Natural Talent

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Natural talent can be a huge advantage. Anyone know about jason pierre paul? He is the perfect example of what natural talent can do.

 

[JPOBS]

M2k where do you get the stat that your reaction time is 0.23 s?

Please don't tell me its from one of those stupid internet "click button when light turns green" tests? Because if so, that's overly silly.

 

[The Star King]

Reaction time has to be the most overrated "factor" in Smash skill ever. Seriously.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, unless you're just tech chasing on raw reaction time (which is rare), reaction time isn't a huge deal. What's way more important is being able to react with the correct response. Anyone can go "OMG he jumped!", but the only way you're going to be able to properly execute an effective punish as quickly as possible is to have a lot of previous experience with the situation and know before hand what you need to do and how you need to do it.

Also, Haggar is right about flopmericans eating poorly. This guy definitely would have performed better at Apex if he had eaten properly.

 

[Sinji]

As in, the only reason why I read Hagger's series of post was because his avatar looked like an jamaican actor from the 80's lol.

 

[Bing]

Bones0, link doesnt work.

 

[Armada]

Reaction time has to be the most overrated "factor" in Smash skill ever. Seriously.

I disagree. Okay the reactions you need maybe is not way to good but once you have good kinda good reactions the games becomes so much EASIER. You have so many situations you can use reaction instead of reading/prediction. And those situations happens pretty much all the time and if you can use reactions correctly you have way better chances to get a 0-deth.

People should use it more for sure.

 

[Mew2King]

Am I allowed to agree, though ?
I've always been super-good at school because both my parents are teachers and I have an exceptional auditive memory.
Not only did it anger hard-working friends of mine who didn't achieve the same results as me when I was just playing soccer all day long, but I was asked to keep my mouth shut to let the others have the time to think by many teachers/professors. Because of this, I feel much much more personal achievement by doing stuff I suck at like music.

This is why I admire people like m2k, who just had enough willpower to get from the 'I'm nobody' status to the 'Soulless Robot' status we know him for.
(this is also why it kinda makes me sad when I see him unhappy like that. Check this out, hope it gets you all pumped up :D)

I also had straight As until 6th grade

little did I know grades don't matter

what ended up happening is i had great grades, STILL GOT NO SCHOLARSHIP, and then 5 classes never transferred. I won't get my associates until December 2013 due to the fact that game design class is split up into 4 sections and are not offered in summer. I got ****ed over hard. And my mom still owes me over 10k and I have very little money right now due to countless bad luck experiences as well as people screwing me over (such as not paying me back for various loans).

I essentially wasted a very, very large portion of my life as a result of this

Because of the bad experiences i've had, with being banned at MLG Dallas being the final straw that I could handle (for a split that never even happened, which further ****ed me over), I completely changed as a person for the worse. I haven't been happy since that day, back in ~October 2010. That was the last time I was truely happy.

I'm not saying this stuff about natural talent because of being optimistic or pessimistic, I say it because I believe it to be true. Also Armada I understand your points but I disagree with most. Maybe I'm wrong maybe you're wrong I don't know. Don't really care to discuss it much anymore cuz we've all said what we wanted to so far I think.

Btw, I never think of things in terms of limits, I think everything is limitless. That is the mindset I have and what kept me going forever in anything I do. As long as it's not incredibly boring. If I am depressed over something, that is by FAR my biggest weakness.

Ever since my MLG Dallas ban, I became depressed a LOT more. I'm sure it's become extremely obvious to everyone

 

[Bing]

M2K what happened in Dallas? You said you split with ADHD(yes?) never said why you were banned?

 

[Sinji]

M2K what happened in Dallas? You said you split with ADHD(yes?) never said why you were banned?

Because its against the rules to split the prize money.

 

[Wobbles]

Regarding reaction time and why you (M2K) probably don't have as big a problem with it as you think:

Reflex response time is proven to shrink rapidly as number of available responses decreases. The "click when you see the green light" is a very distilled form of reaction test, and doesn't usefully represent how Melee works.

