Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[P.I.E.]

Every one of his moves is a chamber in hell made especially for ness.

 

[PK Jibaku]

Anyone got good tips for fighting a G&W?

1. Never use PK Fire in this MU, if your PK Fire hits G&W it creates a PKF Pillar and the G&W can bucket the pillar for three bars of "Oil Panic".

2. Be careful when trying to recover, you should save your double jump and use it when trying to get back on stage. Using PKT to get back up might get you killed since G&W can bucket the PKT right up...

I'm not an experienced Brawler so I can't really give out anymore tips. :/

 

[Ness 682]

Not a problem! I appreciate the feedback with what is seen.

On another note: Just today I was looking at MU with ZSS, noticing that it was a -1 for Ness. How is this?! I cannot approach ZSS for the life of me with the stun gun, or her Side B move. I just can't do it! Anyone got tips for fighting her?

 

[Screk]

The best person to get this type of info from would be Shaky since he always plays NickRiddle and teams with him.

 

[Jamwa]

Not a problem! I appreciate the feedback with what is seen.

On another note: Just today I was looking at MU with ZSS, noticing that it was a -1 for Ness. How is this?! I cannot approach ZSS for the life of me with the stun gun, or her Side B move. I just can't do it! Anyone got tips for fighting her?

SH airdodge can get you past side-b and stun gun, and once you are close to ZSS fair would be hard to deal with, since her grab isn't the best (i am unsure of the frame data of her shield grab).

you can also gimp ZSS quite effectively by tailwhipping her when she tethers the stage

its pretty even apart from her uair i believe, because she dies very early to a bthrow

 

[Luco]

@Tikao: I thought we could get a grab if the DDD tried to utilt us after Fair? Maybe i'm remembering incorrectly...

@P.I.E. : Put in the fact that you're talking about G&W and that's almost siggable.

 

[Tikao]

he can only utilt us , if we're to aggressiv , when we space it correctly , he should try to hit with a ftilt , maybe we can jump after the fair without beeing hit , but the ftilt of d³ is not that slow , so punish him could be difficult , so jumping away from him should be better ? (i'm not that sure about that , maybe the ftilt misses) , but when he forces you to jump away from him , your approach failed (but it's better to jump back than just get hit) if the ftilt hits , your approach also failed , but you also got damage , that's why approaching against d³ is that difficult

 

[Luco]

he can only utilt us , if we're to aggressiv , when we space it correctly , he should try to hit with a ftilt , maybe we can jump after the fair without beeing hit , but the ftilt of d³ is not that slow , so punish him could be difficult , so jumping away from him should be better ? (i'm not that sure about that , maybe the ftilt misses) , but when he forces you to jump away from him , your approach failed (but it's better to jump back than just get hit) if the ftilt hits , your approach also failed , but you also got damage , that's why approaching against d³ is that difficult

Yea... but can't we still grab after landing from an Fair before he does stuff because of shield pressuring?

 

[Tikao]

if I'm not mistaken, you only get the shield pressure when you're approaching aggressivly against d³ ness's fair has only awesome range , when you move back , if you move towards to d³ , his utilt should hit before you can grab , if he predicts the fastfalled fair to grab he could maybe just hit with a dtilt

I'm not that sure about that , maybe utilt and dtilt miss , when you do it correctly , but it woulb be awesome if the grab would be true , in that case , ness-d³ should be only -2 , approaching against him would be easier

 

[Luco]

Well fundly enough, I just saw the WABA vid of Shaky vs. Seibrik. Shaky was having trouble with some of Seibrik's tricks and didn't quite 'dance' around him as he might other chars. I suppose DDD carries a risk with him where you don't want to get in so close. I did notice Shaky got killed by Utilt in most cases.

 

[Nido]

I love how Tikao is using D cubed :O

 

[Luco]

I love how Tikao is using D cubed :O

But, but, differences in D cubed and D x 3... D:

 

[Nido]

I don't even care, D cubed is that awesome

 

[Luco]

I don't even care, D cubed is that awesome

Well i've seen it before but yea I suppose I can over-look the technical error.

