finalcloud13
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2007
- Messages
- 98
^ Very well put.
-
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Natural Talent
- Thread starter LLDL
- Start date
Aber
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2010
- Messages
- 276
cactuar ur amazing.....Exactly this
Divinokage
Smash Legend
A lot of people pretty much said the same thing, why is Cactuar getting all the credit. lol. Either people really don't read or dismiss posts by some users..
Bing
Smash Master
They see Moderator or Backroom Members and assume its good.
They see regular user and skip it over.
People are attracted to coloured names.
Someone Prank me!
They see regular user and skip it over.
People are attracted to coloured names.
Someone Prank me!
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Lmao thats pretty bull**** then. Everyone has their own unique twist to put their opinions, I guess some of them reflect better overall on others. Also, whatever people say should be valued and accepted.. except if it's deliberately trolling.
Bing
Smash Master
Well, I do see certain names and feel intrigued to read them, from people like you, KK, Unknown, Cactuar, Wobbles etc.
KrIsP!
Smash Champion
I see now why you use blue font. Cactuar is generally a great poster though, even if he is late on saying smart things sometimes. (I'm remembering his two stock idea thread and how someone linked themselves saying it and getting hated on)
He, and many others, are still right though. When it comes to smash you can't get good just off of 'natural talent' and you can't compare it to sports. Unless you have an extra finger it's not like natural talent in basketball where being taller or having more stamina effects your game. Smash has a lot of variables and I guess it's true some people already have/excel at certain things but there's nothing you can't work on.
He, and many others, are still right though. When it comes to smash you can't get good just off of 'natural talent' and you can't compare it to sports. Unless you have an extra finger it's not like natural talent in basketball where being taller or having more stamina effects your game. Smash has a lot of variables and I guess it's true some people already have/excel at certain things but there's nothing you can't work on.
Bing
Smash Master
No I use blue font because I like being different 
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Hmm....
Cactuar is definitely right about all the differences that makes players good/bad, but still overall, some players will have a greater starting advantage than others.
Potentially, there are people that would become the best player in a year, but Melee is only one of so many avenues a person can use natural talent in, and they could be curing cancer, playing in the NFL, or inventing and building things. Likewise, top Melee players may have done other awesome things had they focused their time into something else. It would be silly to think that Armada/Mango would be the best in the world if EVERYONE played Melee; it would be extremely unlikely that they happened to have the greatest potential out of the ~7 billion people alive today.
I can actually kind of relate. I used to do all sorts or mathematical and statistical work with Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow since I got really into its metagame and playing it competitively, and I did a ton of stuff that nobody has done before. Realistically though, if top professors of those subjects dedicated their time into it like I did, they'd certainly blow everything I've done out of the water, since I'm just a wee undergrad applying the things I've learned as a hobby.
Similarly, if the top minds of the world put their time and effort into Meleeology, the metagame would change incredibly, and if the greatest technical players of any and all games focused on Melee, Melee 2012 would look super slow.
Being realistic, Melee is just a hobby (some may call it a sport or more), and not important to the world, so there's a lot of potential still unlocked in the game. Fortunately for us fans and competitors, that allows the metagame to develop at a pace that keeps the game fresh, rather than being solved/completed in 2002.
Cactuar is definitely right about all the differences that makes players good/bad, but still overall, some players will have a greater starting advantage than others.
Potentially, there are people that would become the best player in a year, but Melee is only one of so many avenues a person can use natural talent in, and they could be curing cancer, playing in the NFL, or inventing and building things. Likewise, top Melee players may have done other awesome things had they focused their time into something else. It would be silly to think that Armada/Mango would be the best in the world if EVERYONE played Melee; it would be extremely unlikely that they happened to have the greatest potential out of the ~7 billion people alive today.
I can actually kind of relate. I used to do all sorts or mathematical and statistical work with Pokemon Red/Blue/Yellow since I got really into its metagame and playing it competitively, and I did a ton of stuff that nobody has done before. Realistically though, if top professors of those subjects dedicated their time into it like I did, they'd certainly blow everything I've done out of the water, since I'm just a wee undergrad applying the things I've learned as a hobby.
