Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!

[Eagleye893]

for grab release > ?, first you might need to look into what truly is a true combo... but the best you can do to prevent something from landing like that is either shield or dodge (air or spot) if you're lucky, because a few of the true combos from a grab release on you require very strict timing. the EIDI thing has been said to not actually exist, but i don't remember what exactly was said on it, s0 g0 t0 the page on marth death grab DI on the ness forum and read that.

with some characters, try to avoid being predictable and space far enough to not get grabbed, but basically just try to not jump right into someone who you know can grab release chain/combo you. keep your distance and be safe... aka use fair retreated a lot.

 

[CRASHiC]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244852

If Lucas can do this, I think you can too.

 

[AvariceX]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244852

If Lucas can do this, I think you can too.

I don't use Lucas, but if my understanding of his zap jump is correct and that he needs to use his mid-air jump then this probably won't help us unfortunately. Throwing an item cancels Ness' mid-air jump completely.

 

[CRASHiC]

I don't use Lucas, but if my understanding of his zap jump is correct and that he needs to use his mid-air jump then this probably won't help us unfortunately. Throwing an item cancels Ness' mid-air jump completely.

Really? Hm, I see then, I'm going to go test it anyway.
EDIT- Huh, weird.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Hi all. Just visiting with a present for everybody.

Anywayz, cutting to the chase:

I was wondering if you guys could make use of this new AT with pikachu? I'm teaming with my bro (arc-thefallen-, plays Toon Link, Samus, and Ness) and am going to advance the technique. Here's the original post AND video! ^_^ enjoy!

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8104088&postcount=14

Cool thing about this move is that it allows a INSTANTANEOUS NON-FASTFALLED d-air right in the middle of it. Works for those with laggy (but epic) spike-moves with high fastfall risk.

Thanks for the time. I hope you like and laugh. Please pm me if you have any neat contributions or comments. :D

 

[AvariceX]

Link doesn't work... you copy+pasted the abbreviated link.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

updated... thanks man

 

[AvariceX]

If partner places the powershield/shield right, he/she will slide off the ledge with almost NO lag instantly after the powershield. Fun stuff ensues.... lol

Ness can actually slide off the edge already into a non-fast-falled dair by using PKFire right before running off the ledge... he yells out "PKFire" but the projectile doesn't actually come out and there's no lag so he can go right into using dair... it's risky as hell though because you have to time the PKFire within like a 2 frame window (not sure on that).

Could be useful though... Ness/Pika is already a pretty decent team

 

[xoxokev]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244852

If Lucas can do this, I think you can too.

I don't use Lucas, but if my understanding of his zap jump is correct and that he needs to use his mid-air jump then this probably won't help us unfortunately. Throwing an item cancels Ness' mid-air jump completely.

actually, sorry you're wrong, avaricex, this has been known for a while already. here is an excerpt from eb360's guide. fyi, for anyone that doesnt already know, ness' pk jump is ness' version of lucas' zap jump

Item PK Jump/PK Throw

Wow this is cool. Apparently, anything that you can double jump cancel with allows you to PK Jump. So if items DJC, items can also PK Jump! Cool!

So basically, all you need to do is the same thing for a PK Jump, only using the commands to throw the item instead of using the special. If it's a throwing item, like most items that will be present in tournaments without items (as in bananas and armor pieces), just jump and press A. If its a non throwing item, you have to press the throw button to throw it. The only time this will really ever occur in a tourny is when Peach pulls one out and lets you take it.

Fun fact, if you have a shooting item, shooting it and jumping at the same time will also make you item PK Jump! Not really useful for normal tournies since items are banned, and no character produces shooting items. But if you go to a tournament in which items are used, or in just causual matches, you can use this.

This can be used for spacing and combos of course. You can pick up a banana from Diddy, PK throw it, hit him, then combo with an aerial. Remember, you fly forward with it if you want to, so you can hit with the item, follow it, the hit again.

Also, since you dont need to hold forward to throw items, you can do still PK throws also. But like the basic PK Jump, PK throws cannot be done backwards. And since you aren't using a B move, you can't B reverse it. Also, dropping the item by pressing the throw button doesn't make you PK Throw.

 

[Uffe]

Legendary Pikachu! That was an awesome video! O:

 

[RoyTheFlamboyant]

Sweet vid, fellow NCer! Situational, but raw nonetheless.

