Natural Talent

[Kal]

Idk, that way of thinking would make any accomplishment feel alot more shallow to me. If we were talking about me specificially, then sure it would be nice. But thinking that anyone could do anything, makes all accomplishments meaningless and unimpressive to me.

Fortunately I agree with the rest of your post

Well, I wouldn't go that far. In fact, quite the opposite: if you're only capable of doing something by chance (i.e., because of genetics), then you really shouldn't feel accomplished. Only if it is possible through effort should you feel accomplished, in my opinion.

Of course, this leads me to dismiss nationalism and ethnic pride. >_>

 

[stelzig]

I didn't exclude effort though. And it isn't only about my own accomplishments, but also about how I look at other people's accomplishments.

Edit: I don't think it is uncommon to use it as an excuse either. I have seen people dismiss others exactly by saying "I could do that too if I wanted to/tried/put in the effort/hours" plenty of times. Which is basically a "/not impressed" comment. One could argue that this is exactly what m2k is doing now (one among other excuses - look at the other 50%), and is what made him lose his motivation to prove himself in the first place - why put in the effort when he can just tell people that he would still be the best if he wanted to?

Edit2: This train of thought isn't only disprespecting people who do accomplish something and maybe even become the best, but also the ones who actually do put in alot of effort without ever getting as far as someone else, telling him that he just isn't trying hard enough. It can be motivational in some cases (and if the person really has the potential and didn't work very hard), but it can also be a real kick in the face. To be told that you aren't trying when you really are, is one of the worst feelings in the world imo.

 

[Beat!]

^That post I agree with completely.

Ninja'd. I meant Kal's post >_>

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

yea im surprised most everyone skipped it i pretty much told you what the actual truth is

they where busy reading my posts.

 

[Kal]

I agree, Stelzig. The converse, however, to insulting unsuccessful people by suggesting that they don't try hard enough, is insulting successful people by attributing their success to genetics (i.e., luck). It's a fine line; you certainly need to work hard, but working hard alone is no guarantee for success.

 

[stelzig]

I suppose. Any kind of excuse like that is naturally annoying. I just think it's ridicilous and extremely demotivational to simply assume that you can overcome any obstacle or challenge if you try hard enough. I'm not really testing or challenging myself anymore at that point. I'm not tapping into my own potential anymore, but just into the universal potential that everyone appearently has - alot less interesting imo.

But yeah... I just don't think it's a nice(r) or comforting thought that everyone is the same and all you need to do something better than someone else, is to work more than they did.

 

[Kal]

People don't want to accept the reality for a variety of reasons (varying situationally). I recall reading a study suggesting that more intelligent people tend to give more credence to the idea that everyone can achieve what they have achieved, likely because their intelligence leads them to realize that they are not so special. Said study also suggests that less intelligent people do quite the opposite: not having any real understanding of things, they give themselves more credit than they deserve, and think themselves special such that others cannot reach the same accomplishments.

I place M2K in the former category. He has achieved personal success (a single instance of success against hundreds, if not thousands, of failures), and so he assumes it must be plausible for everyone to do so in the same way. But, in reality, it's a little absurd to suggest that, out of every single player out there, only a select few are truly motivated and truly train hard enough. While I'm sure there are players who are undeserving of being great, if dedication were what created masters, we'd have a lot more of them.

I just don't think it's a nice(r) or comforting thought that everyone is the same and all you need to do something better than someone else, is to work more than they did.

It's just more comforting in the sense that no one is intrinsically able to accomplish more than you. To each his own, but most people would find this comforting to be true. And, to clarify, you're really mischaracterizing the notion. It's not that everyone is the same, or that "more work = more success." It's that, with enough work, you will eventually reach the highest level of success, irrespective of who you are.

 

[Beat!]

Talent (or the lack thereof), if anything, is what's being used as an excuse.

 

[Kal]

In many cases, it's a legitimate excuse. However, actually identifying it as a legitimate excuse is not very easy. In 2003, attributing Ken's success to his natural talent would have been silly. However, considering that he dominated the game for six straight years, it's not outrageous to do so now.