Similarly, if the top minds of the world put their time and effort into Meleeology, the metagame would change incredibly, and if the greatest technical players of any and all games focused on Melee, Melee 2012 would look super slow.
Being realistic, Melee is just a hobby (some may call it a sport or more), and not important to the world, so there's a lot of potential still unlocked in the game. Fortunately for us fans and competitors, that allows the metagame to develop at a pace that keeps the game fresh, rather than being solved/completed in 2002.
Bing
Smash Master
Wooo! Someone took my "Advice"
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
Indeed. Example:
In other words, deep down people do agree that i am ****ing amazing and right about everything.
It's probably because I format my posts nicely and make them easy to read.
It's like when people insult you in a language you don't understand. Doesn't mean **** because you can't understand what they are saying, and yet they seem to expect you to be insulted as if you did.
Just looking at that "example", I immediately see this fat, vague wall of words that is repeatedly interrupted with parenthesized passages and ignore it.
Honestly, how many people read teh_icy's post? That **** is in bright pink and hurts my eyes. I read "Cactuar is definitely right..." and then stopped reading. I think the point he is making by using that color is clear, but not the point of the writing.
The first response to my post gets it right. "Very well put." NOT "This is more correct than the other posts in this thread."
It's like when people insult you in a language you don't understand. Doesn't mean **** because you can't understand what they are saying, and yet they seem to expect you to be insulted as if you did.
Just looking at that "example", I immediately see this fat, vague wall of words that is repeatedly interrupted with parenthesized passages and ignore it.
Honestly, how many people read teh_icy's post? That **** is in bright pink and hurts my eyes. I read "Cactuar is definitely right..." and then stopped reading. I think the point he is making by using that color is clear, but not the point of the writing.
The first response to my post gets it right. "Very well put." NOT "This is more correct than the other posts in this thread."
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
vs
Oh, how my shameful flopmerican education has failed me.
I'm good at smash because I apply my intelligence to my play.
I'm popular(debatable) as a result of my writing and my personality.
I'm a mod as a result of my contributions to the smash community.
You are a nobody to me in smash, so I can't speak either way about your player skill.
You are unpopular on the boards because of your writing and your personality.
You are a joke on the boards as a result of your overall negative contributions to the smash community.
Clown.
But you know. Keep doin what you're doin. Really sticking it to the Americans. On a forum about a video game. That e-peen really needs tending to. I'm sure it'll all eventually end up with your position being "oh, I'm just trolling", which is easily translated to "Oh, I was proven to be a ******, so I'll say I was trolling."
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
yhea the swedish and eu scene hates me aswell because of my terrible personality =( boohoo
and ive never contributed to the community at all either. damn, im a terrible person, you really put me in my place
and ive never contributed to the community at all either. damn, im a terrible person, you really put me in my place
Right, notice how I actually specified boards and not "swedish and eu scene"?
Also notice how I never link smash contributions to being a good or bad person?
You aren't even a troll. You are simply a clown. Someone everyone can laugh at when we see you post. Your complaint here is that my posts are taken more seriously than yours, and then you proceed to continue acting like a clown.
Stop being blind and you will realize you are the cause of the vast majority of things you complain about.
Stop being so jelly.
Also notice how I never link smash contributions to being a good or bad person?
You aren't even a troll. You are simply a clown. Someone everyone can laugh at when we see you post. Your complaint here is that my posts are taken more seriously than yours, and then you proceed to continue acting like a clown.
Stop being blind and you will realize you are the cause of the vast majority of things you complain about.
