Nair Tactics

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Hiya everybody, SOLID here.


OK, for those of you that don't know, or perhaps know and don't care, Nair is my favorite move.

It's really good for gimping, it can kill, it has good range, and it does 18% damage when both hits are tipped.

I'm here to tell all of you Marth Board go-ers some handy things to use Nair for.

Here we go:




GIMPING:


Nair is Marth's best aerial killer off the side when tipped, and that helps off the stage when you are closer to the boundaries. It outlasts airdodges, and then hit opponents during the lab of the end of the airdodge, or cooldown for damage when they aren't expecting it. All your opponent can reallt do to avoid this is DI away, and if you bait that and then Nair as they are DI'ing away, that can kill them as well. Mix it up with Fair and Nair offstage, and throw in some Bair to throw off enemies as well.




SUBSTITUTION:


Bair Substitution: When going for a gimp, or just during a match, and you are in the air facing away from your opponent, your opponent will most likely expect a Bair, right? They can then just airdodge your Bair and land safely, and then attack you. If you use Nair, you'll notice that the back-swings on both hits hit on a diagonal up and away from Marth's head (at about a 10 on a clock if Marth's head is the middle). This also happens to be the same general direction as your Bair hits, and if you substitute Nair for Bair after you've gotten your opponent into the habit of airdodging your Bairs, then you can hit them after their airdodge finishes, as I stated in the gimping section.




Fair Substitution: This is the same general idea as the section above, except you substitute your Nair for a Fair instead of a Bair. If you are playing an opponent that likes to Airdodge (when in the air obviously) or spotdodge (when on the ground obviously) your Fairs, then substituting Nair for Fair works like a charm. Just use lots of Fairs against this opponent (as you should be no mater who you are playing) and if they like to spotdodge or airdodge your Fairs, then just throw in some Nairs to get some damage and possibly kill the opponent at high percentages. (NOTE: I'm pretty sure some characters may be able to spotdodge your whole Nair [like ROB possibly] but I'm not sure, if someone could test that then you'd have my thanks, but my Wii is currently dysfunctional so I can't.) NOTE: Nair isn't that great for approaches, and if you are mixing it up with Fairs and Nairs, you should probably retreat most of your Nairs, they're better that wat since you can avoid getting shieldgrabbed if your opponent starts shielding your Nairs. A good thing with retreating them is that you can hit a shield, weaken it, DI away, and still be a safe distance away to not get punished/shield-grabbed too easily.







MK Grab Release:


OK, as some of you probably already know, if you are often active here that is, Marth can use an air release->to tipper Fair on a Meta Knight, and it will tip if you use it at the right time, with the right spacing. It was recently confirmed that you can tip a Nair after this grab release as well, which is very helpful. MK is a light character, and a tipped Nair can spell death near the edge at ~115%. To be more accurate, tipper Nair can kill MK in the CENTER of stages at around 115%. At the edge you're looking at anywhere from 85-100% (that's if you hit with the 19th frame). This is very helpful in the matchup, and can be implemented any time after you shield-grab MK (or just regular grab him) during the match. This is a great kill set up at higher percents, and can help out Marth a lot in the matchup.







Ledge Get Up Possibilities:


Unfortunately, Marth is pretty darn horrible while on the ledge. A couple months ago, Steel2nd posted a thread about Marth's ledge options, found here discussing your options as Marth on the Ledge. I want to go into some detail about one of the things he listed, using Nair. This involves dropping form the ledge, jumping, using Nair, and DI'ing back onto the stage. You cannot overuse this option, or you'll get shield grabbed. That being said, even if the first hit gets shielded, you have the ability to DI back on the ledge, after weakening your opponent's shield first, but be careful to DI back safely and not get punished for it. If you use it sparingly, it can be very good. It can obviously do damage, but if it isn't shielded, it can also push the opponent back far enough for you to be able to get back on safely. Do not overuse this option from the ledge, but it's there when you need it.