1) Considering how much time you spent optimizing your decision making, I would say you probably had the most common scenarios in your practiced matchups narrowed down to a limited decision tree. If he does X then I will do Y, A then B, etc.

2) The amount of practice you invested into rehearsing those scenarios would also cut down on the decision gap between seeing X and actually acting on Y. More training in a scenario ingrains a reflex and speeds it up.

3) Your positional awareness and option restriction (the one that still makes you a dominant force in 2v2) drastically limits people's options to the point where they often make mistakes without realizing it. That awareness and restriction hasn't gone away, but it IS limited by people pushing their characters to new limits. By making it one of your strengths, you created a gameplan based around understanding the possibilities of as many characters as you could. The pro is that nobody's going to know those matchups better than you; the con is you will have to keep expanding that knowledge base with more practice and training.

So with regards to talent, I think you intelligently chose a playstyle that reflects your strength (a head for numbers/data and a capacity for processing it) and covers your weakness (hard reaction time). It's a tough one to maintain but it's also why you were so dominant.

Maybe?

 

[Bones0]

How can people believe in tier lists, but not natural talent?

 

[Mew2King]

wobbles yeah, that's exactly why i made that my style

and yeah, adhd never gave me anything. I was just being emo cuz I lost to rich and i didn't wanna play anymore that day, so i wasn't really trying vs adhd and i told him that. I didn't even know it was against the rules. Ken and Chu split with each other at one of the MLGs in 2006 (chicago I believe?) and then I got 3rd. So I kind of got ****ed over twice lol. If they never ****ed me over, I would have not been ****ed over at mlg, for a rule I didn't even know existed. That costed me 13,000 dollars (that I'm 99% sure I would have won, since that was my absolute prime in brawl, where I also had my best controller and the most practice). Tyrant/Ally/LeeMartin will back me up on this since they played with me 2 weeks before dallas. It's a shame and it entirely changed my mindset on life. Ever since that day, I've just been pessimistic and depressed when anything makes me even a little bit sad.

 

[Bones0]

I always wondered if MLG just used the whole splitting thing as an excuse to get Brawl off the circuit. It'd obviously be a lot smoother trying to get rid of a game if two of the best players just got lifetime bans. It feels so "conspiracy-theoryish," but it makes getting rid of Brawl a less menacing decision from MLG's standpoint (I'm sure plenty of people think Brawl at least partly got removed because of the whole incident), and it doubles as a good way of letting MLG show they are a legitimate organization and doesn't afraid of kicking out rule breakers.

 

[Divinokage]

wobbles yeah, that's exactly why i made that my style

and yeah, adhd never gave me anything. I was just being emo cuz I lost to rich and i didn't wanna play anymore that day, so i wasn't really trying vs adhd and i told him that. I didn't even know it was against the rules. Ken and Chu split with each other at one of the MLGs in 2006 (chicago I believe?) and then I got 3rd. So I kind of got ****ed over twice lol. If they never ****ed me over, I would have not been ****ed over at mlg, for a rule I didn't even know existed. That costed me 13,000 dollars (that I'm 99% sure I would have won, since that was my absolute prime in brawl, where I also had my best controller and the most practice). Tyrant/Ally/LeeMartin will back me up on this since they played with me 2 weeks before dallas. It's a shame and it entirely changed my mindset on life. Ever since that day, I've just been pessimistic and depressed when anything makes me even a little bit sad.

Your past doesn't make you who you are, get over it.

 

[Stylez]

How can people believe in tier lists, but not natural talent?

Many people believe the tier list has been decided upon after careful control of all variables. Of course, this isn't REALLY true looking at the number of versions put out, but the idea is it's reasonable to test.

Not many posts in here claim natural talent is a myth or something. The question is, what is its relevance? No one has even given a clear description on what natural talent refers to. Although I think someone said something about the ability to learn (for no real reason), and another posted a few misleading nutrition-related articles (which were a joke?).