Stop being so jelly.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
the absurd thing was that you linked personality to popularity on the boards.
and you said ive done "negative contributions" to the community, despite helping to run tournaments, organizing smashfests, holding smashfests, buying tvs for tournaments, helping drive/carry tvs to tournaments (including bringing one to finland), introducing lots of new players to the scene, training them and making sure they stay hooked, etc etc.
and yes im totally jealous of you being taken seriously, since i do everything in my power to make sure flopmericans take me seriously. its not like i was waving my **** around to my haters
and you said ive done "negative contributions" to the community, despite helping to run tournaments, organizing smashfests, holding smashfests, buying tvs for tournaments, helping drive/carry tvs to tournaments (including bringing one to finland), introducing lots of new players to the scene, training them and making sure they stay hooked, etc etc.
and yes im totally jealous of you being taken seriously, since i do everything in my power to make sure flopmericans take me seriously. its not like i was waving my **** around to my haters
That's nice, dear.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
okay man ggs
Your local scene is not the community.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
its a part of it, and if im contributing to keeping the gothenburg scene alive and going it makes the overall community stronger. and i helped run beast aswell, bringing tvs etc.
if everybody did the stuff i said obviously the community would benefit and grow. cmon, that statement was just grasping at straws >.>
whatever-i dont have a beef with you, and dont feel like keeping this argument up.
If you can make the connection of your local scene being a part of the global community, then maybe you understand this next part.
None of your nonsense matters to any of us. We are all smashers. We don't care about region, nationality, etc. You actively try to divide the community by stressing that those differences are somehow significant. That is more than enough negative impact to completely overwhelm whatever positive contributions you try to make to your local scene.
I like that you are passionate about the local scene, but you should be passionate about the community as a whole as well. I don't see the reason for you being so aggressive. No one is trying to fight you.
None of your nonsense matters to any of us. We are all smashers. We don't care about region, nationality, etc. You actively try to divide the community by stressing that those differences are somehow significant. That is more than enough negative impact to completely overwhelm whatever positive contributions you try to make to your local scene.
I like that you are passionate about the local scene, but you should be passionate about the community as a whole as well. I don't see the reason for you being so aggressive. No one is trying to fight you.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
I do like the idea that eating junk food somehow makes you stupid. Pseudoscience is the second best thing you can bring to the table, Mike. Right after poorly structured, incoherent posts.
I don't like Cactuar or Haggar's response, honestly. Yes, it's hard to pin down what exactly factors into "natural talent." Obviously, people usually mean some sort of genetic or natural predisposition to being skilled at the game. I just find it peculiar that people are giving Cactuar high-fives because he points out that there is a lot of factors into what constitutes natural talent. A vague "there are too many factors, let's talk about something else," is nothing to get excited about, in my opinion.
Wobbles correctly points out that talent seems to be an overwhelming factor in being the best. In fact, "Outliers" only suggests the following rule of thumb: if you want to be one of the best in something, you must invest at least 10,000 hours into it. It does not prove the converse, i.e., that investing 10,000 hours will make you the best. Consult this post.
As to the topic's original question, I've found that people who are good at any video game tend to be good at all of them, with training. FastLikeTree is a good example of this, as I see that prodigy win at everything he picks up. However, with a popular sport (like Basketball, not so much Smash), it's a good rule of thumb that anyone good enough to win would be competing. There is this heavily media-influenced idea that there are Mr. Miyagis everywhere; these profoundly skilled masters who refuse to compete and enjoy the game for its novelty alone. But, in real life, these Miyagis don't exist, or at least don't turn up very often. Though I vaguely recall an anecdote about it happening with Chess.
I do, however, think that Melee is unpopular enough that there are probably some "hidden gems," players who would very quickly become extremely skilled, but who simply do not play the game, that could be the best, or at least be a run-in for top-player. Though I think it's fair to claim that the scene is large enough that we won't have any sort of revolutions (to the overall metagame; individual characters are still a possibility) if such a player were to join, i.e., he would not just take us all back to school. Though I hope no one calls me out on this last sentiment, as I'm not entirely sure what I mean.
I don't like Cactuar or Haggar's response, honestly. Yes, it's hard to pin down what exactly factors into "natural talent." Obviously, people usually mean some sort of genetic or natural predisposition to being skilled at the game. I just find it peculiar that people are giving Cactuar high-fives because he points out that there is a lot of factors into what constitutes natural talent. A vague "there are too many factors, let's talk about something else," is nothing to get excited about, in my opinion.
