My Recovery tier list.

[Chis]

For you people who think it's easy to gimp Ness, I'll lol so hard if you can't.

1)Ness uses PK thunder!
2)I jump into the PK thunder.
3)???
4)Failure...

Or,

1)Ness travels in a preditable path after being hit by PK thunder
2)Link waits and used Dair
3)???
4)Failure...

 

[Gaussis]

I'm telling you. People like you are always the ones who fall for it...

Not saying that you are gullible or anything. It's the mentality that causes people to fail hard.

 

[_clinton]

1)Ness uses PK thunder!
2)I jump into the PK thunder.
3)???
4)Failure...

I still like how people act like jumping into a move that can kill you at 30% or less sometime is a smart thing...anyway...here are some stats on it again...

Distance
Greater vertically then Ness' 2nd jump by a fair amount
Almost a tie Horizontally (although it goes further)
While in Free Fall your air stats don't change at all
Can have lagless landings if used right
Has a great ledgesnap...also the entire move (as long as PK Thunder isn't free) is good at pulling onto the ledge
The distance can be cut short from projectiles, or some soild object with a hit box...or if the head of the thunder gets hit the move will end...not the tail...the head...you know...the thing that only makes up 1/8 of the thunder
When it hits something you have an unblockable attack after for as long as it lasts
When it starts...nothing gets through it...
It can climb walls...bounce off of walls...and be aimed in any direction that you want...
The time needed to use it can range from less then a second and more...

 

[Yuna]

I'm telling you. People like you are always the ones who fall for it...

Not saying that you are gullible or anything. It's the mentality that causes people to fail hard.

Excuse me while I Din's Fire your PK Thunder.

 

[Undrdog]

Yeah characters with controlled projectiles have a very easy time with Ness and Lucas' recovery. I don't have too much experience with just jumping into PK Thunder. Pit is able to Wing Renewal himself into the PK Thunder; Arrow the PK Thunder; and Mirror Shield both the PK Thunder and the resulting projectile child. ^_^

Sorry I had to say it. =P

 

[Chis]

I'm telling you. People like you are always the ones who fall for it...

Not saying that you are gullible or anything. It's the mentality that causes people to fail hard.

I don't care if you main him, his recovery is not better then Metaknight's


Rank S
Metaknight
Rob
Jigglypuff


Rank A
Kirby
Sonic
Wario
Game and Watch
Pit
Pikachu
Lucas



Rank B
King DDD
Luigi
Lucario
ZSS
Toon Link
Fox
Diddy Kong
Samus


Rank C
Snake
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Princess Peach
Charizard
Sheik
Marth
DK
Captain Falcon



Rank D
Mario
Yoshi
Squirtle
Falco
Wolf
Ness
Ike

Rank E
Bowser
Link
Ivysaur
Olimar
Ganondorf
Solo climber
Nolimar


One or two changes again, what do YOU think?

Stop flamming and more explaining!

 

[_clinton]

Excuse me while I Din's Fire your PK Thunder.

Be careful man...you might end up hitting Ness or Lucas instead...

Oh and Wolf is better then Falco ok...

Yeah characters with controlled projectiles have a very easy time with Ness and Lucas' recovery. I don't have too much experience with just jumping into PK Thunder. Pit is able to Wing Renewal himself into the PK Thunder; Arrow the PK Thunder; and Mirror Shield both the PK Thunder and the resulting projectile child. ^_^

Sorry I had to say it. =P

You know what is funny...Ness and Lucas have good edge guards vs. most of the cast that seems to be able to gimp them so well...oh and again...

PK thunder is a last resort...sort of like Pit's WoI

Ness is C rank...Lucas is A rank...please get it

Oh and for the record...Lucas doesn't even need his thunder...he has Rope Snake/Snake Rope...the thunder only adds 3 horizontal blocks overall compared to that Snake's range...

Oh and the fact that Samus isn't A rank on this list also is bull

 

[Gaussis]

Excuse me while I Din's Fire your PK Thunder.

This happened to me once. The next time I tried it, I threw it in front of me. The Zelda didn't catch it . It works, but you have to literally predict where PKT will be (if it's too close to Ness, this will not happen due to Din's growing hitbox).

Yeah characters with controlled projectiles have a very easy time with Ness and Lucas' recovery. I don't have too much experience with just jumping into PK Thunder. Pit is able to Wing Renewal himself into the PK Thunder; Arrow the PK Thunder; and Mirror Shield both the PK Thunder and the resulting projectile child. ^_^

Sorry I had to say it. =P

Pit is an exception. He won't get punished by the tailwhip if he uses mirror shield. Also, PKT2 will shorten and Pit will take no damage. Arrows are impractical since I can always recover from under the stage (vertical PKT2 FTW). Trying to intercept PKT is foolish, as I just gave you a fool-proof method of killing Ness trying to PKT recover (unless it's above you).

 

[Levitas]

@ chis: I think sonic down 4-5 spots, luigi down one, samus up one, and toon link up one.

