Natural Talent

[LLDL]

I was thinking to myself the other day, and a thought occurred to me: What if there are others out there who could potentially be greater Melee players than anyone here in the community?

It didn't start out with Melee specifically, I was actually thinking about Basketball. A select few players get drafted and recruited into the NBA, narrowed down from colleges and camps, but there are millions upon millions of basketball players in America, most of whom are not interested in playing for the NBA, It's just their hobby. Basketball is a sport where there are probably hundreds of thousands of players who love the game and are extremely talented. I guarantee some of those players could have more skill overall than players who are in the NBA. It's all up to chance and opportunity. The players who are famous and who we see on television had the opportunities to reach higher plateaus. That in conjunction with their hard work got them to the position they are in today. The NBA is not the end all-be all of basketball skill though. If it were possible to have a power level scouter like in dragonball z to find natural talent, the ones with the highest power levels might not even be anyone in the NBA. It might not even be anyone who plays the sport at all. There may be completely random people out there with the physique, mindset, reaction time, strength, speed, and specific way that their mind works to just be superior players.

I was thinking all of that just because some of the games I see are terrible. These are supposed to be professionals? Right? There are probably better players out there that should be playing in some of these players place. But then I got to thinking, what about Melee? Melee isn't similar to Basketball in that sense. You aren't going to find random people outside of the competitive community that can compete with / beat high level players within the community. There are too many variables such match up experience, tech skill, and all the other things that go into being pro. But then it did occur to me that there are probably players / people out there that have the qualities required to be the best ssbm player. They may even be people that don't play, don't like, or may not have even heard of the game. Think about it, there are varying levels of natural talent within the community. Some of us have to practice hundreds of hours, only slowly and gradually increasing our skill, placing a little bit better than before but still staying relatively the same. Others of us barely practice, haven't even been around for that long, and place extraordinarily well, place better and better over time, and even upset established players. Not all of us have that natural talent. But what if someone, a genius, were to play this game? Someone who learns at an accelerated rate, faster than any player has before, has the reaction time, smarts, and mindset to be a pro, were to learn? Well, chances are that they probably wouldn't get good enough, fast enough to beat our top players either. But what if they were here from the beginning? Our top players wouldn't be who they currently are now, they would be a notch or two down the scale.

Basically the tldr of all this is: I believe that the people in the world with enough natural talent to surpass those who are the VERY best right now, don't even play this game, and probably never will. Even if they did, they probably wouldn't have enough time to commit to getting to that level of skill. Melee takes too long and has too many intricacies to learn very quickly. It takes time. So the premise of it is, we may never see this game being played at the highest plateau. It sort of goes with the saying "No matter how good you are, there is always someone out there better." The problem is, how do we find those people? We can't, there is no way to tell how much natural talent that someone has just by looking at them, and it's too late anyway. Of course, some of those people with the highest natural talent may already play this game competitively, but they have to put in the time and work to reach that high level of skill that we may or may not see. For example. maybe Armada, Hungrybox, Mango, etc ARE people with that highest level of natural talent. I doubt it though. It's undeniable that they all have EXTREME levels of natural talent to learn and improve, but is it the highest?

I don't think any of this really even matters lol. Our best players are already established and it will fluctuate a little here and there but will most likely stay the same. But it was just a thought I wanted to put out there, maybe some of you thought something similar?

 

[Bing]

I completely agree with this. I can almost garuntee there are some players who would be greater then 90% of the community but just dont want to be.

As an example, I've been teaching a few people how to play, and theres one person, whos picked everything up incredibly fast, way faster than I did, or even a lot of people (Took him 3 minutes to learn to wavedash consistently with Samus).

I picked things up rather slowly, but the better I get at this, the better I get at gaming in general

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Of course there could be better players out there, the melee community is not nearly large enough to think only the best players r playing right now.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I have had this thought many times before. I wondered what the top level metagame would look like if Melee were treated as something of a national/large sport like football for the USA, Starcraft: BW for Korea, or soccer for other countries.