Also, the idea that hard work can only get you so far is an excuse as much as natural talent is. When effort doesn't match determination, natural barriers are pretty convenient. Hard work is (surprisingly) taxing. The argument that 'more examples of hard work exist than do pros' ignores the complexity of advancement. To put it short: There's a reason the game play looked much different 10 years ago than it does today.

Anyone can do it? Possibly. Will they? No. Is it reasonable to account for effects of innate processes when so many other variables can be held liable? Not at all.

 

[-LzR-]

This thread has suddenly become so amazing.
Just what I hate the most is when I practice hours per day for weeks before a tournament and then lose to that person who was at my level in the last tourney but has only play something LoL for the time I spent practicing and stil end up losing. It's a very hard hit for my motivation, as it leads me into the mindset "Don't practice, it's not like you are ever gonna be better".

 

[Bones0]

@Stylez

None of that made any sense... I reread the very first sentence like 9 times, and I still don't get what you're even talking about. Then you state there is a reason game play looked so different 10 years ago, but failed to explain how that has anything to do with natural talent (because, well, it doesn't).

As far as the relevance of natural talent, plenty of evidence has been put forth to suggest that it matters a great deal. Bad players have played just as much as (and in many cases, much more than) good players, but are still significantly worse. Either they are all lying about how much they practice, or some people are naturally adept at the game.

 

[Massive]

Your past doesn't have to make you who you are, get over it.

Fixed. Only Kages deal in absolutes.

Fun psychology factoid, telling someone who is suffering from depression to "man up and stop being depressed" is not a real treatment, and has not ever actually worked.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

m2k is not necessarily clinically depressed, in fact i highly doubt it, although off course i cant be the judge of that. i havent heard about m2k losing appetite, having atrocious concentration, sleeping 2-3 hours a night, having psychomotor ***********/agitation, etc etc.

 

[Massive]

If I were asked to place a wager, my money would be on minor depression associated with Cognitive Dissonance.

My psychologist friends have asked me to stop wagering on their diagnoses though. Something about doctor-patient confidenti-blahblahblah and running low on 20s.

 

[Kal]

Bones, a tier list assumes that some characters are better than others. If there were a character that automatically lost when a match started, he would necessarily be lower on the tier list than a character with options. This has nothing to do with natural talent. It's possible that everyone does have the same potential, even if a tier list exists.

Obviously, that's not the case, as natural talent clearly exists. You're just trying to relate unrelated terms.

 

[Blu]

I don't quite understand what the problem is here. Sure, "natural talent" can be a good quality to have when looking to become proficient in something, but it is in no way related to the limit of one's potential. It's just a specific way your brain happens to be working that just happens to synergize well with whatever project or hobby you happen to be doing; and, in turn, it's the determining factor in how long an individual must practice or mull over something before it's fully mastered.

The fact that everyone must practice and put forth effort to better themselves in Melee suggests that dedication and hard work is what leads to success, not the "natural talent." The level of talent is simply the catalyst or inhibitor in the equation; it's up to the player, no matter how talented or untalented they are, to continue pursuing their goal.

Sure, the level of natural talent may influence their decision, and yeah, the mindset of the player may also contribute to their lack of success, but isn't it implied that one can change the way their brain thinks? This happens constantly as we age and develop as a person. It's even been proven that one can raise their IQ with the contribution of certain practices. The brain isn't set in stone.

It's up to the individual to decide how far they'll really go to reach new heights--catalysts, inhibitors, and all.

=

This is just what I've learned through my own life, but I'd love to hear other people's takes on what I've said. I thoroughly enjoy being proven wrong in the pursuit of knowledge, so please, feel free. =p

EDIT:

It's also important to note that knowing how to practice is also an important variable. This is also something certain individuals are born knowing how to do well, but is only one of the many qualities that play a part in the vague concept known as "natural talent."

