Natural Talent

[Mahone]

hahah ya, i love how the argument against natural talent is always... i can be better than them if i work hard...

what happens if they have more natural talent (i.e. reflexes) and they also work as hard as you??


I'm not saying its a john... the truth is no one dedicates their life 24/7 to smash and is perfectly efficient in how they learn, so if we are using smash as an example, then ya, no matter what you're natural talent is, you can probably become the best by training better and more often than your competition...

but that is in no way proof that natural talent doesn't exist

 

[Max?]

Happy reading boys

 

[LLDL]

My library has that book. I'll take a look at it.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I've seen people pick up a game and be better than me when I started, so isn't that natural talent right there? I think Mahone is getting talent mixed up with potential. Even if two people work just as hard as eachother, that doesn't mean the person that started out better will stay better.

 

[Beat!]

Talent may or may not exist, but it would only matter in the most popular sports, where there are millions of people who put in a ridiculous amount of dedicated practice. And even then, you can still compensate for it with hard work, up until you get to the very VERY top level, where "talent" (assuming it does exist) may make a difference.

This is not the case in smash. Not even close. Not even close to being close. Not only is the community way too small for talent to make a difference, but the amount of practice our top level players put in is also nowhere NEAR what pro athletes go through pretty much every single day.

And yeah, some players may have an easier time than others going from terrible to sort of decent when they start playing (not that that necessarily has anything to do with talent), but at the top level, hard work and hard work only is the thing that matters.

TL;DR: Dedication/Hard work>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Talent"

 

[The Good Doctor]

Talent may or may not exist, but it would only matter in the most popular sports, where there are millions of people who put in a ridiculous amount of dedicated practice. And even then, you can still compensate for it with hard work, up until you get to the very VERY top level, where "talent" (assuming it does exist) may make a difference.

This is not the case in smash. Not even close. Not even close to being close. Not only is the community way too small for talent to make a difference, but the amount of practice our top level players put in is also nowhere NEAR what pro athletes go through pretty much every single day.

And yeah, some players may have an easier time than others going from terrible to sort of decent when they start playing (not that that necessarily has anything to do with talent), but at the top level, hard work and hard work only is the thing that matters.

TL;DR: Dedication/Hard work>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Talent"

Tell that to Naruto

 

[Beat!]

Naruto, talent doesn't matter nearly as much as some people want to believe.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Naruto, talent doesn't matter nearly as much as some people want to believe.

I was looking for a Naruto "Believe it!" picture, but they are all incredibly lame.

 

[leffen]

I think of talent as something very very different as you guys... thinking of it as "Mango has the most talent, but he isnt the best because he doesnt try" is extremely stupid imo. Having the determination to practice like m2k, to fight the haters and to have a mindset fit for the game is MUCH more important than learning 10% faster than the next guy.

Oh, and thinking that people are "born" with talent is even more stupid. Its more about how they grow up and how their environment affects them than the genetic code
Having "talent" for a game is to be fit for doing well in it because of ANYTHING, not just learning fast at the start like 99% of people here think.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I think of talent as something very very different as you guys... thinking of it as "Mango has the most talent, but he isnt the best because he doesnt try" is extremely stupid imo. Having the determination to practice like m2k, to fight the haters and to have a mindset fit for the game is MUCH more important than learning 10% faster than the next guy.

Oh, and thinking that people are "born" with talent is even more stupid. Its more about how they grow up and how their environment affects them than the genetic code.

I agree with this

 

[The Good Doctor]

I think of talent as something very very different as you guys... thinking of it as "Mango has the most talent, but he isnt the best because he doesnt try" is extremely stupid imo. Having the determination to practice like m2k, to fight the haters and to have a mindset fit for the game is MUCH more important than learning 10% faster than the next guy.

Oh, and thinking that people are "born" with talent is even more stupid. Its more about how they grow up and how their environment affects them than the genetic code.

I know people that

-Play more
-Are more determined
-Are more serious

Yet, they are worse than me.

 

[Deleted member]

I think of talent as something very very different as you guys... thinking of it as "Mango has the most talent, but he isnt the best because he doesnt try" is extremely stupid imo. Having the determination to practice like m2k, to fight the haters and to have a mindset fit for the game is MUCH more important than learning 10% faster than the next guy.

actually i've had this stance for a long time now. motivation + interest > intelligence.

 

[The Good Doctor]

actually i've had this stance for a long time now. motivation + interest > intelligence.