And this is just a quick question. Do we actually have anyone here that knows the Zelda match-up? Because I got ****ing RAILED at a low tier yesterday against a Zelda. It was ********, her fair/bair like... outranged retreated fairs. I was very sad, haha.

I never played against a Zelda, and it was in teams, so it wasn't a very good gauge of how the match-up is, but I feel like I could probably have some trouble with it. Can anyone just throw some info up about it? I couldn't really find anything about it. It'd be super helpful.

 

[Uffe]

Sweet vid, fellow NCer! Situational, but raw nonetheless.

And this is just a quick question. Do we actually have anyone here that knows the Zelda match-up? Because I got ****ing RAILED at a low tier yesterday against a Zelda. It was ********, her fair/bair like... outranged retreated fairs. I was very sad, haha.

I never played against a Zelda, and it was in teams, so it wasn't a very good gauge of how the match-up is, but I feel like I could probably have some trouble with it. Can anyone just throw some info up about it? I couldn't really find anything about it. It'd be super helpful.

That's where you went wrong. But yeah, I've fought some pretty scary Zelda's that did that. One of them was CakeIsEasy. Is that all the Zelda was doing? I can try and throw you some tips later.

 

[RoyTheFlamboyant]

Zelda in teams is essentially a big pile of fairs/bairs. At least in Melee she was, and it seems to carry over. She can also utilize her ftilit and dsmash pretty well still. That's mostly what I was seeing, along with a bit of nair.

Yeah, no one around here (within a three hour drive) PLAYS Zelda that is any good and would know how she works, and the only reason this particular person did was because it was low tier (but I know he plays her a bit in Brawl).

He shut down my approach on all ends and all I could do was stay grounded and wait for him to approach from the air and then punish with nair out of shield for a few hits. Very frustrating. :/

 

[Eagleye893]

i played a good zelda several times at one PnT... i had a ton of trouble with him, who played zelda, but i've got a REALLY good idea of how zelda works.

dtilt = SDI Out QUICKLY!!! THEN EXPECT A DSMASH!!! basically, get ****d. i hate dtilt and was having a very difficult time getting close, you know how to di, and the dtilt changing to dsmash is so unexpected and rarely can i change my di in time.
great aerials = outrange and punish is all i can say. retreat fair all the time basically and shield or airdodge when you see or expect a fair/bair/dair/uair, because you should be able to punish them pretty well, or just evade them and continue. basically know where the sweetspots are and try not to get in a spot where you will get owned by the attacks if you mess up.
multi-hitting/quick smashes= shield, keep out of range and pkfire, SDI like crazy. the usual stuff.
grab: spotdodge, and plenty to punish. i've heard her cooldown time for grabbing is really long.... correct me if im wrong.
dins fire: absorb that.... psi magnet ftw!
nayrus love... (b): dont go running expecting a followup from pkfire. take an unexpected path, or switch it up as much as possible. doing the same thing will allow her to just use dins fire and get some damage on you.
farore's wind... (upb?): ..... punishable, if you know where they are going... for me it's easy to predict, but don't expect to get them every time. expect to be hit by it when going to punish, so make sure you are raedy and far enough away to not get hit, or able to shield.

theres more, but thas what i got.

this may be a defensive MU for ness, cause zelda is good on luring you in and getting hits.

 

[Cheeseonastick]

The zelda match up is hilarious in my opinion. Zelda is unbelievably god awful at approaching. That's why they all spam din's fire to make their opponent approach. You can magnet Din's Fire. You can spam pk fire/thunder. Zelda can reflect this, but her abilities at doing so are limited (ie cooldown in between nayrus loves). Zelda has to approach. You win.

Seriously, 9/10 times they'll switch to Sheik anyways xD.

 

[1337-Zero]

I never played against a Zelda

I had your same problem, I got killed by this one Zelda until I realized I didn't need to approach. Here's what I realized (some of this stuff may not work because it was on wifi, no lag though)

1. If she ever uses U-smash it's a free grab, d-tilt spam, or jab combo if you SDI down (The smash seems to move up and down, if you SDI at the lowest point you touch the ground. You don't have to tech).

2. You can't use PKT when you're far away, and you can't use it when you are close. Find a distance in the middle and use PKT there every once in while. Vary the distance slightly so the Zelda wont predict it.

