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Ness Question and Answer Thread, Ask Ness questions Here!
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The people who think of Ness either think a bit too high or a bit too low.
Anything someone decent or moderately good does as Ness is regarded as a fault in the playing of the match up or a complete streak of luck.
There is only one consistent Ness player and that's smash64, who gets discredited quite a bit because he's midwest.
Some players are naturally good against another.
Anything someone decent or moderately good does as Ness is regarded as a fault in the playing of the match up or a complete streak of luck.
There is only one consistent Ness player and that's smash64, who gets discredited quite a bit because he's midwest.
Some players are naturally good against another.
thesage
Smash Hero
Can Ness really be considered mid tier after his matchup with Falco and Marth so terrible and Snake being bad?
Except tiers and match ups aren't the same. And Falco? Really? He's not that bad.
thesage
Smash Hero
Fow vs. Sk92...
Eagleye893
Smash Champion
this thread exploded when i was at work....
okay, I agree with high C tier.... that is sensible....
can we also include how ness mains can have an overall variation in their playstyle rather than mostly just aerial based (ie: my ness and spamming psi magnet effectively.... when I'm on my game) which helps to contribute to the mindgames? you can be mister aerial spam one minute and the next when you are ahead, mister slightly campy with psi magnet to push people just enough to not get hit but hit back with either nair or fair and follow up... then go completely on ground and use the grabs and yoyos and tilts the next few seconds and have everyone be like "WTF IS THIS GUY DOING?!?!? I CAN'T READ ANYTHING HE DOES!!" Most higher tier characters are bound to a near specific playstyle (snake, marth, MK, D3, Falco (to an extent), ZSS, Diddy, ICs, etc.) in order to do well and can be almost expected to act in some specific way... ness can do well with everything and is truly well rounded, minus few slower attacks and lesser priorities... other lower tier characters have the advantage of being able to switch it up several different ways, but not very many of their attacks are "good." I was trying to say something but completely forgot what i was getting at... oh well!
Ness for S tier!!!
And Fow vs SK92.... well, the real answer is don't get grabbed, and since SK92 knows how fow plays, he was able to grab him and kill him easily... once past a certain percent, Falco has difficulty killing and you can absorb his spamming lasers, magnet cancel, attack back. etc... eventually you get a slightly upper hand by having more damage than the falco... but you have to be more careful, which is why i like the falco matchup.... i can use psi magnet and stay just above where falco is (vertically) to avoid the phantasm.... and it's easy to know what a falco is going to do next.... (reflecting back to easy to read and common playstyle for high tier characters)
okay, I agree with high C tier.... that is sensible....
can we also include how ness mains can have an overall variation in their playstyle rather than mostly just aerial based (ie: my ness and spamming psi magnet effectively.... when I'm on my game) which helps to contribute to the mindgames? you can be mister aerial spam one minute and the next when you are ahead, mister slightly campy with psi magnet to push people just enough to not get hit but hit back with either nair or fair and follow up... then go completely on ground and use the grabs and yoyos and tilts the next few seconds and have everyone be like "WTF IS THIS GUY DOING?!?!? I CAN'T READ ANYTHING HE DOES!!" Most higher tier characters are bound to a near specific playstyle (snake, marth, MK, D3, Falco (to an extent), ZSS, Diddy, ICs, etc.) in order to do well and can be almost expected to act in some specific way... ness can do well with everything and is truly well rounded, minus few slower attacks and lesser priorities... other lower tier characters have the advantage of being able to switch it up several different ways, but not very many of their attacks are "good." I was trying to say something but completely forgot what i was getting at... oh well!
Ness for S tier!!!
And Fow vs SK92.... well, the real answer is don't get grabbed, and since SK92 knows how fow plays, he was able to grab him and kill him easily... once past a certain percent, Falco has difficulty killing and you can absorb his spamming lasers, magnet cancel, attack back. etc... eventually you get a slightly upper hand by having more damage than the falco... but you have to be more careful, which is why i like the falco matchup.... i can use psi magnet and stay just above where falco is (vertically) to avoid the phantasm.... and it's easy to know what a falco is going to do next.... (reflecting back to easy to read and common playstyle for high tier characters)
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Is Ness really that good? I agree he's lower than where he should be, but that's quite a large jump. O.o
Is it that there are just so few Ness mains repping him well that there's not enough evidence to support his high ranking? I just don't feel his tools are good enough to stand up to everything other characters can throw at him. He can use both his air and ground game, though I feel his ground game is dwarfed by other character's.