I believe the teachers in the special schools want a word with you for you know, getting their hopes up.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

most people in special schools are just sick, and not necessarily born stupid, and theyre not getting adquate treatment because most doctors are *******. theres examples of ppl getting iqs improved from 25 (yes) to 75 when they stopped drinking milk due to cerebral milk allergy.

and yes, talent does exist, and theres a huge number of factors that influence your talent: your current psychosocial and biophysical envoiroment (i'm 100% sure that people who eat junk like pizza and mcdonalds all day etc are made stupid by malnutrition and poisoning), your past psychosocial and biophysical envoiroment, genes (and remember that biophysical/psychosocial factors effect how genes get used, so you're not just born with it), your level of confiedence (if you constantly tell yourself that you suck you will learn slowly), your level of stupidity, creativity, etc etc etc

i honestly think that people shouldn't sweat it and worry about their level of skill, theres to many factors that play a role. just play and try to improve. some people get good in like 3 months but then hit a roadblock and dont seem to go any further, others suck for 2 years and then start getting really good, etc.

 

[leffen]

I know people that

-Play more
-Are more determined
-Are more serious

Yet, they are worse than me.

Look, I've seen you post a couple of times and all of them have been fkn dumb.


You can be more "talented" than them even though they play more than you, ******.
The fact that they are more determined HELPS, but if you have even more fit (ie have played more competitive games before, is very smart etc) then your talent is still "better".

Also, all of talent doesnt show at n00b level. There are a LOT of people who are "great at games" who pick up games very quickly but they don't have the skills fit for top level play

 

[The Good Doctor]

Look, I've seen you post a couple of times and all of them have been fkn dumb.


You can be more "talented" than them even though they play more than you, ******.
The fact that they are more determined HELPS, but if you have even more fit (ie have played more competitive games before, is very smart etc) then your talent is still "better".

Also, all of talent doesnt show at n00b level. There are a LOT of people who are "great at games" who pick up games very quickly but they don't have the skills fit for top level play

Why are you so mad? You put words in my mouth and then insult me? That's a great way to get a point across. Having determination only gets people so far sometimes.

 

[Beat!]

There's a difference between practice and efficient practice/practice with a purpose. Just because they play more than you it doesn't (necessarily) mean they'll improve faster.

 

[The Good Doctor]

There's a difference between practice and efficient practice/practice with a purpose. Just because they play more than you it doesn't (necessarily) mean they'll improve faster.

Obvious is obvious.
Which was my point.
Leffen was saying practice and determination are the most important factors, when in fact some people have practiced FAR more, yet seem to always lose to players than haven't dedicated even a fraction of the time they have.

the main source of this is M2K, by his logic M2K should be the best player.

 

[Beat!]

That's because of practice vs practice with purpose, not practice vs talent.

And M2K was the best for quite a while, and has been top 5 in the world for years now, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at with that...

 

[The Good Doctor]

That's because of practice vs practice with purpose, not practice vs talent.

And M2K was the best for quite a while, and has been top 5 in the world for years now, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at with that...

You turned it into practice vs practice with purpose, and Leffen brought up M2K.
the thing you are failing to understand is that, he's wrong because his explanation is wrong. If the person that had put the most time into the game was the best at it, then I would see his value his opinion and agree.

But with all the hours he has logged, he loses to a player that only uses two moves.

 

[leffen]

Obvious is obvious.
Which was my point.
Leffen was saying practice and determination are the most important factors, when in fact some people have practiced FAR more, yet seem to always lose to players than haven't dedicated even a fraction of the time they have.

the main source of this is M2K, by his logic M2K should be the best player.

OMFG YOU ARE SO DUMB RARWRGGG


I didnt say practice and determination are the most important factors. READ THE POST. and if using 2 moves is the best, then what those moves and when to use those well requires talent.

EVERYTHING that makes you a better player is "talent", not just practice and determination ffs. M2K was in his way incredibly fit for smash because he could sit 6hours everyday and just play but that doesnt mean that people that people who play 3 hours everyday and think/have a better mindset can outperform him.

And training with purpose and thinking /watching smash also helps lol.

Just read and actually understand my post before you come up with your bull**** please


edit: If the person that had put the most time into the game was the best at it, then I would see his value his opinion and agree.
^this confirms that your opinion is essentially ****

 

[The Good Doctor]

I think of talent as something very very different as you guys... thinking of it as "Mango has the most talent, but he isnt the best because he doesnt try" is extremely stupid imo. Having the determination to practice like m2k, to fight the haters and to have a mindset fit for the game is MUCH more important than learning 10% faster than the next guy.