3. Her D-tilt spikes (That...I didn't know before. And it's dang powerful)

4. UpB is much harder to punish than it seems. Zelda can go half distance if she knows how, so don't freak if you fail to punish it.

5. A good Zelda will not miss the sweetspot of the fair, bair, or dair. These sweetspots seem hard to use, but they're actually quite easy to land.

 

[CarVac]

I have a friend that plays Zelda, and (when he's on his game) never misses Lightning kicks. The key is that you do not need to approach. Zelda is all punishment. If you approach with fair, she'll lightning kick. If you approach above, she'll upsmash, uptilt, or upair. All bad. On the ground Nayru's Love is really long-ranged. But, she can do little to approach (except maybe teleporting into you) since we have our aerials too.

 

[Neon Ness]

Successor of Raphael here on SWF plays Zelda... he's in the Ness Xat sometimes since he seconds Ness. He's really good. X_X RoyTheFlamboyant, you oughta play him sometime if you see him in there. If you don't mind online play.

Zelda's aerial game is disgusting when used correctly, lightning kicks all over the place. To be honest this is a matchup I would rather avoid, and fortunately I only know of one person at our university that uses her.

 

[1337-Zero]

SoR was the Zelda I played against. Mad good Zelda, I managed to win a few near the end, but that was it.

 

[Uffe]

Your PSI Magnet would be useful if Zelda is going to spam from a distance. Otherwise you don't actually need to approach. But if neither of you get close, then someone might as well. I can't exactly recall if her fair/bair goes through Ness' fair. You might want to ask Successor of Raphael about that. I thought that if she got you from under your fair, then you'd get hit, even if retreating.

For your PK, you can still use PK Fire, chances are you'll be able to use that. If you can get her off stage, use PK Thunder. Her recover should be predictable, but it takes a little effort to know where she'll land. If you're lucky and you get her below the stage, you can go for an edge guard or maybe even use PK Flash, but that's very situational, maybe. If you're going to approach, Zelda might use her Din's Fire against you and you'll have to time when to block or dodge.

Her smash attacks are really difficult to escape and I'm not even sure how you do this. It's like regular DI doesn't work. I can't say I've ever smash DI'd out of her smash attacks, so who knows? For her f-smash, I do recall seeing a video where you can tilt your analog I think in a half circle to get out of her f-smash. It's up > side > down, away from the smash of course, but I haven't tested this myself.

Ness' aerials beat out Zelda's. She'll most likely go for an uair if you're both in the air and you're above her. Don't attack from above, either, unless you know for a fact that you will strike her, otherwise you may be blocked or u-smashed by her.

One more thing. If you use PK Fire on her, she'll either stay and use Nayru's Love or DI out of it. If she uses Nayru's Love, you can jump in the fire pillar and use your PSI Magnet and lag cancel out of it, though that's pretty risky.

 

[CarVac]

Upsmash is easy to SDI down. Just smash both sticks downwards like mad. You hit the ground (no need to tech) and can counterattack. Not nearly as easy, though, as DIing out of Pikachu's downsmash. Fsmash I don't have experience getting out of.

 

[1337-Zero]

For your PK, you can still use PK Fire, chances are you'll be able to use that. If you can get her off stage, use PK Thunder. Her recover should be predictable, but it takes a little effort to know where she'll land. If you're lucky and you get her below the stage, you can go for an edge guard or maybe even use PK Flash, but that's very situational, maybe. If you're going to approach, Zelda might use her Din's Fire against you and you'll have to time when to block or dodge.

I know that PKT works onstage at the right distance. SoR told me when we were done that I used PKT better than any other Ness he fought because I didn't use it from far away, but I didn't use it up close either (From what I remember, it ALWAYS hit him). Of course, it was on wifi, but that shouldn't matter to much anyway. Never thought to use it to gimp though (brain dead/ pressured to the extreme when fighting SoR's Zelda)

Good, CarVac backs me up on the usmash thing. I actually use the Wii/Chuck, and it's still easy. Even without the C-stick.

F-Smash I'm pretty sure you SDI away. All my other attempts failed from what I remember, SoR needs to come here and clear things up (or any good Zelda for that matter).

 

[FireKirby7]

F-Smash I'm pretty sure you SDI away. All my other attempts failed from what I remember, SoR needs to come here and clear things up (or any good Zelda for that matter).