Back when Mango was like, the undisputed best, I was wondering how much untapped potential for Melee exists out there. I asked myself, "What if some people out there have so much potential that they would be able to just curbstomp Mango if they started playing competitive Melee and dedicated themselves to it?" Thing is, there probably are a lot of them. It was an interesting thought. Like, what if Melee had enough scope, money, and influence to be able to reach out to those people? What if there were enough of these people that if they played, ALL of the top professionals that we know now would be C-class players in comparison?

The cool thing about Melee though is that all of our tournaments are open for anyone to enter, as opposed to the NBA and NFL where you need to be sorta lucky in that you have to have the opportunity to be let into the league. Also, since competitive Melee focuses on 1v1s, you don't have to be part of a team at all in order to have a shot at success.

 

[Massive]

It would take a special combination of Asperger's syndrome and overmedicated ADHD to create the perfect smasher.

Our labs have been working nonstop on this solution and will hopefully have a working prototype sometime around December 21, 2012.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I was in a rush so i didnt get to write all i wanted.

I wanted to bring up the idea/point about how in sports like bball they have scientifically figured out how to train and condition people to perform at a incredible level. My thought is there must be a way to train in smash that would net the most improvement

 

[Bing]

Yeah, quit everything but smash. Get a few good training partners, and go to town for about 6 years.

Or a Hyperbolic time chamber.

 

[t3h Icy]

The best players are the ones that can get as close as possible to resembling TAS.

 

[Beat!]

We'd definitely have much better top players if the community was bigger. Not necessarily because of "natural talent" though.

 

[Bing]

I think age also has its effect.

I believe if the community was younger, we could have better talent, the older we are getting, the more that life interferes with "practice" and player development.

 

[Xyzz]

It would take a special combination of Asperger's syndrome and overmedicated ADHD to create the perfect smasher.

Our labs have been working nonstop on this solution and will hopefully have a working prototype sometime around December 21, 2012.

The best melee player would be a emotionless M2k with the consistency and dedication of armada, the play to win mentality of Hungrybox, the analytical playstyle of Peepee, the natural amazingness of Mango and the overall technical ability of Silentwolf or Dark.

That guy would be scary :D

 

[Varist]

Not trying to diss M2K but the guy is not emotionless.

Now I'm trying to think of who has a rep for it though. I'd think Armada but Puff just makes him hate life so lol.

Hbox gets frustrated against certain players.

i don't ****ing know. Whoever knows amend Xyzz's synthesis

 

[Xyzz]

I didn't mean to call M2k, who quitted apex after dropping a set to wobbles "emotionless"; not gonna happen. I think M2k is a super amazing player (especially with his offstage / ledge game), who is only held back by being too frustrated sometimes. Imho he could even be #1 world if he weren't.

And I don't see anybody being completely rational about melee either, so i decided to start off my "player synthesis" by taking away the Kryptonite from the King of Mews

 

[Varist]

my bad misread your post xyzz

it'd be someone who doesn't play a techie character. promotes getting frustrated with botched inputs and sds

i think hbox is the closest to keeping his cool a majority of the time

 

[t3h Icy]

The best melee player would be a emotionless M2k with the consistency and dedication of armada, the play to win mentality of Hungrybox, the analytical playstyle of Peepee, the natural amazingness of Mango and the overall technical ability of Silentwolf or Dark.

That guy would be scary :D

Or how about...

The consistency and dedication of M2K, the play to win mentality of Mango, the overall technical ability of Hungrybox...

...the analytical playstyle of Hungrybox...

...and the natural amazingness of Hungrybox...

:D

 

[Psychoace]

*cough*isai*coughcough*

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I doubt Melee will ever last long enough for us to ever find out how much more skill anyone could put into this game. Without any sort of larger coverage to advertise to newer players, the older players will eventually retire and the low influx of newer players will all but kill melee. Brawl and its newer release I doubt will ever proof to be long lasting fighters either. Melee will probably have another decade left in it tops before it really dies out.

But until that time happens, there will probably be some pretty interesting things happening in the coming years. With good players serving as mentors, newer players can catch up relatively quickly. With the right environment and person, someone could probably be fairly decent at the game's current basis in probably about a year. After that it would be fine tuning and catching up. Once that happens, you have newer names coming out.