Oh, and thinking that people are "born" with talent is even more stupid. Its more about how they grow up and how their environment affects them than the genetic code
Having "talent" for a game is to be fit for doing well in it because of ANYTHING, not just learning fast at the start like 99% of people here think.

By you saying much more, you are implying

Practice > Potential

Are you not? If not, what are you implying? The ability someone has to be good at something can't be measured, yet there are people out there that are better than others even though they

-Play less
-Play without as much dedication
-Lack of good practice

Experience is obviously a factor in the over all skill level of the player, but when players beat another on a consistent basis even though they have far less experience is what destroys your argument.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

most people in special schools are just sick, and not necessarily born stupid, and theyre not getting adquate treatment because most doctors are *******. theres examples of ppl getting iqs improved from 25 (yes) to 75 when they stopped drinking milk due to cerebral milk allergy.

and yes, talent does exist, and theres a huge number of factors that influence your talent: your current psychosocial and biophysical envoiroment (i'm 100% sure that people who eat junk like pizza and mcdonalds all day etc are made stupid by malnutrition and poisoning), your past psychosocial and biophysical envoiroment, genes (and remember that biophysical/psychosocial factors effect how genes get used, so you're not just born with it), your level of confiedence (if you constantly tell yourself that you suck you will learn slowly), your level of stupidity, creativity, etc etc etc

i honestly think that people shouldn't sweat it and worry about their level of skill, theres to many factors that play a role. just play and try to improve. some people get good in like 3 months but then hit a roadblock and dont seem to go any further, others suck for 2 years and then start getting really good, etc.

Suddenly I like you even more.

****** <3

 

[leffen]

By you saying much more, you are implying

Practice > Potential
.

HOW IS PRACTICE EVEN RELATED TO POTENTIAL WTF.

You make ZERO sense dude. Seriously, get it together.

ALL im saying is that the will+determination+stamina to play more is a PART OF being talent. I have written this maybe 3 times now, last in the post you answered. How do you not get it.

"The ability someone has to be good at something can't be measured, yet there are people out there that are better than others even though they
-Play less
-Play without as much dedication
-Lack of good practice"

Uh, who of the top players (noob level like you dont mean **** btw) have these? And if there are ppl like this, then their could talent is that they are simply smarter / learn faster (which again for the 10381031 time, is still a part of talent!), have a better mindset, have good reaction time/finger precision.

Your definition of talent cannot be measured, mine can (since tournaments show who are the most fit for the game)
Do you not realize this lol.

"Experience is obviously a factor in the over all skill level of the player, but when players beat another on a consistent basis even though they have far less experience is what destroys your argument"

ARE YOU SERIOUS. I have time and time again said that talent DOES exist and everyone isnt equally fit for playing Melee so some will outperform people who have more experience (I know this very well since my melee career is good example of me beating people with 10times more playtime).

All your above quote is saying is "Experience isn't everything" which is super obvious and does nothing against my reasoning.

 

[Wobbles]

Happy reading boys

"I'm a huge fan of Malcolm Gladwell," one well-known music industry insider told me. "I loved Blink and The Tipping Point. But I think Outliers is just too glib a formulation. It's not that anybody with ten years is going to be the Beatles." Maybe anybody could learn to be a decent musician from practice alone, but to be truly great, a musician needs more than hard work. Musical skill is, for everybody, something that must be cultivated, but there are differences in how fast people learn, and perhaps in the levels they can ultimately attain. The Beatles themselves learned almost everything they knew on the job, but they put in more like two thousand hours, not ten thousand, even counting all the once- and twice-a-day shows at the Cavern Club and in Hamburg. Meanwhile, thousands of musicians have put in their ten thousand hours without becoming stars or producing any music of lasting note; to focus solely on practice is to unfairly dismiss talent. Consider, for example, Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page; neither started until he was an adolescent (relatively late in life by musicians' standards), but both were playing professionally within a year or so of when they started. They clearly learned faster than most of their peers and (it goes without saying) eventually attained heights that almost nobody else ever did...

Practice--even deliberate practice, working hard at one's weaknesses and not just noodling around having fun--can't by itself fully predict musical achievement. Other factors, including general intelligence, auditory aptitude, and working memory capacity, are also demonstrably critical, even after the effects of practice are statistically controlled for. Not surprisingly, the highest-level performers are likely to be people who combine the greatest talent with the most practice. (And, if you want to be technical about it, practice itself isn't entirely independent of biology. How we respond to experience, and even what type of experience we seek, are themselves in part functions of the genes we are born with. It's not nature versus nurture; it's nature working together with nurture.)

Happy reading.

 

[Bones0]

Guys guys guys guys guys...