M2K is absolutely right in this regard; you should not try and limit yourself by your "natural talent." If it turns out that you can, in fact, progress further in skill, then refusing to do so because "you aren't talented enough" will only prevent that.

 

[stelzig]

You could also say that those so-called "intelligent" people, just lack empathy and are unable to put themselves in other people's shoes.

As for the mischaracterizing thing. Fine, let's put it that way then. It still makes people unable to reach the same level as someone else, unless they both have plateu'd. Assuming that someone doesn't suddenly gain a massive boost through some sort of epiphany (which I think is entirely possible)

Beat: It can be as well, but it isn't neccesarily. Unlike going into something with the expectation that I (and anyone else) can or cannot do it, I go in unknowingly and try to push myself. It's a neverending project and you will never know if you are unable to reach a higher level than a person better than you before you actually do it. All you can do is keep pushing and not taking things for granted. I feel like comparing this to religion and wanting to jump to conclusions and wanting to know, but on the other hand I don't want to go into that discussion either, lol... But now I mentioned it, I guess - Please let's not derail this into a religion debate, haha.

 

[Kal]

Stelzig, I agree that your mindset is a good way to handle things. I think we should turn this thread into a debate on Mormonism.

 

[JPOBS]

Yeah controller is an issue but the MAIN thing that changed in me was motivation. That's the key element that has been deteriorating as time went on, especially after people started caring less. When I was working to the best, I just wanted to show everyone how good I was, and as I got older I started to care less and my skill dropped as my motivation and effort lessened. Ever since I got banned from mlg dallas (my true prime) I have just changed for the worse in every single way and every element of my life went downhill, I've been just an emo kid that wasted a year and a half on his life, lacking confidence to do anything and the situation I have with my ex-gf katie made it even worse (cheated on me 5 times, stole 1,000 dollars from me, among other things, which I all found out later on, despite me doing nothing except being a really good person). I'm not the machine I used to be, and the factors are 1) lack of effort/motivation (MAIN FACTOR) 2) controller (another really big factor, probably just as important as the first factor tbh, but not the point here) 3) my change in my overall happiness with myself and my life (3rd factor but not as big as the other 2). That's the full truth. My lack of confidence in myself is a personal issue I've had I believe due to always questioning myself and the truth in things many times and not being socially interactive with other humans throughout all of elementary, middle, and high school. That's what I think makes the most sense to be the main reasons.

The Good Doctor, mango told me for a long time he thinks he counters me and that I choke a lot and should place a lot higher than I do. I feel like if I was more experienced vs puff I would have done better. The 2 MUs I struggled with the most were (and probably still are) puff and falco. Mango happens to main both of them. I've gotten strong in MUs I had the most experience in (because of cactuar/lord knight), such as Marth/Fox. Some of it may be due to natural style, but a lot of my habits probably came from doing those MUs a lot, so I could get good habits for some MUs but when those habits carry over for other MUs it does not go as well. I still feel like my prime in brawl was the best the game was ever played and my prime in melee could give any player today a good run for their money, but I'm not motivated enough due to a number of factors in my life, which mostly comes down to motivation. The way I see it, motivation leads to effort, and effort leads to improvement, which leads to success. Even if this is only 50% of the reason, that's still a pretty big factor. I think controller and various other things could be the other 50%.

THEN GET OFF YOUR A**, BUY A NEW CONTROLLER, AND BECOME THAT COLD HEARTED, DARTH MAUL, TERMINATOR, ENDER WIGGIN, BRAVEHEART, KING OF THE MEWS MOTHER ****ER THAT YOU CAN BE FFS!!!!

DIDN'T YOU READ JESIAH'S THREAD? NOOOOO JOHNS N***A!!!!!

caps city b***h.

 

[Beat!]

@Kal

In many cases, it's a legitimate excuse.