Point is, Ness against DDD...

 

[Tikao]

f(x) = Ness-d³ -3

 

[Nido]

f(-3) = Ness/D^3

 

[Tikao]

dat Ness-d³ Mathup

 

[Nido]

We should find different mathematical expressions to represent every match up

I wish I had a computer to do it on
But my phone can't handle the intense maths

 

[Luco]

Ooh, ooh:

Ness (no. 27)/Marth (no. 7) x factors^4 divided by square root of GR probabilites to AR + probabilities to slide further away x Gimping probabilities = Ness-Marth MU. :3

 

[Nido]

(27/7) x (9/root.25) + (px25) = -3
P = -2.8992

 

[PK Jibaku]

(27/7) x (9/root.25) + (px25) = -3
P = -2.8992

I don't understand Math.

Speaking of DDD, I like to use F-air when he throws a Waddle Dee/Doo, because my F-air acts like a a protective shield from them.

If you're lucky, you can suck up a Waddle Doo's spark attack with PSi Magnet, you can recover a lot of health by doing so.

 

[Tikao]

d³ can just kick them away with his ftilt ... getting heal is difficult , if the d³ does it right
but "shielding" with fair is awesome , if you can (like d³'s waddle dees [it rhymes BAM])

 

[Luco]

I don't understand Math.

Speaking of DDD, I like to use F-air when he throws a Waddle Dee/Doo, because my F-air acts like a a protective shield from them.

If you're lucky, you can suck up a Waddle Doo's spark attack with PSi Magnet, you can recover a lot of health by doing so.

Observe PF and Coney, he's Lucas but the same principle applies and they do it really well, that made me realize I should do it in game heh. :D

 

[Nido]

Got a link for that?
/lazy

 

[Luco]

Got a link for that?
/lazy

I'll do it in the morning, i'm gonna head to bed now. I'll edit this post to do it though. As I said, in the morning *yawn* .

EDIT: Here's a link to one of the matches, do some exploring from there, because they came first in doubles.

PF () + Coney () vs. Player 1 () + Kismet ()

 

[yoshi8984]

Can Ness double jump away from Yoshi's GR>U-Smash/U-air? :o

 

[Luco]

Apparently he can avoid Usmash, not sure about Uair though. :/

EDIT: Nevermind, the Usmash/Uair works afaik. Pikabunz tested it with frame data and all.

 

[yoshi8984]

You have to kinda delay the Usmash because Ness is too high if you do it as fast as possible. The end of Ness's GR animation has him sink down a little bit, which is when Usmash can hit him.

Oh wait I just saw this lol

 

[Screk]

Delta with the knowledge

 

[Mad Duck]

Good OoS options with Ness? Nair?

 

[Nido]

Ness' OoS Nair is one the best OoS options in the game so do use it and sometimes Bair and Uair work as a mixup

 

[Susi]

Can Ness GR tailwhip PKT2 Wario on SV platforms ledge when moving the way Ness is facing? Just a thought. Could work on other characters as well but really situational.

Would test it myself but my wii is borrowed for replay recording..

And is it POSSIBLE to omnigay with PKT? I know it's nearly impossible in practice but in theory?

 

[Jamwa]

Can Ness GR tailwhip PKT2 Wario on SV platforms ledge when moving the way Ness is facing? Just a thought. Could work on other characters as well but really situational.

Would test it myself but my wii is borrowed for replay recording..

And is it POSSIBLE to omnigay with PKT? I know it's nearly impossible in practice but in theory?

first one wouldnt say so, wario can SDI
not sure what second omnigay thing is lel
this should be tested lol

 

[PK Jibaku]

Any tips on the DK MU? ._. I've faced some pretty good DK's, but I always get hit by their smashes and stupid dawnkey pawnch.