FRAME DATA: (Thanks Steel!)

ADVANTAGE FORMULA: SHIELDSTUN + HIT - SHIELDHITLAG - END (or IASA)

Nair:

Hit: 6, 15, 17 (behind), 19
End: 48
First Hit Shield Stun: 6
~Shield Hit Lag: 3
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
First Hit Tipper Shield Stun: 9
~Shield Hit Lag: 8
ADVANTAGE: (SHFF): -6
First Hit Regular Stun: 25
~Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): +14
First Hit Regular Tipper Stun: 34
~Hit Lag: 8
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): +19
Strong Hit Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE: -27
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
Strong Hit Tipper Shield Stun: 12
~Shield Hit Lag: 12
ADVANTAGE: -33
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -8
SHFF Nair Lag: 8
First hit nair lag: 8
SH Nair Fast Falled Lag: 3


Thanks for posting people, and thank you Steel for your ledge options thread and frame data!

Big thanks to Shaya for kill %'s!



Feel free to discuss or post your own Nair tactics/mindgames, or revise mine, and I'll add your posts in here.



:bandit:

 

[Darxmarth23]

Good, good.

lulz. reserve post if needed.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

OK Darxmarth, and thanks.

 

[Darxmarth23]

OK Darxmarth, and thanks.

No problem man, n-air is my favorite move too.

Personally, when it tips it looks really cool.

especially when the opponent is sent flying off the stage.

 

[ZHMT]

Nice post Solid.

Nair is like...Marth's only kill move that can be somewhat safe. Its actually very safe on larger characters. Tipped Nair *****, seriously. It can be used offensively and defensively. Nair is too good.

Plus nice sig Solid, is that a Celtic Guardian? (not sure really)

 

[Freezewish]

Nair is indeed a great move(and personal favorite). Its not difficult to tip, auto-cancels,and punishes air dodges which make it a great luxury for marth to have.

You can add that first hit of nair can combo into a grab or DS.

If i think of anything else i'll edit my post.

 

[Remzi]

Plus nice sig Solid, is that a Celtic Guardian? (not sure really)

I think thats an FE character from a game I've never played.

Also nice thread SOLID, nair *****.

 

[feardragon64]

Good stuff solid. Just a few things to think about.
Grab release? Frame advantages? When to use when considering move decay? Using nair for ledge get ups?

And for the hell of it you might as well pull Steel's frame data(and credit him) since you're talking about it.

But good stuff.

 

[cman]

WHOA WHOA WHOA! Outlasts airdodges?? Really?

 

[Freezewish]

WHOA WHOA WHOA! Outlasts airdodges?? Really?

A poorly timed air-dodge will result in you getting hit by the second hit of marth's nair.
Thats what i meant by punish.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's nair hits four times in 19 frames. 6, 13, 15, 19 I believe.

Most air dodges are around 20-25 frames. It is definitely a viable anti air dodge trick. It's why I use it to finish off juggles to send opponents off the edge so they have to recover high again :D they try to fast fall past me with an air dodge and I pull out a nair at the same time and they're screwed.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I think thats an FE character from a game I've never played.

Also nice thread SOLID, nair *****.

You're correct sir, it's Nephenee form FEoR and FE:RD.

Nice post Solid.

Nair is like...Marth's only kill move that can be somewhat safe. Its actually very safe on larger characters. Tipped Nair *****, seriously. It can be used offensively and defensively. Nair is too good.

Plus nice sig Solid, is that a Celtic Guardian? (not sure really)

Yeah, that's why it's so beastly.

Good stuff solid. Just a few things to think about.
Grab release? Frame advantages? When to use when considering move decay? Using nair for ledge get ups?

And for the hell of it you might as well pull Steel's frame data(and credit him) since you're talking about it.

But good stuff.

Thanks, and I think I will put some of that stuff in, like Grab Release and I completely forgot the ledge stuff, I even use that and I didn't put it in...