 

[Wobbles]

Or how about...

The consistency and dedication of M2K, the play to win mentality of Mango, the overall technical ability of Hungrybox...

...the analytical playstyle of Hungrybox...

...and the natural amazingness of Hungrybox...

:D

Mango does not play to win.

 

[TheDekuNut]

we must find Keanu Reeves and give him the red pill

 

[Tee ay eye]

Mango does not play to win.

i think all of those points were supposed to be a joke

 

[Battlecow]

I think more of the top talent players get drawn into the competitive scene than you might think. A ****load of people play casually; the ones who beat their friends (the "talented" ones) and who have a natural competitive streak go on to find the competitive scene.

Take Dr. PP. Tremendous natural talent, beats everyone he knows, goes online to see if there's anyone better than him, finds competitive scene.

 

[The Good Doctor]

obviously more players equals more collective skill.

 

[Wobbles]

i think all of those points were supposed to be a joke

I'd believe that if:

--Before he split his attention, M2K was the most consistent and dedicated Melee player;
--Hungrybox did NOT have impressive technical consistency and precision;
--Hungrybox wasn't also the fastest Puff with regards to links and timing windows, as well as exploiting combos people didn't know were real like d-air u-smash;
--There's no reason to believe HBox is NOT an analytical player;
--Hungrybox's ridiculous consistency and steady rise to the top aren't inherently amazing.

Either he's serious and off by a point, or he's joking and off by 4.

 

[Beat!]

While I completely agree with you, I think that was kinda part of the joke.

 

[The Star King]

@Wobbles Or he was serious about four points and threw in a joke one.

Do people truly think the posts of this world are divided into those that are completely serious, and those that are written only in jest? To believe that the two sides can never exist together in harmony... *sigh*. Such barbarism. Only a true connoisseur of humor such as myself can truly appreciate the beauty of t3h_icy's post.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

@Wobbles Or he was serious about four points and threw in a joke one.

Do people truly think the posts of this world are divided into those that are completely serious, and those that are written only in jest? To believe that the two sides can never exist together in harmony... *sigh*. Such barbarism. Only a true connoisseur of humor such as myself can truly appreciate the beauty of t3h_icy's post.

I just shaved and my skin feels funny,

 

[tarheeljks]

yeah, this is a niche community and as such there are people out there who could be great who will fall through the cracks. perhaps b/c they don't see the incentive, or b/c they never even picked up the game that said: (you can stop reading here if you want b/c the rest of this is somewhat off topic since i agree with his point)

at the risk of derailing, i disagree (very, very strongly) with you about basketball and see it as a meh comparison. there are few athletes, at least in america, who could be nba players but are not. even outside of america, i'd say the # is quite small. probabilities suggest they exist of course (the vast majority of them probably already play another sport professionally).

while there are people who play melee casually whocould be great if they would devote themselves, this doesn't really occur in basketball b/c it is mainstream with an extremely high payoff and thus attracts more talent. the basketball world, and i'd argue the major sporting world at large, has a very small population guys hanging around gyms somewhere dabbling in basketball who could be in the nba if someone had just showed them a basketball when they were younger, or if they had just tried harder.

b/c the physical barriers for basketball-- and for various other sports-- are so high, "talent" is identified and developed at an early age. not all, or even most development is carried out by professional organizations; a lot of it is grassroots. still, height is such a large barrier for basketball that a very high # nba caliber talents are identified, and extremely early at that. average height of an nba player is probably ~6'7. there are just not that many people tall enough to reasonably be in the nba to begin with and this doesn't even venture into other tangible traits like strength, speed, coordination, agility etc.

contrast this with melee. even provided that gaming popularity rivaled that of mainstream sports, it is more difficult to assess tangible traits that would make someone a good melee player. that's not to say top players don't share traits (e.g. baseline reaction time may be one), but they are not readily discernible. point being that in a world where melee were insanely popular, there may still be a relatively large population of people whose potential went untapped

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I wonder what should we do collectively to make Melee bigger. We need obviously sponsors and money to create even bigger tournaments, but what else?