Here's an unrelated question: How should I play against Luigi with Ness? My Yoshi is getting beat pretty badly and my Ness did better, though I'm still struggling a lot. Can I get some tips?
Is it that there are just so few Ness mains repping him well that there's not enough evidence to support his high ranking? I just don't feel his tools are good enough to stand up to everything other characters can throw at him. He can use both his air and ground game, though I feel his ground game is dwarfed by other character's.
Here's an unrelated question: How should I play against Luigi with Ness? My Yoshi is getting beat pretty badly and my Ness did better, though I'm still struggling a lot. Can I get some tips?
I don't think there are much Ness mains repping him, like you said. I mean we've all seen what he can do and people still don't think he's that good. As for Ness vs Luigi, it's a 50:50 match up, I believe. That's one less than what Mario is. The thing about Luigi [and Mario], they're good at racking up damage quickly because they can actually combo you in this game, believe it or not.
My question to you is, what is this Luigi doing that makes it difficult?
My question to you is, what is this Luigi doing that makes it difficult?
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
It's pretty much his Cyclone. I have a lot of trouble beating/avoiding it, especially since he does it to cover his aerial wall if I'm trying to get in. Other than that, I keep getting combo/juggled a lot, though once I'm out of those percents I manage to live for a while (My record with Yoshi was 190% before getting bair'd to my death).
I also have a lot of problems just landing the kill in general. If I get lucky with a grab at the right percents I'll bthrow, but most of them I'm stuck attempting to gimp him, or I manage to get a Bair in after suffering a lot of damage. =/
I also have a lot of problems just landing the kill in general. If I get lucky with a grab at the right percents I'll bthrow, but most of them I'm stuck attempting to gimp him, or I manage to get a Bair in after suffering a lot of damage. =/
His Cyclone really shouldn't be much of a problem. If he uses it constantly, then you'll need to predict it and then punish it. I don't believe his Cyclone has more power over Ness' fair. Nair also might work. If he juggles you, try and DI either left or right, upward and away. That should help you out. You can also nair him when he does this, but it's a lot riskier because it doesn't always work and you'll probably take more damage than you should have.
Anyway, for Ness' aerials, you can pull off multiple attacks as shown in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3myya7rcfO0 You don't need to change your controls, and you don't need to rely on all of that alone. But if you're only really having trouble with both his Cyclone and juggling, see if what I suggested works for you. I tend to have a hard time with Luigi as well, but I manage to win most of the time. Your aerials should be a lot better than his.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Alright, I figured I was doing something wrong. I knew about the Double Aerial Shuffle already, I've been working on using some of it, but Ness is my secondary so I don't put as much practice into him. =P
Levitas
the moon
nobody else remembers how weird M2K's opinions tend to be?
I still think ness is bad, but I'm nobody. I've just been around a while and know a few things.
I still think ness is bad, but I'm nobody. I've just been around a while and know a few things.
AvariceX
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2007
- Messages
- 2,116
- Location
- London, Ontario, Canada
- NNID
- AvariceX
- 3DS FC
- 1177-8001-5699
He might have changed his opinions since, but he has (somewhat) recently said that Sheik is the best character in Melee (which is believable, but certainly not the common consensus), and that Squirtle is better than Snake (which is o_O).
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
PKF is good for ground spacing and setting up for combos. The ATs help boost it's usability. It can set up for a spike offstage and can punish people who hang on the edge too long. Basically, it's useful, but it can be punishable, so don't spam it.
I'm sure someone more adept with Ness will come and elaborate on PKF for me. ^_^''
I'm sure someone more adept with Ness will come and elaborate on PKF for me. ^_^''
thesage
Smash Hero
pk fire is terrible since it can be di'd out of on the first hit and then Ness gets punished for landing the move.
Useful for situational edgeguards though.
Useful for situational edgeguards though.
PK Fire isn't useless. It does go pretty far and if you don't use it often, chances are you can get your opponent in it. Try using it in different ways and not just on the ground. Use it in the air, use it after bair, use it everywhere! Just don't spam it to the point people see it coming, you hear?
thesage
Smash Hero
They can di out of the aerial one too though.. Also the aerial one is really easy to see coming and punish.
Chances are they won't see it coming if you're not that close to them. By impulse, a player will shield or spot dodge when close. As for punishment, you can lag cancel aerial PK Fire.
PMKNG
Smash Ace
i dont use aerial pkfire, too much work. But I agree pkfire isnt that good..