I can put in Steel's Frame stuff too.

Marth's nair hits four times in 19 frames. 6, 13, 15, 19 I believe.

Most air dodges are around 20-25 frames. It is definitely a viable anti air dodge trick. It's why I use it to finish off juggles to send opponents off the edge so they have to recover high again :D they try to fast fall past me with an air dodge and I pull out a nair at the same time and they're screwed.

Thanks for the data Shaya!


Overall, glad you guys like it, and I'll add more stuff, thanks for your help!

 

[Tennet]

Good to know, this is the one move i need to add to my game the most >.> i love my fairs too much...

 

[Shaya]

Also tipper nair can kill MK in the CENTRE of stages at around 115%. At the edge you're looking at anywhere from 85-100% (that's if you hit with the 19th frame).

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Thanks Shaya, I'll add this. I need to put you in credits!

 

[handsockpuppet]

I use nair more as a damager then a gimper, killer, or substitute, and as a damager, but good stuff \(^-^)/

 

[feardragon64]

Imo for the nair from the edge, if the first hit gets shielded(i.e. you're spacing properly or they're far enough that you could have just used a normal get up without being punished) it's still safe. You have the aerial momentum to move back to the edge without getting punished as the second hit covers your tracks. That's like the beauty of it imo.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I can add that Fear.

 

[∫unk]

So what part of this thread is the mindgames? The part where it makes it seem like useful information is coming?

Seriously substitution is a bad idea. n-air has it's own purpose. It ***** in certain matchups and certain situations.

 

[illinialex24]

Nice, this is pretty awesome. Good job.

 

[VietGeek]

I have to agree with Junk.

The only part close to a mindgame is the part where you forgot to say you need to buffer a dash in your grab release animation to Nair for it to work.

That being said mindgame is such a misused term I feel we have lost its true definition.

And substitution naturally has its own place and situations. You would maybe only use Nair as an approach on taller characters, or Nair to ledgeguard a GnW that has to recovery high while you hug the ledge and maybe you'll get some early kill. But really it is up to the user to know when to use what in which situation. You can't exactly teach judgment skills.

Don't get me wrong though, I do appreciate your effort to contribute. Rarely do I ever contribute back to the Marth boards.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

So what part of this thread is the mindgames? The part where it makes it seem like useful information is coming?

Seriously substitution is a bad idea. n-air has it's own purpose. It ***** in certain matchups and certain situations.

You see, I appreciate constructive criticism (like what Viet said), but that's just unnecessary. If you don't like a thread of mine (which you've made very clear) There's really no point in just ripping on it. If you want to help me make it better that's fine. Increasing your post count by insulting my thread is known as SPAM.

That is all.

 

[∫unk]

No need to get butthurt. I just assumed you were smart and could figure out what I meant but I'll be more direct now.

You misuse the term mindgames. You say n-air can be used to substitute. That's called mixing it up and it's a relatively safe mixup if you're retreating with it but your thread indirectly describes approaching with n-air which isn't very good.

You also don't mention what n-air is actually good for on stage and on the ledge. You don't need to go forward every time with n-air if you know they're going to shield just n-air then go back to the ledge it'll weaken the shield. The opponent's shield level is a huge part of what are the viable options for marth.

Honestly you should just consult Steel or anyone else on AIM before you go ahead and post this kind of stuff. We're holding a lot of information that we don't feel like typing out cause of various reasons.

 

[Desire]

^ Just take out the word 'mindgame' SOLID. If you want a peaceful thread, that is. :/

 

[Hype]

just thought id mention that Nair does 18% when both hits are tipped.

 

[Mazaloth]

Another good aspect is that Nair's second strike in back is higher then the forward one, this is good because it catches a lot of people of guard when coming back to the ledge.

I usually jump backwards and execute my Nair, and hit them with the higher end of the attack.

 

[feardragon64]

No need to get butthurt. I just assumed you were smart and could figure out what I meant but I'll be more direct now.