Wobbles correctly points out that talent seems to be an overwhelming factor in being the best. In fact, "Outliers" only suggests the following rule of thumb: if you want to be one of the best in something, you must invest at least 10,000 hours into it. It does not prove the converse, i.e., that investing 10,000 hours will make you the best. Consult this post.
As to the topic's original question, I've found that people who are good at any video game tend to be good at all of them, with training. FastLikeTree is a good example of this, as I see that prodigy win at everything he picks up. However, with a popular sport (like Basketball, not so much Smash), it's a good rule of thumb that anyone good enough to win would be competing. There is this heavily media-influenced idea that there are Mr. Miyagis everywhere; these profoundly skilled masters who refuse to compete and enjoy the game for its novelty alone. But, in real life, these Miyagis don't exist, or at least don't turn up very often. Though I vaguely recall an anecdote about it happening with Chess.
I do, however, think that Melee is unpopular enough that there are probably some "hidden gems," players who would very quickly become extremely skilled, but who simply do not play the game, that could be the best, or at least be a run-in for top-player. Though I think it's fair to claim that the scene is large enough that we won't have any sort of revolutions (to the overall metagame; individual characters are still a possibility) if such a player were to join, i.e., he would not just take us all back to school. Though I hope no one calls me out on this last sentiment, as I'm not entirely sure what I mean.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
im not trying to divide it, im trying to sparkle rivalries and make people more motivated to prove themselves in the international scene, by reminding them that they're nobody until they have. =)
Kal: there are several studies proving people with adhd getting better without junk food, there was a huge study on it in holland about recently. and getting rid of the adhd means that they became more intelligent within certain areas, the diagnosis is largely based (if done correctly) on intelligence and cognitive tests. theres studies that have proven that peopl with downs syndrome get better with supplements, a result of the overall poor diet of today. what I said is most certainly not pseudoscience, however what you said is an example of how terribly ignorant most americans are on food.
I really don't understand how anybody can think that food that's been deprived of it's nutritious quality and filled with chemicals that cross the blood brain barrier won't affect the brain negatively. The brain is an extremly sensitive organ, and every single nutrient deficiency disease starts out with psychiatric symptoms (wether it's one of the "classical" ones like pellagra or a modern multiple deficiency). Please do further research in this area before you make ignorant statements on it.
Kal: there are several studies proving people with adhd getting better without junk food, there was a huge study on it in holland about recently. and getting rid of the adhd means that they became more intelligent within certain areas, the diagnosis is largely based (if done correctly) on intelligence and cognitive tests. theres studies that have proven that peopl with downs syndrome get better with supplements, a result of the overall poor diet of today. what I said is most certainly not pseudoscience, however what you said is an example of how terribly ignorant most americans are on food.
I really don't understand how anybody can think that food that's been deprived of it's nutritious quality and filled with chemicals that cross the blood brain barrier won't affect the brain negatively. The brain is an extremly sensitive organ, and every single nutrient deficiency disease starts out with psychiatric symptoms (wether it's one of the "classical" ones like pellagra or a modern multiple deficiency). Please do further research in this area before you make ignorant statements on it.
So be direct.
"Armada is gonna **** PP" creates hype around Armada vs PP.
"You flopmericans are stupid because you eat so much junk food"
...
I'm not sure what that does, but it isn't sparking any rivalries...
That's like me trying to start a sweden vs america rivalry by going around and saying "Those swetards INSERT ANYTHING HERE."
Rivalry is fun. What you do is hateful. I'm not trying to be a **** to you. Just want to make sure you are aware of your behavior.
"Armada is gonna **** PP" creates hype around Armada vs PP.
"You flopmericans are stupid because you eat so much junk food"
...
I'm not sure what that does, but it isn't sparking any rivalries...
That's like me trying to start a sweden vs america rivalry by going around and saying "Those swetards INSERT ANYTHING HERE."
Rivalry is fun. What you do is hateful. I'm not trying to be a **** to you. Just want to make sure you are aware of your behavior.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
I do say stuff like Armada will **** PP. I just spice it up with säfty hate.