 

[Bing]

m2k is not necessarily clinically depressed, in fact i highly doubt it, although off course i cant be the judge of that. i havent heard about m2k losing appetite, having atrocious concentration, sleeping 2-3 hours a night, having psychomotor ***********/agitation, etc etc.

Are you seriously trying to say that because you have never read on a forum that a man doesnt suffer from these things that means he does not have depression?

The ignorance like honestly.

If I were asked to place a wager, my money would be on minor depression associated with Cognitive Dissonance.

My psychologist friends have asked me to stop wagering on their diagnoses though. Something about doctor-patient confidenti-blahblahblah and running low on 20s.

Honestly a mild form of depression could be a possiblity. Combined with the aspergers, that would explain the focus that Mike was trying to use an excuse to say that he doesnt have any form of depression

 

[Bones0]

Bones, a tier list assumes that some characters are better than others. If there were a character that automatically lost when a match started, he would necessarily be lower on the tier list than a character with options. This has nothing to do with natural talent. It's possible that everyone does have the same potential, even if a tier list exists.

Obviously, that's not the case, as natural talent clearly exists. You're just trying to relate unrelated terms.

I never said they were related. I just think the mentality and understanding behind a tier can just as easily be applied to people. People look at the differences between Fox and Bowser and compare how useful their abilities are when it comes to winning games. Fox is faster in almost every aspect, and it makes it very clear that he is a better character. Can a Bowser player outplay a Fox player? Absolutely, but if both players are at the top level and about the same skill level, the Fox player has a huge advantage just by being Fox.

If you have a Player A (coordinated, confident under pressure, fast reaction times), they can be compared to a Player B (uncoordinated, chokes under pressure, sluggish reaction times) in much the same way. Player B might even be superior than Player A in some aspects (Bowser's getup attack from the ledge is better than Fox's). That doesn't mean that Player B can always expect to have an equal chance of winning. A's natural abilities simply make it easier for him to win than B's abilities, and if you assume both players practice equal amounts (not even considering that A could be also better at practicing than B), then A will always be the better player. B might even be more determined to practice and more capable of it than A, but if A just picks up on things fast enough it doesn't matter how well B prepares because A will just have so many advantages with significantly less practice.

I think people in general underrate how important a general understanding of the game is. Intuitively knowing how much stun an opponent is in, knowing what trajectory they will take, being able to catch onto DI/tech patterns, etc. These are all abstract things that you can't really teach except through experience. I think it's really obvious, especially with knowing hitstun. I see newer players going for things they couldn't possibly land because they just couldn't tell how long I would be stunned for. I also see them underestimate my stun and opt out of taking a free hit. Some players catch onto these things naturally, and within a year they will already understand the dynamics of the combo game better than another player who's been playing for years.

 

[Sinji]

Your past doesn't make you who you are, get over it.

I agree. M2k you have gotten much better since 2006. I remember watching you vs Chillen in friendly's on the first day of Apex 2012 and I saw some new tricks from your fox. Stuff that other foxes has never done yet. It's just that the metagame has evolved drastically over the years that people all over the world has become solid in their game play and become solid in a short period of time. Daily research in frame data, different combos, spacing, matchups e.t.c. Its pioneers like you that set a foundation for us.

 

[Divinokage]

Fixed. Only Kages deal in absolutes.

Fun psychology factoid, telling someone who is suffering from depression to "man up and stop being depressed" is not a real treatment, and has not ever actually worked.

Well when you give yourself the choice of a future the next day then you won't need to deal with your problems right now and you'll just stay depressed because it doesn't really need to be changed, you won't really feel that need to do it. It should be an absolute either you are depressed or you are happy, the circumstances regarding that doesnt matter, you are doing it to yourself regardless. That mind of ours easily plays tricks on us and can hold it's grip on you for eternity if you aren't careful. When you dwell on something too long then chances are that problem will start to make you crazy.

 

[Kal]

I see your point, Bones. Hopefully you can see how this

How can people believe in tier lists, but not natural talent?

with no exposition as to what you really mean, can cause me to think you are relating the concepts. Since, you know, you're relating them in the sentence.