I really don't think it is. I mean, maybe it would be ultimately, but 99% of those who use that as an excuse are people who never actually went all the way, who tried for a bit but then gave up halfway through because they decided that they weren't "meant" to be as good as the top players.

@stelzig
"can be an excuse, but isn't necessarily". I'd say the exact same thing applies to hard work, so I'm not sure why you even brought up this quote:

"I could do that too if I wanted to/tried/put in the effort/hours"

Yes, there are people who say such things, but needless to say, they are ****ing MORONS. It's very easy to claim that you could do something if you worked hard enough, but an entirely different thing to actually DO it.



I'd like to point out that for the most part, the top players in a lot of popular sports (like football) are players who were considered average/mediocre when they were younger. But guess what, they didn't give up, and eventually they became better than the players that were considered better and more talented during their entire youth, because they were more determined and worked harder.

 

[stelzig]

Yes, there are people who say such things, but needless to say, they are ****ing MORONS. It's very easy to claim that you could do something if you worked hard enough, but an entirely different thing to actually DO it.

It's not even important if they say it or not. I completely agree with them, if they believe that everyone has the same potential. This is unlike what i'm saying where it can be used as an excuse, but then you are (once again) assuming that you can actually jump to a conclusion. I just told you that you cannot.

Kal: It's especially a good way because it deals with reality rather than some imaginary scenario that you created. Though I suppose that placebo effect can also help people who lack confidence.

Edit: The absolutely only demotivational thing I can see about what i'm saying, is the fact that you have to deal with the reality that all your hard work may have been (pretty much) in vain. But you already have to do that anyway - every single time you enter a tournament/test and once again end up not getting out of pools or with average grades, despite having worked 24/7 must suck, if you believe that you should become better than that guy who doesn't even have a gamecube or didn't do his homework.

^Kal: I know i'm somewhat adding that people also improve at the same rate here, and that it is perfectly possible to fit this in with believing that you are just slow at improving or that you didn't work the right way or whatever (which is independant of either way of thinking). I think it's somewhat of a dangerous path though, since especially the second excuse can end up leading you in the wrong direction if you are wrong and just using it as an excuse.

 

[Beat!]

It's not even important if they say it or not. I completely agree with them, if they believe that everyone has the same potential.

Again,

It's very easy to claim that you could do something if you worked hard enough, but an entirely different thing to actually DO it.

I think you're underestimating what "hard work" actually means. We're talking ridiculous amounts of discipline, putting other interests aside, getting past mental block after mental block, etc. And it has to be practice with purpose as well. Practicing one single aspect over and over again for thousands of hours won't do, of course.

 

[JPOBS]

You guys are trippin if you think "hard work" alone will take you to the top in any respective field. No matter what it is, I'm a firm believer that genetics and physiology determines who becomes great and who doesn't.

Does that mean people like Mango have a specific allele on some chromosome that allows him to play melee better? Obviously not. But his brain chemistry and constitution allow him to see the game and comprehend it in a way that intrinsically gives him an advantage, and all he has to do is apply it.

Also, it should be noted that top performers in any field are usually also in the upper echelon in other related fields, even when they don't practice it often.

@Beat
"I'd like to point out that for the most part, the top players in a lot of popular sports (like football) are players who were considered average/mediocre when they were younger. But guess what, they didn't give up, and eventually they became better than the players that were considered better and more talented during their entire youth, because they were more determined and worked harder."

This isn't true at all. The vast majority of sports athletes are considered prodigies growing up. There are a handful of exceptions, but for the most part, players who become top in any respective sport are usually identified as being exceptionally talented from the age of like, 15.

 

[stelzig]

How is that changing the premise that everyone has the potential to do it? I don't care how hard (or what kind of) work you think it takes. If you are saying that everyone can do it, then you have to accept other people claiming it too. Calling them morons doesn't make them wrong. And if they are wrong, then you are wrong too. Since namecalling was all you could come up with, then I guess you actually realise this yourself too.