Just because I'm curious...
define: säfty
define: säfty
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
exact meaning is juicy. it applies to anything awesome in swedish, i dont think its ever used the same way in english.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
How about you post a link to these studies before making pompous accusations as to how "ignorant" I am on the subject? It also seems to me entirely absurd to suggest that a better diet combating ADHD somehow implies that it makes you more intelligent.
Of course, I wouldn't expect someone with the inability to form a coherent sentence to be able to differentiate between correlation and causation.
Lol k.
Sick, tight, sweet, cool, etc. Sounds like the same thing.
Sick, tight, sweet, cool, etc. Sounds like the same thing.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
yhea tight/sweet/cool is a good translation =). sweet is probably the most fitting.
Kal: http://www.npr.org/2011/03/12/134456594/study-diet-may-help-adhd-kids-more-than-drugs
if terrible food can affect the brain negatively within one area, obviously it can destroy others aswell.
if you for some reason want to deny it, i can look up the reference of studies in a book of people diagnosed with mental *********** getting (much) higher iq scores as a result of a changed diet and supplements.
Kal: http://www.npr.org/2011/03/12/134456594/study-diet-may-help-adhd-kids-more-than-drugs
if terrible food can affect the brain negatively within one area, obviously it can destroy others aswell.
if you for some reason want to deny it, i can look up the reference of studies in a book of people diagnosed with mental *********** getting (much) higher iq scores as a result of a changed diet and supplements.
Beat!
Smash Master
säfty indeed
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
If for some reason I want to deny it, as though your stance is the default position? Stay classy.
Obviously, getting the necessary supplements making you smarter is not a claim I have problems with. It's this ***-backwards claim that I am somehow stupid, rather than just fat, for eating a bag of Cheetos, or a slice of pizza. All you've done is link to an article about how diet can help combat ADHD. ADHD is not caused by stupidity, however, so you've done nothing to prove your point. A good diet is great for overall health, but that doesn't mean that we "lazy Americans" (who are so appreciative of the racial stereotyping, by the way) are stupid as a result of eating pizza.
Obviously, getting the necessary supplements making you smarter is not a claim I have problems with. It's this ***-backwards claim that I am somehow stupid, rather than just fat, for eating a bag of Cheetos, or a slice of pizza. All you've done is link to an article about how diet can help combat ADHD. ADHD is not caused by stupidity, however, so you've done nothing to prove your point. A good diet is great for overall health, but that doesn't mean that we "lazy Americans" (who are so appreciative of the racial stereotyping, by the way) are stupid as a result of eating pizza.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
but stupidity is not the cause of mental ***********? this condition also gets dramatic improvement from an improved, strict, no-junk diet.
And also, ADHD IS caused by cognitive deficits, which can be seen as *********** of certain areas of the brain, because that's what it is. A uneven intelligence curve is also a part of the diagnosis. I am diagnosed ADD/Highfunctioning autism and I had these deficits when I was younger.
I can promise you that if you get off junk food you will feel better, more clear-headed, you will be less fatigued, and you will become smarter. You should be thanking me for giving you this valuable information.
like i said, if you find it necessary I can go find the studies.
And also, ADHD IS caused by cognitive deficits, which can be seen as *********** of certain areas of the brain, because that's what it is. A uneven intelligence curve is also a part of the diagnosis. I am diagnosed ADD/Highfunctioning autism and I had these deficits when I was younger.
I can promise you that if you get off junk food you will feel better, more clear-headed, you will be less fatigued, and you will become smarter. You should be thanking me for giving you this valuable information.
like i said, if you find it necessary I can go find the studies.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
all that REALLY matters is wanting something and putting the effort in to get it. When i logged the most hours into melee my marth was really solid, and when i logged the most hours into brawl (with the mlg motivation) my MK was the most solid. When i logged the most hours into halo PC, F-zero GX, mario kart, i was at my peak in that too. When I study for tests I generally do better on those tests. When i stopped playing/doing/engaging in something for a long time i got worse at that thing. Effort is w/out question the most important factor in anything, unless you're comparing 2 people with very different intellects (someone "dumb" compared to someone "smart" could obviously be applied to problem solving abilities and would limit one person as opposed to another). It's mostly how badly you want something though, for the most part. If you aren't able to understand why certain things are good/bad or problem solve well, then you probably won't improve that much though. If you can understand everything, you won't hit any walls in skill any time soon imo.