 

[Jamwa]

Any tips on the DK MU? ._. I've faced some pretty good DK's, but I always get hit by their smashes and stupid dawnkey pawnch.

you're main objective is to shield poke in this (spacing and camping), so try to play on smashville where you can fullhop-pk fire, and jump on the platform while it is retreating and try to loop pkthunder around DK's shield.

good options on DK's shield would be rising nair's (if you're in the position and trying to get away from DK, not to be used aggressively), spaced fairs, full-hop PKF. nothing else is safe really.

do not try to approach DK, his Bair and grab keep us out. conversely, he cannot approach us as we are faster and have projectiles. you will pretty much be camping in this mu to avoid his bair and GR CG. you can try to go for some reads and dash > shield grab a poorly spaced bair.

very overrated MU (as in its not + 3 DK) imo, lucas does better in this though (his PKF is easier to space with and his PKT can gimp DK/ cause 25%ish (i know it's a lot), and you can shield pressure with his multi hit aerials (nair, dair)).

 

[PK Jibaku]

you're main objective is to shield poke in this (spacing and camping), so try to play on smashville where you can fullhop-pk fire, and jump on the platform while it is retreating and try to loop pkthunder around DK's shield.

good options on DK's shield would be rising nair's (if you're in the position and trying to get away from DK, not to be used aggressively), spaced fairs, full-hop PKF. nothing else is safe really.

do not try to approach DK, his Bair and grab keep us out. conversely, he cannot approach us as we are faster and have projectiles. you will pretty much be camping in this mu to avoid his bair and GR CG. you can try to go for some reads and dash > shield grab a poorly spaced bair.

very overrated MU (as in its not + 3 DK) imo, lucas does better in this though (his PKF is easier to space with and his PKT can gimp DK/ cause 25%ish (i know it's a lot), and you can shield pressure with his multi hit aerials (nair, dair)).

Thanks! I'm in the finals for this tournament, and I'm facing this really good DK main. I really want to win this, so thanks for your help!

 

[DellSmashman]

Yeah I'd say only +2 as well. The Regrab is very unfortunate, but Ness has reasonably strong enough spacing tools to prevent it from being especially powerful ("+3 powerful"). He also has a few tools to make him think twice about going in or moving away at the wrong times.

Also, not sure if this would be the right place to ask, but why would G&W and Peach have a +2 matchup against Ness? I don't see it.

 

[Jamwa]

Yeah I'd say only +2 as well. The Regrab is very unfortunate, but Ness has reasonably strong enough spacing tools to prevent it from being especially powerful ("+3 powerful"). He also has a few tools to make him think twice about going in or moving away at the wrong times.

Also, not sure if this would be the right place to ask, but why would G&W and Peach have a +2 matchup against Ness? I don't see it.

GaW outspaces Ness SOO easily, and he can gimp us so many ways (up-b windbox to pushh us away from PKT2 and screw up recov, up-b to eat PKT head, Bucket, Fair).

also all of his moves pretty much out prioritise.


peach needs reconsidering, i thought it was +1

 

[Nido]

Peach is evil

 

[DellSmashman]

How exactly does G&W out-space Ness so easily when they have approximately the same range/disjoints among their most associated aerials/tools for spacing?

Also, the thing is, in order for those gimping capabilities to matter, G&W has to get Ness offstage, which is easier said than done, since G&W is awful at approaching most characters. Outside of offstage, I don't see how G&W would have some sort of advantage on-stage either, which is the most important thing of the matchup if it revolves around offstage gimps, especially considering the number of ways and tools Ness has to punish, space, and KO.

As for Peach, personally I'd go for potentially a 0. Ness juggles her well due to the fact that of her pitiful airdodge, meaning that she has to guess whether she should protect herself from Fair, Bair, or Uair, does a good job at keeping approaches at bay with F-air, KO's marginally early than she doesl, and potentially edge-guards her pretty well with PK Fire, PK Thunder, Fair, and Bair. With all of this combined, it is difficult to convince me that Ness even loses the matchup.