Not that I disagree with calling them morons, but that would only be for saying it (I already said I think the entire idea disrespectful), and not for being wrong... Or I do think they are wrong, but assuming that the "work hard and you will always prevail" idea isn't wrong, then I agree with them.

You are simply contradicting yourself if you think you aren't wrong, but they somehow are.

Edit: This was @ beat.

 

[Beat!]

@Jpobs

Also, it should be noted that top performers in any field are usually also in the upper echelon in other related fields, even when they don't practice it often.

That's because their skill carries over, since related fields test a similar set of skills.

This isn't true at all. The vast majority of sports athletes are considered prodigies growing up. There are a handful of exceptions, but for the most part, players who become top in any respective sport are usually identified as being exceptionally talented from the age of like, 15.

There are TONS of sport athletes who weren't considered prodigies growing up.

We should probably drop this particular point, because I don't see it turning into anything other than a "no u" contest (I say this because both of us could provide tons of examples that support our respective side, but we wouldn't really get anywhere unless someone found a research or something that CLEARLY proved themselves right).


@stelzig
Because, as you said, it's "basically a "/not impressed" comment". Unlike the "I could do that too"-sayers, I'm extremely impressed by the dedication top players show.

To clarify, I don't think they're "wrong", strictly speaking. I call them morons because they don't realize how much work is actually required.





Also, just to point it out, I never said that talent doesn't exist at all, but rather that the difference it makes isn't big enough in 99% of cases.

 

[Massive]

People don't want to accept the reality for a variety of reasons (varying situationally). I recall reading a study suggesting that more intelligent people tend to give more credence to the idea that everyone can achieve what they have achieved, likely because their intelligence leads them to realize that they are not so special. Said study also suggests that less intelligent people do quite the opposite: not having any real understanding of things, they give themselves more credit than they deserve, and think themselves special such that others cannot reach the same accomplishments.

Underestimation by competent individuals and overestimation by incompetent ones is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect, for those wondering about what Kal was referencing.

I place M2K in the former category. He has achieved personal success (a single instance of success against hundreds, if not thousands, of failures), and so he assumes it must be plausible for everyone to do so in the same way. But, in reality, it's a little absurd to suggest that, out of every single player out there, only a select few are truly motivated and truly train hard enough. While I'm sure there are players who are undeserving of being great, if dedication were what created masters, we'd have a lot more of them.

I'm inclined to agree with you. M2K's meteoric rise is evidence of that. By his own admission, he went from being an easily dispatched nub to beating top players in a year.
That is not something that commonly happens to anyone, or everyone would be as good as M2K.

I have been playing this game for the last decade, and for the last 6 years seriously. I'm still not even close to the best player in the region. Did I not put in as much effort as others? During my most serious period (2005-2007), I would smash with people almost every day and practice for 2-6 hours every night. I was dead-set on being awesome. When push came to shove, I couldn't even get top 3 in some of the local St. Louis tournaments with 15 entrants. I had been practicing for years.

By most admissions I am a very pragmatic person, and I am incredibly talented at picking up new concepts and implementing them. It is actually my occupation. However I have been unable to attain even a portion of what M2K did in a single year in the last 6. This isn't because I worked less, it is indicative of a difference in aptitude in regards to this game.

How many people do you know who have been playing for years who are not the best players even within their own crews? Chances are they are in the majority. You can overcome your deficiencies, but some people are just better suited and have an advantage, period.

 

[stelzig]

Why are you impressed by dedication if everyone can put in that dedication? My problem is exactly that you are putting everyone in the same booth and saying that people aren't different. Even putting in dedication is actually easier for some people - though generally a barrier that most people can overcome, not everyone get distracted equally much. Also: ADHD.