Zelda's fsmash, SDI up. I remember watching a whole video about it because Zelda annoys people so much.

.....Don't quote me on that.

 

[RoyTheFlamboyant]

Holy crap, guys. Thanks a loooooot. Read it all, committing to memory, and finding some Zeldas to fight against! I'll keep an eye out for SoR- I don't have a Wii, but I'm sure my friend wouldn't mind if I used his.

And, if I recall, Zelda's fairs can hit from beneath retreated fairs because I was getting RAILED. It was extremely difficult not to approach because it was during teams, ugh.

Don't approach and SDI the planet. Got it, haha.

 

[1337-Zero]

Zelda's fsmash, SDI up. I remember watching a whole video about it because Zelda annoys people so much.

.....Don't quote me on that.

Hmm, maybe I should've jumped afterwards then. I kept falling back into the smash XD.

 

[Ref]

If you guys didn't know, Ness is the heaviest character in the game.

 

[mib004]

how do u DI out of meta knights when he just keep grab releasing ness

 

[Ref]

You can't you just need to learn the timing to jump break his pummel...

 

[Ghnaschnakoff]

Ok so, I'm off to a tourney this weekend with my new and improved Ness. I was wondering if there is a sure fire way to get dtilt trip > fsmash working. I was testing it and it seemed that it was just a chance to trip rather than just a matter of percentage or spacing. Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

[Levitas]

it is a probability, though certain factors will make things more likely to trip.

iirc, weight, moves like dtilt, and hitting the opponents' legs will increase the likelyhood.

But it is chance.

 

[Cacti]

There is a way, you mash dtilt until they trip, and have good enough reactions to stop and fsmash. It's actually rather good for KOing, as your opponent usually doesn't expect it.

 

[AvariceX]

it is a probability, though certain factors will make things more likely to trip.

iirc, weight, moves like dtilt, and hitting the opponents' legs will increase the likelyhood.

But it is chance.

Actually this is untrue. It was proven recently that dtilt in fact has a (very, very small) sweetspot that always trips.

I still think it's not getting nearly enough attention. It's extremely hard to space granted, but it's a move that hits on frame 3 and leads to a guaranteed fsmash.

 

[thesage]

It has little to no range though.

 

[K.K_Slider]

Neither is grabbing in some 2d fighters but people learn how to do it.

 

[thesage]

Because it's also not safe on hit unless they trip?

Also, no 2nd hitbox of the d-tilt exists. It's only one hitbox. I know that from brawl+ hacking.

 

[TKD]

Does every Ness player know about buffering fairs from their short-hops? It gives Ness the ability to avoid being grabbed. Also, I have a list that makes Ness bottom tier. Do you think he was just underrated in the list, or does most of the cast have grab release stuff on him or something?

I can't really see how Ness is horrendously terrible because he can SH fair into air-jump Fair which is safe on tall characters. Also, does Donkey's infinite give him such a big advantage (I listed the match-up as 2/8)? I think Ness can avoid being grabbed very well...

So...
- Do most characters have follow-ups vs Ness on grab release?
- Does everyone know about buffer SH fair into an air-jump

 

[xoxokev]

So...
- Do most characters have follow-ups vs Ness on grab release?
- Does everyone know about buffer SH fair into an air-jump

-anyone that has a decent ranged attack that hits in 10 frames or less
-i'm sure not EVERYONE does, but i'm sure ness mains that have been playing this game for a while do know

 

[thesage]

Most character's do have a follow up on grounded grab releases, but it's the same thing as having a throw that combos to me =/

air jump? You mean double jump? That's been known for some time. In fact you can even do 2 aerials in one sh.

I thought DK's infinite didn't work.

 

[Robin1613]

im having trouble with fox, my opponent excells at putting pressure on my ness with his utilt to dair grab combo. when i di out of it i still get grabbed or usmashed to death. help?

 

[AvariceX]

I thought DK's infinite didn't work.

It works, but it's frame perfect. If they mess up you can get a jab or dtilt in between. The jab or dtilt though will usually hit like 1 frame before they grab you, meaning they're still going to grab you because of grab armor... it just allows you to do some damage in between the grabs, and once DK is high enough the jab will push him far enough away that the grab will miss...I remember mashing this like mad against a DK in tourney a couple months ago XD