If you work hard enough and practice with purpose, even YOU can do THIS!

Spoiler

Oh wait no. That guy just has an inordinate amount of NATURAL TALENT.

 

[tarheeljks]

I didn't read the OP all the way through, or any of the posts in this thread, but the idea of "Natural Talent" is bs. Stars who "come out of nowhere" have dedicated thousands of hours to their craft in order to be good at it. Read "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell, he completely debunks the idea of "Natural Talent" existing.

i've read it, not that compelling imo (selection bias remains a significant issue). to be fair, i also think gladwell is a bit of a hack

edit: it's great evidence that work ethic is necessary to excel, though i doubt many people ever doubted this, but it doesn't indicate that it is sufficient and doesn't actually dispel the idea that some people start at a higher level. for instance, his work really does very little to address the existence of "prodigies." he talks about hockey players being born in certain times of the year, but why was someone like gretzky as good as people far older than him before putting in comparable amounts of time (not to say he did not practice a lot b/c he did)

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

OMG EVERYONE ARE SO DUMB EXCEPT ME IM A GENIUS AND ENTITLED AND IM RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING GRRRRRRRR

cool story bro

 

[Divinokage]

I guess people with talent simply are able to understand problems much faster than some others. I mean there's a ****TON of variables as to why someone would be able to overcome fears or weaknesses they have. It's all about thought process in this sense. When you understand your weaknesses and strengths, then all you gotta do is put a ton of time to train well! You cannot accomplish anything without putting tons of hours and maybe more if you can than someone else that wants to be strong. So.. yes there are always ways you can find to train better and create things you think will work out for you. That's for everyone else to figure out on their own, I mean breaking those mental barriers. You have to know you can do it without being afraid or have doubt.. but at the same time you gotta ask yourself the right questions so I guess that could be considered doubt too. =P

 

[Bing]

This has turned into such a troll fest its amazing.


If some of the posts here arent trolling, I dont even know what to tell them....

 

[Lovage]

talent exists but dedication and positivity **** it any day of the week

edit: in the game of ssbm not the game of painting NYC from memory lol

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Suddenly I like you even more.

****** <3

missed this.
<3
i see youre finnish, and since youre partially responsible for the greatest boattrips ever conceived by mankind, i shall accept you as my humble padawan in the sacred teachings of being awesome and ****ing up flopmericans
is your irl nickname novice? have we played?

 

[Massive]

Every single leffen post shows him in INTERNET TOUGH GUY BULLY MODE. Someone needs to pry off his shift/caps lock keys and grammar correct his hyperbolic insults into hilarious quips about lutefisk or something.

I actually agree with him in this instance, but jeez.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

missed this.
<3
i see youre finnish, and since youre partially responsible for the greatest boattrips ever conceived by mankind, i shall accept you as my humble padawan in the sacred teachings of being awesome and ****ing up flopmericans
is your irl nickname novice? have we played?

We met at Tampora 3. My nick is Novi but lazy mods won't change my name.
I will kneel down before you and humbly request you to teach me your holy ways of trollery and much needed bashing of flopmericans. Together we will make this world a better place. Amen.

 

[Beat!]

mods won't change my name.

That's because you need premium, not because they're lazy. It's 4$ for 3 months iirc.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

We met at Tampora 3. My nick is Novi but lazy mods won't change my name.
I will kneel down before you and humbly request you to teach me your holy ways of trollery and much needed bashing of flopmericans. Together we will make this world a better place. Amen.

Indeed, I will teach you my amazing ways. You are already proving yourself very worthy, I am proud of you, padawan.
btw i remember you now, you where the guy who met mazor in bracket right?

That's because you need premium, not because they're lazy. It's 4$ for 3 months iirc.

its greed then

 

[Beat!]

Oh yes, definitely. I was just clarifying. =p

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

btw i remember you now, you where the guy who met mazor in bracket right?

Yes. I 2-0d him. He went to eat köttbullar. Then I realized the bracket set was bo5 so I called him back and barely won the set 3-2 lol.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

yhea i remember mazor telling me about that XD

 

[Cactuar]

I hate these threads.

There are many variables that lead to overall skill/talent/ability. Determination, endurance, learning curve, prediction, memory, creativity, attitude, muscle adaptation, and emotional response are just a few of those variables. Having an advantage in any of them leads to having a potential advantage over others if the person chooses to use it to their advantage.

Natural talent is too vague a term, as there are many types of affinities that can be applied here. It's kinda like how we used to use the term "mind games" for all kinds of stuff. You really need to break it down and address a specific variable, not use blanket terms.