And how do you know that they don't realise that? You just said they aren't wrong, so why aren't they allowed to make the statement? Maybe their perception of how hard things (such as dedication) are, just isn't the same as yours, and as such this part doesn't impress them - This may be hard to follow if you don't want to believe that people are different and some don't have trouble with investing time and effort into something asperger style - Though my earlier point actually also is that I lose motivation and dedication if I know that my end result isn't unique, and thus I can somewhat relate to it being impressive purely because it seems so meaningless and shallow (my OP) in the first place

And what if I put the same amount of dedication and discipline (or whatever other word you've been using) into something else. Am I then allowed to not be impressed by other people's accomplishments in this game, and assume that if I had decided to put my dedication into smash instead, that I would then have yielded the exact same amount of success?

On a final note we should probably remember that we are currently discussing if it is a more comforting and "better" idea, that everyone are able to become the best at anything is true. Not if it actually is true. The post I originally quoted even agreed with me that it isn't true, and wether or not you find it better, doesn't make it true. I don't really know how I got dragged this far into the discussion since I only wanted to say, that I actually don't think that Bruce Lee idea was comforting either. I don't have much interest in arguing what kal was already arguing for me (and what I think is quite obvious) - and therefore I will most likely be leaving the discussion now, unless something extremely compelling is being posted

Edit: I can also put it this way: A world where everyone's the same would be boring. The impressive stuff comes from people being good at stuff we struggle with - and they become an inspiration to try and do better. Because the ego wants to be better/the best. And if people aren't different, there's no ego to me. No uniqueness. No identity.

 

[Kal]

Massive wins the thread. <3

I'll come back later and address some things, but I have grownup (ish) errands to go run.

 

[Beat!]

Agh screw it. I'll just concede this argument. For now, at least.

 

[stelzig]

Massive wins the thread. <3

Nono, massive and all those other people just aren't working with purpose.
Or if they are, then they aren't doing it right.

Hello. I hardly ever manage to stay away from a discussion once I have entered it. Dammit.

 

[Mew2King]

dude, i still think you guys overrate natural talent A LOT. Unless 2 people have VASTLY different intellects, they should be able to be a top 10 player for sure if they put a lot of effort. I truely believe this, and while everyone is obviously different, I think it's less big of a factor as you guys think.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

dude, i still think you guys overrate natural talent A LOT. Unless 2 people have VASTLY different intellects, they should be able to be a top 10 player for sure if they put a lot of effort. I truely believe this, and while everyone is obviously different, I think it's less big of a factor as you guys think.

Well, that different intellect is probably what contributes to natural talent as I see it. As I said before, there are lots of people out there who have probably have as much of a drive as others.

Once you reach the point of "I want to get better", you have to start on some path. But, who has any idea how to properly get better? Everyone seems to have different experiences about what helped them get better. There are all these plateaus at getting better and perhaps its a natural talent at knowing how to get out of those plateaus.

Me and someone else started playing roughly the same time with pretty much the same amount of exposure, I think. I did not have the same motivation I would say at wanting to improve for the longest time. After roughly a year, I started pouring more time into wanting to improve. He had been steadily improving for the longest time and I had absolutely no idea what he was doing to keep that up.

At first, I thought I lacked character control. Over a summer. I practiced nothing except that making sure I could make my character do what I wanted it to do when I told it to. That still did not seem to be working. I noticed those better than me had "tech skill". So, I decided to practice whatever tech skill stuff I could find out about. Picking up fox and falco I thought could improve my ability to play other characters. I had no idea if it did or not.

It didn't matter who I playing against I would lose every match I played. Against better players, I might take 1-2 stocks off. Against the similar skill level, I would still lose by like a stock or two. Even against random people who did not play, the matches would still go down to the last stock.

And the other guy who started at the same time as me, beating everyone below him badly and going even or better with the best in the area. And I have no idea what the hell I am doing wrong that I cannot get there too.

tl;dr? I would say there is a natural talent at work even if you have the drive. Having the motivation is what keeps you going, but after that you have to somehow figure out what your doing wrong and what you need to do right. Figuring out that distinction on your own seems to be a natural talent to me.

 

[stelzig]

Of course intelligence plays a part, it's a big part of what makes us different in the first place. You also won't be equally intelligent in all areas, which is part of the reason why you can't automatically think that you will be able to become the best at whatever you want to.