 

[LLDL]

yeah, this is a niche community and as such there are people out there who could be great who will fall through the cracks. perhaps b/c they don't see the incentive, or b/c they never even picked up the game that said: (you can stop reading here if you want b/c the rest of this is somewhat off topic since i agree with his point)

at the risk of derailing, i disagree (very, very strongly) with you about basketball and see it as a meh comparison. there are few athletes, at least in america, who could be nba players but are not. even outside of america, i'd say the # is quite small. probabilities suggest they exist of course (the vast majority of them probably already play another sport professionally).

while there are people who play melee casually whocould be great if they would devote themselves, this doesn't really occur in basketball b/c it is mainstream with an extremely high payoff and thus attracts more talent. the basketball world, and i'd argue the major sporting world at large, has a very small population guys hanging around gyms somewhere dabbling in basketball who could be in the nba if someone had just showed them a basketball when they were younger, or if they had just tried harder.

b/c the physical barriers for basketball-- and for various other sports-- are so high, "talent" is identified and developed at an early age. not all, or even most development is carried out by professional organizations; a lot of it is grassroots. still, height is such a large barrier for basketball that a very high # nba caliber talents are identified, and extremely early at that. average height of an nba player is probably ~6'7. there are just not that many people tall enough to reasonably be in the nba to begin with and this doesn't even venture into other tangible traits like strength, speed, coordination, agility etc.

contrast this with melee. even provided that gaming popularity rivaled that of mainstream sports, it is more difficult to assess tangible traits that would make someone a good melee player. that's not to say top players don't share traits (e.g. baseline reaction time may be one), but they are not readily discernible. point being that in a world where melee were insanely popular, there may still be a relatively large population of people whose potential went untapped

I see what you're getting at. My basis for defining talent though, was more directed towards a person's mental strengths. For example, take a featherweight and heavyweight champion in boxing. Overall, the featherweight might have a sharper eye, better reflexes, more knowledgeable about the sport, more experience, and overall just naturally have a superior sense for boxing than the heavy weight champion in every possible way with the exception of size, weight and strength. It is for this reason that the featherweight champion may have no chance of beating him in a fight. That's why weight classes were created, to expand upon scales of talent that would otherwise just be the biggest and strongest fighters winning fights. In basketball, while it is true that the tallest, thickest, stronger players are chosen, I believe there are players out there who just have way more talent in general, and greater minds for basketball than these people that are being recruited, although they will never have the chance. As you said, they don't meet the physical requirements. I guess you could argue that being physically superior is a natural talent also though, and I won't discredit that

 

[KrIsP!]

I wonder what should we do collectively to make Melee bigger. We need obviously sponsors and money to create even bigger tournaments, but what else?

We need Smash 4 to be terrible and still somehow ruin the brawl community. Then we absorb and have a free year of people who don't know melee very well but don't have much of a choice because Smash 4 tournies are the equivalent of game stop tournies and brawl tournies are stuck with locals because of a great divide.

This probably won't happen, I mean it definitely will but not to the point that neither can survive. Melee might see a rise in the community in the coming years, even if only a small one. Also, more money just excites those a part of the community, doesn't bring people in. There are a lot of people who would love to join but don't know it exists and we really just need to advertise. Streams will help that, MLG backing would too.

 

[Rubyiris]

I just shaved and my skin feels funny,

best post .

 

[GOTM]

I'm replying to the OP here. This theory is relevant to just about everything in the world, up and down. Politics, sports, gaming, and just about every single profession in between.

I think the only thing to keep in mind here relevant to smash is, you can always improve, and that should apply to everything you do.

 

[Warhawk]

I do think that natural talent plays a large role in how quickly/well you learn to play smash, but I think that the people that would be most talented at smash already play it or play some other video game a lot. From my experience people that learn smash the quickest/play it best generally have years of experience when they were younger playing video games. Those who didn't play many video games when they were younger tend to take longer to learn to play smash well and generally just aren't as good as those who did play video games when they were younger.