Claire Diviner
President
It really boils down to how much a person wants it. If they want it bad enough, they can and will get it with enough dedication - raw talent or otherwise. It also depends on how interested they are in Melee. If they're naturally amazing at the game, but have no real interest in it, then they're not going to play it and show off what they're really capable of, at least that's what I can gather.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
I might want to be the best player ever and will put in "effort" to get it.
But, what should one be doing? A ton of people have no idea what they should be doing to get better. A good analogy. Suppose you play the CPU and only the CPU. You won't be the best player ever. There is a right and wrong way to doing everything.
Knowing what you should be working on to get better or knowing what your putting your effort into is probably just as important as having a drive to keep going.
But, what should one be doing? A ton of people have no idea what they should be doing to get better. A good analogy. Suppose you play the CPU and only the CPU. You won't be the best player ever. There is a right and wrong way to doing everything.
Knowing what you should be working on to get better or knowing what your putting your effort into is probably just as important as having a drive to keep going.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I entirely disagree with this, because simply put i don't DESERVE to win anymore because I am not putting forth any effort required to win. I'm unmotivated and a little ***** compared to my former, dedicated self. I ONLY play before nationals, and my skill has suffered as a result. When I put the most effort in my marth was at it's peak, and the same happened in 2010 Brawl with my MK
Mew2King
King of the Mews
btw, to become the best you can be, the best way is to simply think of every single combination you can possibly think of for <insert situation>, and then do it for every situation, and learn from your experience. When you have someone to copy it's easier since the answers are often given for you (this is happening a lot with falco because of so many top falcos compared to most other characters). If you want to be innovate and make stuff up yourself that's always fun too. Think of the best thing to do for every situation, and think why is this the best, and what are other good options I can do too. How can I best counter this situation. What is the most overall effective counter to this strategy or situation.
and have perfect tech skill by beating up level 1s
that's pretty much it, for the most part. I went way beyond that cuz I memorized all the chain grab %s, but I was limited by what I could practice and learn from the computer since I almost never played people. With what I was given (computers), I think I learned pretty fast. Most of my brawl skill back in my brawl prime was also from fighting computers (level 1 Snakes on smashville on infinite time), but that's because I already understand numbers at smash. Example - MK can space Uair and then double jump (footstool) downair if they air dodge into him. You will likely get hit by the uair, unless you air dodge through him, which the DJ Dair covers. It's a bunch of logic, but I got this from THINKING about smash a lot. Maybe most people can't do it, maybe I'm just smarter than most people, but even if that was the case I don't think it's that big of a factor compared to effort; you won't even know if you don't try your absolute hardest in something you are passionate about. I believe motivation+effort are easily the 2 most important factors into succeeding in almost anything.
and have perfect tech skill by beating up level 1s
that's pretty much it, for the most part. I went way beyond that cuz I memorized all the chain grab %s, but I was limited by what I could practice and learn from the computer since I almost never played people. With what I was given (computers), I think I learned pretty fast. Most of my brawl skill back in my brawl prime was also from fighting computers (level 1 Snakes on smashville on infinite time), but that's because I already understand numbers at smash. Example - MK can space Uair and then double jump (footstool) downair if they air dodge into him. You will likely get hit by the uair, unless you air dodge through him, which the DJ Dair covers. It's a bunch of logic, but I got this from THINKING about smash a lot. Maybe most people can't do it, maybe I'm just smarter than most people, but even if that was the case I don't think it's that big of a factor compared to effort; you won't even know if you don't try your absolute hardest in something you are passionate about. I believe motivation+effort are easily the 2 most important factors into succeeding in almost anything.