And m2k, you've mentioned plenty of times that your reaction time is poor (I wouldn't exactly call it poor, but anyway). This is a clear thing that seperates you from other players and it influences your potential and your playing style. Fortunately, this doesn't mean that you at some point won't be able to improve in other areas, so you can still compete with other people, but already here we can see that you are fighting on different terms and in "super theory potential", not everyone will end up even.

To make an even more obvious case we have broly. His handicap is so huge that he will fall short against many people even if he never reaches his full potential - always being able to improve, doesn't mean you will ever reach the same level as someone else. The improvement just becomes smaller, the closer you get to your potential. Think of running as an example here... You may always be able to improve your speed and lower your times that tiny bit, but you will never finish a marathon in 10 minutes.
(broly is amazing by the way and seeing him becoming the best in the world would indeed be a great realisation of the american dream, lol)

ps. That you are basically calling the people massive described unintelligent does in no way make the theory less insulting. (not to mention that in many fields, and most likely even smash... There's more than 10 people putting in that super high amount of effort where adding in more effort will make such a small difference that it is neglicible)

 

[Mew2King]

its like 0.23 seconds, while many other pros are under 0.2

It's always been bad for me, but it was MUCH WORSE before I started. I couldn't even chain grab when I was 15 cuz my reaction time was MUCH worse. Doing something over and over made me a lot better at it

I agree, it does hold me back. Intelligence wise, I think I'm way way up there (higher than my current ranking is, even though I'm like 5th atm or so), since every strategy I used comes off prediction and theorycraft that I make up, which takes intelligence to do both, but I still managed to figure out creative ways to get good JUST FROM TECH SKILL PRACTICE + THEORYCRAFT (mostly these 2, since I got almost NO human competition). And yes, reaction time DOES hold me back, and as I age, it will probably only get worse and as a result I will get slightly worse.

So, knowing that, simply play to your strengths. If you can't react to all situations, just guess, and cover it with a strong option. If your hands are fast or you like practicing tech skill, focus on that to get better, if you are smart but not technical, adapt a slow but focused spacing style, if your reaction time is good focus on reacting, but if it's not, then cover as many options as possible with a strong option (that kills, or combos into other powerful hits) and do that based on guessing so that you never get into habits that can be studied (I randomly guess a lot so as not to fall into patterns that can be studied. I learned to mix up a lot better within past 3 years). There is still A LOT more than can be done even while having limitations. Look how good Broly is. He got me to 1 stock in some marth dittos USING HIS FACE to play the game. And if you want to laugh at that, you should money match him, cuz he'd destroy most of you cuz he's SUPER SMART and was able to overcome many limitations MUCH MORE THAN PEOPLE THINK. Obviously it will hold him back, but unless you have some RIDICULOUS handicap like that, you can probably get MUCH farther than 99% of you think you can from effort ALONE.

Turn situations into 50 50s, and constantly make up new tricks every few weeks or months so the player can't just make 1 counter strategy to your strategy since you'll always be using new strats and it won't work out that simple.

Natural talent definitely matters, I already know that, but I STILL THINK IT'S OVERRATED. People LITERALLY give up when they could probably get 5 times better than they actually are from - PURE EFFORT ALONE -. My own experiences make me to believe that the rock lee motto is, for the most part, true. Maybe not 100%, but you're dismissing it as if some people can't be equal to others which is JUST NOT TRUE, unless they have vastly different intellecets, Super eye powers (Sasuke), one guy is 2 feet taller than the other for basketball, or things like that. You can still get MUCH better than you think your limitations are through ONLY effort. If you just listen to the ways I got better you can understand. Think about all the possible situations, ways to counter things, WAYS TO COVER AS MANY OPTIONS AS POSSIBLE, and practice tech skill vs level 1s. Experiment in friendlies. That was, for the most part (outside of spending hours doing theorycraft like drPP does cuz I was bored), what I did to get good during my prime years.


tl;dr - obviously natural talent exists, but it's not nearly as important as most people think. Using the Rock Lee motto, I was able to rise to the top when I cared about Melee most, and reach godly levels in Brawl and be a ~3 year champ. 99% of my practice was against level 1 computers.