You misuse the term mindgames. You say n-air can be used to substitute. That's called mixing it up and it's a relatively safe mixup if you're retreating with it but your thread indirectly describes approaching with n-air which isn't very good.

You also don't mention what n-air is actually good for on stage and on the ledge. You don't need to go forward every time with n-air if you know they're going to shield just n-air then go back to the ledge it'll weaken the shield. The opponent's shield level is a huge part of what are the viable options for marth.

Solid, he's right about the term "mindgames." Don't feel too bad about it since it's a highly overused and abused term on smashboards. But still, junk is right, and I don't think he was trying to be that rude about it =\.

Honestly you should just consult Steel or anyone else on AIM before you go ahead and post this kind of stuff. We're holding a lot of information that we don't feel like typing out cause of various reasons.

Minus the we're too lazy to type stuff out and we haven't "completed" a set of information, one of the things mbr agreed on(before I got asked to join) was not to withhold information. Not saying we're doing that without a decent reason right now, but just something to keep in mind when we come to our conclusions about stuff.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

One thing that can sometimes be useful with nair at low percents, is after hitting someone with a fair while offstage, hitting them with a nair directly afterward can send them launch them almost completely horizontally.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

No need to get butthurt. I just assumed you were smart and could figure out what I meant but I'll be more direct now.

You misuse the term mindgames. You say n-air can be used to substitute. That's called mixing it up and it's a relatively safe mixup if you're retreating with it but your thread indirectly describes approaching with n-air which isn't very good.

You also don't mention what n-air is actually good for on stage and on the ledge. You don't need to go forward every time with n-air if you know they're going to shield just n-air then go back to the ledge it'll weaken the shield. The opponent's shield level is a huge part of what are the viable options for marth.

Honestly you should just consult Steel or anyone else on AIM before you go ahead and post this kind of stuff. We're holding a lot of information that we don't feel like typing out cause of various reasons.

Ok. I'll change the title to like "Nair Tactics" or something to avoid confusion.

I put in the "go back onto the ledge after hitting shield" thing.


I'll put in the retreating stuff.



I didn't mean to get pissy wit you (even though I did, lol) but I just get PO'ed cuz you like always insult me and what I say. Like I said, I appreciate constructive criticism as I feel that that is the only way one can get better in life in general. Thanks for clarifying.

And even here, I didn't miss the stupid reference in your post.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Well, if you play a marth who has a very...wierd play style the n"nair mindgames" is acctually a suitable title for this thread.

I like this thread a lot. Mind games are huge with me.

 

[Megavitamins]

Whoa... marth can grab release mk into 2nd hit tipper nair? wow, I def gotta master that, thats mad helpful.

 

[Arty]

Plus Nair gimps the hell out of Falco and Fox

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

This makes a lot of sense. It's oh so true that when you're off the edge, your Nair will go right through an air dodge on the second hit. Nair isn't used enough by some marts. Although Uair to Utilt is good, somethings Nair can be even better when tipped. Very good read.

 

[IDK]

Nice thread solid. Useful for newbies.

 

[BacklashMarth]

This makes a lot of sense. It's oh so true that when you're off the edge, your Nair will go right through an air dodge on the second hit. Nair isn't used enough by some marts. Although Uair to Utilt is good, somethings Nair can be even better when tipped. Very good read.

Yes, Wal-Mart and K-mart can definetly benefit from more use of Nair.

On a more serious note, doing grab release nair is pretty **** difficult. Will someone please explain a reliable way to do this?

 

[VietGeek]

On a more serious note, doing grab release nair is pretty **** difficult. Will someone please explain a reliable way to do this?

 

[phi1ny3]

Nair is so sexy. Kills, two hit, large range, and works well as killer/anti AD.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Um.........

 

[Fitty]

yea air is a good move for marth and ***** on stages like battlefied and pokemon stadium

 

[jayboi221]

i agree with fityy air are very good for marth on battlefield