginning of it? Does it still kill earlier than fsmash?
Also does anybody know which of these moves have the highest KBG value? PKT2 sweetspot might kill Mario earlier with no DI, but at higher %s one might have more knockback than the other and it might make a difference.

 

[Jamwa]

PKT2 definitely, it will kill so much earlier than Fsmash or PK flash. The knock back scaling is most likely better on PKT2 also.
PKT2 is stronger than Luigi's Shoryuken

 

[Susi]

Non-charged PK Flash comboes in to aerials. I've gotten kills like PK Flash to beat tornado in to uair.

PKT2 is risky to perform. You cant just stand next to your opponent. Of course you should go for it if he isnt in the % to kill with PK Flash or bat.

 

[Jamwa]

Non-charged PK Flash comboes in to aerials. I've gotten kills like PK Flash to beat tornado in to uair.

PKT2 is risky to perform. You cant just stand next to your opponent. Of course you should go for it if he isnt in the % to kill with PK Flash or bat.

didn't know PK flash combos. is it only at a certain percent?

If they're shield broken, PKT2 is easy to land...?

 

[Susi]

I have never really tried it out but it seems to be legit. Maybe the opponent just needs to stay close enough. Then non-charged would work any % and fully charged at like below 20%?

I prefer not to risk accidentally tailwhipping/hitting with the head if I can kill with bat or PK Flash.

Breaking the shield and magneting someone offstage before they touch the ground would be AWESOME xD

 

[Kokomaniac]

I have never really tried it out but it seems to be legit. Maybe the opponent just needs to stay close enough. Then non-charged would work any % and fully charged at like below 20%?

I prefer not to risk accidentally tailwhipping/hitting with the head if I can kill with bat or PK Flash.

Breaking the shield and magneting someone offstage before they touch the ground would be AWESOME xD

So I just found out what I'm gonna try to do next time I play brawl ^^^

 

[yoshi8984]

Any tips for the Sonic MU? Never played one before. =P

 

[lolreconlol]

Any videos of someone using Ness in competitive play (and winning)? Looking for some convincing.. He's another one of the many that I lost faith in over the years.

 

[Susi]

Shaky has beaten at least Trela, Denti, ESAM, MVD, Abadango and others.

FOW has Rich Brown, Tyrant, DEHF, X and others under his belt.

Cant support videos right now because I'm on mobile but you can find most of them on Youtube.

 

[Screk]

Shaky being Shaky

 

[Kokomaniac]

Shaky being Shaky

I've watched this a good 3 times

 

[Screk]

Shaky vs Leon just so we can see how bad this MU is

 

[Nido]

Game 2 was sexy as all hell, cazcombo and PKT2.

Plus he won

 

[Luco]

Game 2 was sexy as all hell, cazcombo and PKT2.

Plus he won

Marth is a weird as all heck MU, I find the more I play it. So back and forth. I noticed it when I was playing Dekar in pools and I also noticed it vs. Elton and Wave online. :o

Gonna test the PK Flash/PKT stuff.

 

[Tikao]

6:46 - 6:52 = Ness/Marf MU in a nutshell :/
and this can happen, if you don't hit with pk-fire ... daht endlag

 

[Screk]

Reason I'm linking these videos is because honestly we need don't really talk about it. Not in the social because we know how easy that can be derailed right ?

 

[Kokomaniac]

Marth vs Ness is super momentum based only problem with that is when marth gets momentum it's a stock when ness gets momentum it's 50%

 

[Luco]

I'll link you to my match with Dekar if it gets uploaded. :o

 

[Kokomaniac]

I'll link you to my match with Dekar if it gets uploaded. :o

Oh sweet. I may have mentioned this a long time ago but my friend who I play more than anyone else has always mained Marth and now plays GW (grrrr) so I think I actually have a pretty good resistance built up to total annihilation by forces created solely by Sakurai to hunt Ness players

 

[Susi]

I have never understood why GW should be so hard for Ness. Actually one of my favorite MUs.

PKT is broken vs Warios recovery. If you manage to tailwhip him out of his bike, he is dead. I have tried to put PKT in my edgeguarding lately. Tailwhips are dangerous for many characters such as Diddy and Falco.

It's unbelievable how few players know that Ness can do anything after full hop PK Fire... Everyone eats nair for trying to punish at least once.