 

[Max?]

I didn't read the OP all the way through, or any of the posts in this thread, but the idea of "Natural Talent" is bs. Stars who "come out of nowhere" have dedicated thousands of hours to their craft in order to be good at it. Read "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell, he completely debunks the idea of "Natural Talent" existing.

 

[Jockmaster]

I see it all the time when kids have the natural talent to play smash (very quick reflexes, ability to analyze the opponent, good control over character), but they lack one key component: desire. They don't want to put the time and effort in to a game that isn't super popular or relevant.

While we see Melee as a fantastic competitive pseudo-fighter, most people see it as just "that game we played when we were kids". And that is why their potential will forever linger in fsmash-spam limbo.

 

[Bones0]

I didn't read the OP all the way through, or any of the posts in this thread, but the idea of "Natural Talent" is bs. Stars who "come out of nowhere" have dedicated thousands of hours to their craft in order to be good at it. Read "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell, he completely debunks the idea of "Natural Talent" existing.

I never understood how people could dispute natural talent. I mean, surely you've played one of those people that practice hours on end and is still an uncoordinated noob, right? Some people are very clearly just NOT equipped to play this game at a competitive level. The ability to dedicate thousands of hours to a craft is a skill in its own right. People like to suggest if someone practiced hard enough they could overcome whatever detriments they naturally have, but this completely ignores the possibility that other people can be practicing just as much. I think most people are capable enough that if they worked their ***** off they could compensate for their weak areas well enough to get to a pretty high level, but they will still never reach that top echelon.

 

[Max?]

You have to practice with purpose. I have friends that practice and "play" all the time, but they don't have the right mentality, don't practice and examine the right things, and then get upset when they don't see the results they want.

I could give you a ton of examples of individuals/groups that possessed "Natural Talent" in many fields like sports (of all kinds) and music, and thus became overnight sensations who "came out of nowhere". Yet the shocking and consistent reality with all of these stories is that they dedicated a TON of time and effort into honing their craft and were just under the radar for a long time.

 

[finalcloud13]

If everyone could practice the same amount, there still would be a better player. We'd say that person has more natural talent.

 

[Deleted member]

I never understood how people could dispute natural talent. I mean, surely you've played one of those people that practice hours on end and is still an uncoordinated noob, right? Some people are very clearly just NOT equipped to play this game at a competitive level. The ability to dedicate thousands of hours to a craft is a skill in its own right. People like to suggest if someone practiced hard enough they could overcome whatever detriments they naturally have, but this completely ignores the possibility that other people can be practicing just as much. I think most people are capable enough that if they worked their ***** off they could compensate for their weak areas well enough to get to a pretty high level, but they will still never reach that top echelon.

smashers are like any other group of people: a few winners and a whole lot of losers.

some people learn faster than others, as is usually indicated by relative intelligence. but you can overcome intelligence with motivation, a deep sincere interest, and The Google Machine. it ends up being a curtain to hide behind, not a legitimate excuse.

broly plays with his ****ing face. no one in here has the right to ***** about natural talent.

 

[Wobbles]

Talent exists. If you don't think it does, you are being delusional. If you are claiming that it does exist, but doesn't have an impact at the high end, then you are ALSO being delusional, because you are claiming that a talented player who works equally as hard as a non-talented player will end up at the same spot eventually.

Umbreon: Broly has serious limitations on the kinds of strategies that he can deal with because of the limits of how he can manipulate the controller. He has an excellent mind, terrific spacing, good adaptation, but his physical limits hinder him. He's worked around many of them, but they still exist.

Max: There are talented people who developed their skills by combining talent with hard work. There are people who, given the same kind of work and the same amount of work, would not have reached the same levels.

Yeah, some people say "this guy is more talented than me so whatevs," throw their hands in the air, and give up prematurely. You do not know the levels you will reach until you have put in the dedication and intelligent effort to reach those levels. That does not mean that those levels will be as high as somebody born with superior physicality and mental processing speed, who has exerted the same amount (hell, sometimes less) effort.