I mainly use it for scare tactics if the opponent is far enough or to stall for a few seconds (predictable spot dodges/power shields) but it really isnt that great of a move.
I mainly use it for scare tactics if the opponent is far enough or to stall for a few seconds (predictable spot dodges/power shields) but it really isnt that great of a move.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
And how exactly would you DI out of it? If it hurts, it gives the possibility of some awesome damage.
thesage
Smash Hero
I dunno how people di it all I know is that they di the intial hit so that the pillar doesn't connect on them at all. Ally does this a lot vs. Avaricex.
Firebound is a pretty cool found technique, but not necessary and it's somewhat difficult to aim. PK Jump can be useful but you may or may not get punished for it.
Tiersr4Queers
Smash Apprentice
im really bad at the timing of using psi magnet 
Yeah i was playing for awhile last night with some friends and was testing it out a bit and i was very successful with doing off stage into a spike i thinks thats called pillar spiking?? but idk i couldnt really get it to be useful on stage but i havent been convinced yet lol
Use it like Fox's Shine. Just don't always do it or it'll become predictable just like Fox's Shine.im really bad at the timing of using psi magnet
milesg2g
Smash Champion
Do you use PSI magnet like that too? lolUse it like Fox's Shine. Just don't always do it or it'll become predictable just like Fox's Shine.
I do it sometimes but It can be punishable if you aren't good with spacing
Sometimes I'll act like I'm coming down with a down aerial, they'll either block or spot dodge and by that time I'll already have my PSI Magnet up for about a millisecond and then use a different attack. But I use it for more things than just that.
Eagleye893
Smash Champion
Psimag has many more uses than one can imagine... Good use of moving a little bit from side to side and halting some vertical movement, absorbing (will get 100% of the time with knowledge of how it works), psi magnet shove will make those with shorter range miss and you get some followup, and epic ledge maneuvers. If you can time perfectly, you will be able to shove someone in helpless falling state away from grabbing the ledge and grab the ledge before your opponent, causin epic gimp. I have yet to do this but in theory it will work on everyone really well. Watching me play when I'm on my game is the best example of how to use psi magnet, but not ness overall, because I will make many mistakes.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Eagle, I have to say, when we played, I loved your use of PSIM. It really did cause me to miss some of my attacks. @_@ I think you'll find a really epic use for it sometime. =P
Eagleye893
Smash Champion
Thanks... Although I played poorly overall, that is one thing that will always stay consistent, weirdly enough. I kept jumping right into dair spikes and other idiotic things... Oh well! I just like trying to make something my own, and that's one way of doing it.
Eagleye893
Smash Champion
Yes... That's what I thought, but I didn't want to assume (you know what happens when you assume?) ... What should I use as a random bump? It has to have meaning...
Love is a word that is used far beyond it's original meaning... Although some still love in the original sense. But how must one know what is true? What has meaning, and what is illusive?
Love is a word that is used far beyond it's original meaning... Although some still love in the original sense. But how must one know what is true? What has meaning, and what is illusive?
Eagleye893
Smash Champion
Bat, perfect shield, Psi magnet, slowly moving closer.
Bat the slow enough projectiles, perfect shield the ones that are quick so you can charge forward as soon as you do so, and psi magnet spam people who have energy projectiles... Falco will most likely phantasm if you spam psimag, so you have to learn to psimag lag cancel, but that's not difficult. Approach safely, then attack similarly. Once you are close, you are good... Except snake. Snake is annoying. You have to be extra careful against him. Usmash whilst running towards him, or jump cancel usmash oos.
I almost forgot! Nair-ing well will give you a clank or outprioritise to the oncoming projectile in some cases (sometimes samus' missiles, arrows, pikmin, boomerang, other non-energy attacks). Just safely and somewhat quickly approach.
Bat the slow enough projectiles, perfect shield the ones that are quick so you can charge forward as soon as you do so, and psi magnet spam people who have energy projectiles... Falco will most likely phantasm if you spam psimag, so you have to learn to psimag lag cancel, but that's not difficult. Approach safely, then attack similarly. Once you are close, you are good... Except snake. Snake is annoying. You have to be extra careful against him. Usmash whilst running towards him, or jump cancel usmash oos.
I almost forgot! Nair-ing well will give you a clank or outprioritise to the oncoming projectile in some cases (sometimes samus' missiles, arrows, pikmin, boomerang, other non-energy attacks). Just safely and somewhat quickly approach.