Regardless, the opinion many people have is that these personal traits you're listing (such as coordination and reaction time) can be improved upon or compensated for, whereas a character's traits are static. Natural talent refers more to the idea that people have a sort of "maximum skill level" they can each reach, individually. It's possible to believe such a thing does not exist (or at least that the maximum possible skill level is the same for all people), while still believing in a tier list, exactly because people are able to change, but the characters are static and unchanging.

 

[Bones0]

Oh yeah, I get what you're saying. I guess it would have made more sense to say "understand" instead of "believe."

 

[JPOBS]

Your past doesn't make you who you are, get over it.

LOL kage you need to stop with the Mr. Miyagi horse****.

What you might want to say is "your past doesn't have to determine your future." Which is fine.
But telling people "your past doesn't make you who you are" is the so blatantly untruthful that words fail to describe in full how dumb that is.

On another note, Mew2king, you have no one to blame for losing out on that money but yourself. You "didn't know the rule existed" ? WTF? There are thousands of dollars on the line, you better goddamn know what's going on.

 

[Bones0]

Or just not broadcast that you are splitting tourney money with your friend who had a better shot of winning than you. >_>

 

[Divinokage]

LOL kage you need to stop with the Mr. Miyagi horse****.

What you might want to say is "your past doesn't have to determine your future." Which is fine.
But telling people "your past doesn't make you who you are" is the so blatantly untruthful that words fail to describe in full how dumb that is.

On another note, Mew2king, you have no one to blame for losing out on that money but yourself. You "didn't know the rule existed" ? WTF? There are thousands of dollars on the line, you better goddamn know what's going on.

Who you are right now is what you do right now. If you go against whatever code you put on yourself then you aren't being the person you are supposed to. That's all there is. I understand that you'll be influenced differently in your actions depending on what happened to you in your life but I think it's important to disassociate yourself with that to not let yourself be held back by your life's conditioning. There, better? You can obviously use the good and the bad things that happened to you in order to make yourself better, that's pretty much my point. I know I tend to write one-liners, but I think it's good to make people think a little bit at least and not say it's BS right away.

 

[JPOBS]

Sure. The past doesn't affect the future in most cases I'd agree with that. But I'd add it's also not as easy as just waking up and doing something out of character. It takes a lot of will/motivation for people to change who they are. It isn't impossible, but its damn hard. And that's why theres hundreds of programs for dealing with depression/anxiety/other stuff, because these are serious issues and not easily fixed.

Scumbag brain: knows it's depressed, does nothing to fix itself.

 

[Divinokage]

Sure. The past doesn't affect the future in most cases I'd agree with that. But I'd add it's also not as easy as just waking up and doing something out of character. It takes a lot of will/motivation for people to change who they are. It isn't impossible, but its damn hard. And that's why theres hundreds of programs for dealing with depression/anxiety/other stuff, because these are serious issues and not easily fixed.

Scumbag brain: knows it's depressed, does nothing to fix itself.

Well.. I think all you really need to change that way is have a goal worth fighting for.. love is the most powerful feeling, it can melt away all these problems and you can feel elevated most of the time. It allows you to go through any pain to achieve what you want. It's true that it might require a lot of training to change that way of course, nothing is ever easy.. if it was then everyone would be champions right now.. you wouldn't be able to differentiate if what you are doing is hard or not. I was also that way too, just lost in my bubble feeling empty.. don't think I'm on a high horse or anything, i'm just trying to speak from experience to help give a different perspective even if it sounds just THAT easy.. it's not for sure.

So what that said, it's really important to pay attention to the little details and be conscious of your actions. That way, you can stop yourself from thinking negatively if you ever catch yourself doing it.. you'll be able to for example sit alone with your thoughts and try to think of a better gameplan for yourself. Anything requires training to be good at it even enjoying the moment, breathing, walking, thoughts.. whatever it is you can always refine your ways. Change does take time though sometimes it can be instantly when you realize stuff.