I reached my prime in each game within about 2-2.5 years each AND I STILL THINK I COULD HAVE WENT WAY, WAY BEYOND THOSE LEVELS. When I stopped playing, lost controllers or controllers got worse, and stopped caring nearly as much (lost motivation), my skill declined. Besides controller problems, this entirely makes sense. There is no way it's coincidence every single time for 7 years.

I don't think I'm anything special, except just a regular smart guy that played a lot of video games. If I can do it, almost anyone can. They just have to really try. Try the methods of practice that I have suggested; they will probably help you. Or message me if you need to get better I can tell you lots of random things probably.

If you think you hit your limit, you are truely holding yourself back. That's a mindset for failure.

 

[Deleted member]

jason, i think you're right, but you didn't have to sound like a naru-tard to get there lol

 

[stelzig]

Reaction time can be improved and plain experience also lowers it and helps. But it doesn't mean that you can get the best reaction time in the world by pure effort - Yeah, you can be the best in the world at reacting to stuff too... xP

And you don't need to tell me to play to my strengths and all that. I merely wanted to state that the idea that everyone can reach their goal if they put their mind to it, is nothing but a dream. It's not about telling people to just give up, but telling them not to do stuff with blind confidence and an expectation to win because you played longer or worked harder than your peers.

So if you just think that people shouldn't give up and should stop whining, then we are in complete agreement. One of my previous posts cover that it is about not knowing what your potential in a given field is. (and you should always want to improve and have that drive to become better and reach new goals. Drive and motivation is a given)

Edit: The lots of random tips and stuff from you is very welcome. Since we use the same characters, I may very well take you up on that offer someday

 

[Mew2King]

And you don't need to tell me to play to my strengths and all that. I merely wanted to state that the idea that everyone can reach their goal if they put their mind to it, is nothing but a dream.

I'd say like 90% of the time this is wrong. Unless you're super handicapped (broly), super short for a basketball player (a 5 foot tall guy is going to be MASSIVELY disadvantaged compared to a 7 foot tall guy, and there is nothing he can do about it, period) or something you can't really do much about, and hinders you greatly for what your goal is, you can simply improve through effort.

I think intelligence can be GREATLY improved through effort.



AND EVEN IF IT CAN'T, knowledge STILL CAN (not even debatable this is a FACT), which is INSANELY USEFUL FOR ALMOST ANYTHING YOU DO




just work a lot at it. I truely believe this statement is true. You may have to work harder at it, but you can reach goals you never thought was possible.

When I started, I never thought I would beat Wes, he 3 stocked me.
few months later I was beating him in sets
Ken and UmbreonMow 4 stocked me at GS2 and I got 23rd my first national in 2005
year later I beat Ken in tournament with fox, then marth dittos on several occasions.
2007 I could jv 5 stock A LOT of players

I played nobody but COMPUTERS for 99% of my practice. Cactuar/Lord knight the other 1%. If I can start off as much dumber/worse-in-every-way, and become so good WITHOUT much human practice at all, then I believe almost anyone can do it (although playing people makes it a lot easier. I took the hard route, which is even more proof that PURE effort/dedication can get you INSANELY FAR).

If I can do it with those handicaps, the rest of you can do it easier by playing people. If you play many different people and ALSO put tons of effort on your own, there's an INSANELY HIGH CHANCE you'll succeed.


You can believe what you want, but this is what I believe.

bbl got a lot of collegework to do.

 

[stelzig]

Giving me examples of individuals (like yourself) that did accomplish things, will never convince me or anyone else. Just look at massive's post and we have an example of the opposite outcome. At large, you are only confirming that there is more to it.

I also do agree that people can reach goals they never thought possible (I recently heard a saying: "You can do twice as good as you think you can, and thrice as good as your mother thinks you can").

