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If it stalls long enough for their invincibility to run out then it doesn't matter does it.
Jigglypuff is faster in the air, that's why.
Opinions are funny...like for example...people bringing up Pit and Zelda having a so called easy time gimping Ness (Pit's is easier) and then putting that all into one rank...fun fact...those are only 2/39 characters...and Ness gimps both of them easily as well...hell he gimps Mario as much as Mario can gimp him...the truth is...for how "easy" Ness is to gimp for certain characters...there seems to be a trade off with Ness when it comes to gimping them as as well...
I suppose you have a point. There are alot of idiot Ness players.
But for every idiot Ness player, we have 2 idiot ANY player. 
Half of the cast can gimp him.
Lucas has nothing to do with Ness' recovery position.
You can, if you hit him he loses his second jump.
????
Same can be said of like everyone else in the roster, from Lucario to Fox to Wario if knocked out of his bike.
Not necessarily yoshi
. but yeah that was a weak argument against ness...very weak.
Yeah and?
We're talking about Ness being so called bad because he has a “gimp able” recovery (because no one else can be read like a book on this list right?) well...I'm pointing out that Ness can gimp just as well as be gimped...on the same people...
Yes...if you do it while he is using the 2nd jump...but lets look at that shall we...lets look at 3 things for defense Ness has to cover his *** while coming back to the stage...
In my spare time I ended up wanting to collect some data on the recoveries in this game (as well as other things) I’m done with the final say on everything for the Vertical part…however I still have to do horizontal (I keep changing the test…however I like the new test now)
I see vertical recovery as just as important as horizontal recovery ok...Peach has the worse one in the game overall
The true range on Ike's lies to the eye...
True. Marth has better air speed and a slower fall speed, making him floatier. Regarding the invincibility frames, they are very useful, but I wouldn't discredit the Super Armor on Aether either. I find the latter more useful as it lasts for quite a bit longer than the former. I've been knocked out of Dolphin Slash before, whereas that doesn't happen with Aether in most cases. And Aether is easier to aim on to the ledge/stage. With Marth, the move is so fast that sometimes he gets caught under the ledge. It's happened more times than I can count, during the excitement of the moment and all.
Overall, they're both pretty easy to gimp though. A simple, well-timed edge-hug should stop both. It's slightly more tricky with Aether, as I find the prolonged frames of Ike's sword spinning in the air quite annoying. It makes edgehogging more difficult.
It has afterlag. Oh, you stalled with it. If I can fall fast enough or just have big hitboxes on my aerials, I can just drop down and kick your ***.
How did I ever miss this gem? Pit easily gimps Zelda's recovery? Pray tell, how?
So Lucas and Ness can both gimp each others' recoveries. Wow, shocking.
The truth of the matter is, no one ever claimed that. In fact, I have on many occasions specifically said "No one is saying Ness will always get gimped! We're just saying there are a variety of ways of gimping his recoveries, ways that do not exist for most other peoples' since they work differently!"
O RLY? Projectile spammers and people with great aerial mobility and/or big hitboxes and high priority disagree.
Yes, and? No one's downplaying it because no one brought it up when talking about gimping him.
Yes, but many have Up B that are harder to gimp. Assuming his 2nd jump is gone, he'll have to rely on PKT2 and voila, gimping opportunities.
Quick Draw is ridiculously easy to edgehog and you can even his jump out and take the hit and let him fall to his doom. Also, Ike is a fastfaller. Marth isn't.
You'd risk getting stage spiked, which is more than likely since when Marth usually stalls, they're quite a vertical distance away from the stage, which gives Marth enough time for the Up-B.
DI? Tech? DI + Tech? It's not you'd be surprised by the Up B. You'd know it was coming. Marth is also not magically invincible during Up B ledgehop an attack, like, say, a Meteor Smash and see if he Up Bs into it.
That doesn't make a difference because everyone else above him have better attrubutes then he has.
Pray tell, what is it that makes Ness so special while he still has his 2nd jump that he's so much harder to gimp than everyone else above him?
The way I see it, Quick Draw is only useful if you use it from really high up to return on stage. It usually works since the opponent cannot gimp it by jumping in front of it. Also, I believe Ike has the 19th fastest falling speed so he's not exactly a fastfaller. About medium I would say. Marth just falls really slowly, like about 10th slowest in the whole roster.
Yeah, I know. I was just too lazy to say "He falls much faster than Marth". He falls relatively fast. And his Up B is almost entirely vertical. Marth's gains horizontal distance as well.
Please read it right...I said Ness gimps both of their recoveries well...not Pit easily gimps Zelda' recovery...
When it comes to the point where one of them has to use thunder they can...but up until then...
Right...because Ness' thunder works differently that makes him easy...but until that part he isn't really that easy to gimp...his recovery move may have some issues...but a lot of other characters have issues with their recovery moves...it isn't just Ness...
Really the fun thing about that is...Ness has a projectile, pretty good aerial mobility, and good hitboxes for his airs as well...oh he could just get passed all of that using his double jump with an air dodge
Except PK thunder is really just one part of his recovery…this thread is dealing with “recovery” in that you have to deal with everything the character has…I’m aware of the limits for PK thunder…however I don’t think that is equal to a D rank just because of that when the other ½ of his recovery is very good…
Actually I gave the info for this thread just early on somewhere…but if you want to see the testing ground I used to get it I’ll show you…
Again you read the post wrong…I just gave the raw stats for one of the level 1 recovery tests I used…I’m aware that Marth is much better then Ike ok…I even said that…notice how I was countering a guy who said Ike and Marth should be the same for when I gave info on them?
I mistyped. I meant to ask:
And I never said Ness was easily gimped while he still had his 2nd jump. We were arguing whether or not PKT1 was easily gimped. I said "Yes" and presented evidence for that.
Again, I never said anything else.
His projectile (PK Fire, I'm assuming) lags so he can't always use it. You can't aim it either. And Ness is not the best anti-edgeguarder. There are people whose aerials and projectiles can go through his defenses.
I'm dissecting a part of his recovery. But that was what was on the table originally. I've since almost only covered Ness' PKT, nothing else.
Yes, he's got options, wheee. But each option is gimpable. He's not some kind of he-man who's really hard to edgeguard. He's just not super-easy to gimp. Very few characters are.
You said a lot of stuff, I replied to it. Doesn't matter who you were replying to if what I was replying to was said by you.
clinton made it sound like he was. Zelda's Up B is not the best in the game, no. But she's not easily gimped or whatever and Ness isn't randomly more adept at it than others.
I call bull**** for obvious reasons.
It's relevent to the argument because the OP brought it up. Over.
Well, it counts to how well the people he can gimp should place. I still call BS on Zelda being easily gimped by Ness. clinton?