 

[Bones0]

Scumbag brain: knows it's depressed, does nothing to fix itself.

Is that from something, or did you just make it up?

 

[Kal]

Here you go.

Eh, in case it's not obvious from the article, Scumbag Brain is a derivative of Scumbag Steve.

 

[Divinokage]

Well perhaps a little objectivity usually helped me to see the light of things a lot better. When I was feeling down and then I thought: "Why am I like this? Why am I doing this to myself? Why should I continue to suffer? Why am I not following my goals? etc... etc." Then when I answered those, I already started to feel a little better. It's a good thing to follow I think, just don't dwell on your pain pretty much because then you'll think like: "I'm such a failure, I can't do anything" for example because you always CAN change and there's always a choice.. life moves forward, not at a standstill or backwards. I mean if you want to sit here and continue to suffer uselessly.. well there's nothing much I can do, I'm not saying anyone is right now, just saying this in general.

 

[Sinji]

Well perhaps a little objectivity usually helped me to see the light of things a lot better. When I was feeling down and then I thought: "Why am I like this? Why am I doing this to myself? Why should I continue to suffer? Why am I not following my goals? etc... etc." Then when I answered those, I already started to feel a little better. It's a good thing to follow I think, just don't dwell on your pain pretty much because then you'll think like: "I'm such a failure, I can't do anything" for example because you always CAN change and there's always a choice.. life moves forward, not at a standstill or backwards. I mean if you want to sit here and continue to suffer uselessly.. well there's nothing much I can do, I'm not saying anyone is right now, just saying this in general.

I agree with you

I think the same way at times in smash and life. I try not to hesitate on an issue and react to it pretty much. I been through a phase in my life when Iv'e been disliked by both my peers in smash and other people in life (this was back in 2010 BTW). I often times dwell on the issues and stress my self out (hard to believe I haven't gone crazy yet) but then in 2011 I decided to think about the positives and the reinforce positives to get rid of negatives. And I'm doing a pretty good job at it.

 

[Stylez]

Bones, sorry for the oddly-worded post/reply

I mentioned "the tier list has been decided upon after careful control of all variables," meaning controlled for variables such as player skill. All that is left to explain why Skeik performs better in tournies than Yoshi is something inherent to Sheik. Hence the tier list.
But we can't control for these variables between most, if any, players. There are just WAY too many factors that could explain why a couple years of practice worked for M2K, but not others
Because of this, I asked what the relevance of natural talent is.

My statement that "There's a reason the game play looked much different 10 years ago than it does today" was referring to how game-play advances and players do alongside it. Many mid-level players of today were probably mid to low level back in the day. These mid-level players today would have no problem beating the top players in 2003. They have not become more naturally talented, the game has simply advanced.

 

[stelzig]

My statement that "There's a reason the game play looked much different 10 years ago than it does today" was referring to how game-play advances and players do alongside it. Many mid-level players of today were probably mid to low level back in the day. These mid-level players today would have no problem beating the top players in 2003. They have not become more naturally talented, the game has simply advanced.

I'd argue that most of these 2003 players would most likely adapt and even pick up all of these strategies and tricks you brought back in time very quickly. And then you'd lose again and only have helped the metagame advance further. 2003 may be a little far back to go for this, but let's say 2006 or something then. There may be some really good new school players where this wouldn't be the case, but there's definitely alot of current players that would still lose.

Not to mention that I think alot of people are also already underestimating the skill level of old-school players.

Edit: And even if it did take some time to pick up, then it doesn't really prove anything. Obviously experience and "hard work" still matters and these 2003 players would be faced with both of these factors at a level they have not had an opportunity to use. The abbility to improve isn't exclusive for a world where natural talent and different levels of potential doesn't exist.

It may indeed also be that some great old school players just won't be good in the modern metagame because the things they were good at, are no longer as important and they may not have much "natural talent" in some of the new areas - i'd still argue that most of them would do quite decently though.