If you truly didn't think that you could beat Wes, then what was your drive to try and improve and possibly become better than him anyway? Doubt is fine (and healthy i'd say), and exactly what i'm advocating. (realism > optimism/pessimism)

 

[Mew2King]

If you truly didn't think that you could beat Wes, then what was your drive to try and improve and possibly become better than him anyway? Doubt is fine (and healthy i'd say), and exactly what i'm advocating. (realism > optimism/pessimism)

I'll answer this last thing before I go.

I truely did not think I could beat Wes, EVER. I Never though I could do it. I thought he was out of my league by far.

Then I just did. I got better gradually without noticing.

My drive was I wanted to do it. Even today, I don't have faith in myself (which holds me back a lot). I'm emo. I always surprise myself with the success I have in everything.

I didn't think I would win in a million years. I even said that to people.

It just happened.

I guess my drive was... I wanted to be the best. That's it.

bye

 

[stelzig]

So you're pretty much a pessimist by nature, but try to be optimistic by belief.

Tbh, I actually think our way of thinking is very similar, m2k. This is why i'm actually intrigued by your proposal about giving me advice. We've just reached different conclusions in the end. I'm hardly ever confident that i'll win, but i'm usually not confident that i'll lose/fail either. If things start not going my way midgame (in the case of melee), I will often start being more pessimistic though. Fortunately this does not work for me the other way around though - I think alot of people have a problem with starting to sleep on their opponents and it gives me opportunity to come back (i'm likewise known for being "better" on my last stock - my pessimism still doesn't mean i'm gonna stop trying).

 

[Deleted member]

When I started, I never thought I would beat Wes, he 3 stocked me.
few months later I was beating him in sets
Ken and UmbreonMow 4 stocked me at GS2 and I got 23rd my first national in 2005
year later I beat Ken in tournament with fox, then marth dittos on several occasions.
2007 I could jv 5 stock A LOT of players

yo but I watched you beat chillin and azen back to back before i played you at that event. you still *****.

 

[The Star King]

Well, I wouldn't go that far. In fact, quite the opposite: if you're only capable of doing something by chance (i.e., because of genetics), then you really shouldn't feel accomplished. Only if it is possible through effort should you feel accomplished, in my opinion.

Of course, this leads me to dismiss nationalism and ethnic pride. >_>

I love you. Always good to find someone who thinks like me in the country of patriotism.

 

[Armada]

m2k: yeah a lot of you personal stuff sucks BUT.

1: Reaction: I think Im the player that focus most on it and I have the same score as you on those reactions tests so I honestly think you don't believe you can do that because you donät handle it well enough yet (cause you are not used to it).

2: Your prime days from 07 and stuff is not better then you today even if you 4 stocked awesome players. Better compared to player X/Y but not better as a player.

3: Natural talent is more important then you think. The things you have done is pretty much impossible for a lot of players. I believe that some people are "born" to be better in some things and way worse in others. Ofc motivation is really important and without it you can't become the best cause being the best means a lot more then being talented. But I think you underrate it but I do people use it as an excuse a bit to often (without really trying like you are talking about)

 

[Blu]

I love you. Always good to find someone who thinks like me in the country of patriotism.

You're not alone. =]

 

[Kal]

See, I knew I had a fan base.

 

[The Star King]

I'm your BIGGEST fan though

 

[TreK]

Am I allowed to agree, though ?
I've always been super-good at school because both my parents are teachers and I have an exceptional auditive memory.
Not only did it anger hard-working friends of mine who didn't achieve the same results as me when I was just playing soccer all day long, but I was asked to keep my mouth shut to let the others have the time to think by many teachers/professors. Because of this, I feel much much more personal achievement by doing stuff I suck at like music.

This is why I admire people like m2k, who just had enough willpower to get from the 'I'm nobody' status to the 'Soulless Robot' status we know him for.
(this is also why it kinda makes me sad when I see him unhappy like that. Check this out, hope it gets you all pumped up :D)