 

[Gaussis]

I don't care if you main him, his recovery is not better then Metaknight's

LOL! I never said that ! I said that I would laugh if you couldn't gimp his "oh so predictable" recovery.

 

[_clinton]

LOL! I never said that ! I said that I would laugh if you couldn't gimp his "oh so predictable" recovery.

I like how people can assume things like that...it really makes them look like rational human beings huh Gaussis?

Ness' recovery is underrated...sort of like Wolf's actually

Fun fact...for total horizontal distance 10 level up Lucario and Ness tie until they start using other tricks (PSI magnet, PK Thunder...Double Team (if you want to use it I guess...I wouldn't use it seeing as to how a mess up can cost you that stock and it is based off of another player...oh and Lucario has to be facing backwards as well at the start of the move...) Wall Cling, and Extreme Speed)

Ness with Magnet added in scored an 18 on my test...
Lucario with Double team from high up added in scored a 19...Then Lucario might be able to grab a wall...Lucario scored a 17 w/o Double Team...Really though all Double team seems to do for at least horizontal distance wise is up Lucario's air speed...

With Ness' 2nd jump and Magnet he scored an 13...a 12 w/o it...
Lucario with just his 2nd jump scored a 12...

But as you can see...Ness' Thunder really doesn't add much...

Anyway the reason why Lucario and Ness sort of tie in their 2nd jumps from so high up (lower Ness' jump is better) is because Lucario floats more then Ness...

Oh and before people are sad again...I know Lucario's recovery is better then Ness' overall ok (still think Lucario is a C rank)...I'm just comparing things that they have in common...in that their recoveries are overall different from other characters...

 

[Irow]

Can you give me reasons as to why it's underrated?

 

[Browny]

what dont people get about sonics invincibility on spring. even if you hit him as he recovers, you cant him him. He can jump over the top of thunder if he DI's upwards when sent off the stage lol

 

[Levitas]

my biggest beef with sonic is that he can't snap to the edge. None of his options afford this.

 

[Gaussis]

Can you give me reasons as to why it's underrated?

While I would like to answer this, let me just give you a simple question?

Can you just jump at PKT and gimp Ness/Lucas. If your answer is yes, then I made my point.

Note: If you really want to know, we actually have a thread discussing this at the Ness board .

 

[Irow]

I play Ness quite often.

They don't just jump at me. They attack me.

Like Metaknight dair's me before I can even connect with my PKT.

If a character has a good enough air game, I'm pretty sure they can just swat you if you're forced to use PKT.

 

[Gaussis]

If he is above you, it most likely won't hit (the tail is quite long). Try not to be predictable with it (recover from different places, like right under or over the stage). If they are in front, bring the thunder in front of you. They will have to deal with that ridiculously long tail and most likely will get tailwhipped if they try to attack. The problem is that now, you have to recover backwards (inverse PKT2 recovery). It's hard to learn how to keep your opponents away, but I guess it's something you learn to do over time.

 

[Yuna]

Be careful man...you might end up hitting Ness or Lucas instead...

And this would be bad how unless they were currently PSI Magnetting, which they decidedly are not if they're currently PK Thundering.

This happened to me once. The next time I tried it, I threw it in front of me.

See below. We're talking about on recovery here.

The Zelda didn't catch it .

Because he was a bad Zelda who couldn't direct his Din's Fire on reaction?

It works, but you have to literally predict where PKT will be

You don't have to predict at all. If Ness is away from the ledge and needs to recover using PK Thunder, you cannot magically throw it out in front of you and expect to make it very far.

(if it's too close to Ness, this will not happen due to Din's growing hitbox).

I've done it from literally halfway across the stage from Ness without hitting him. Some of us are just that good.

Pit is an exception. He won't get punished by the tailwhip if he uses mirror shield.

How about we just jump into the head right when you get it out?

Also, PKT2 will shorten and Pit will take no damage.

And during that lag, he'll whack you.

Arrows are impractical since I can always recover from under the stage (vertical PKT2 FTW).

Did you know that arrows can be controlled? Quite well even.

Trying to intercept PKT is foolish, as I just gave you a fool-proof method of killing Ness trying to PKT recover (unless it's above you).

And this would be?

 

[Gaussis]

See below. We're talking about on recovery here.
That is what I meant. Why recover with the thunder behind me when the opponent isn't expecting it from the front.

Because he was a bad Zelda who couldn't direct his Din's Fire on reaction?
Or I wasn't being predictable

You don't have to predict at all. If Ness is away from the ledge and needs to recover using PK Thunder, you cannot magically throw it out in front of you and expect to make it very far.
I'm not sure on what you are trying to say here.

I've done it from literally halfway across the stage from Ness without hitting him. Some of us are just that good.
In other words, it's skill. Give Ness that some of that skill there (after all, PKT is much more controllable). You will most likely not hit Ness with that manuever if Ness tries an unorthodox pattern.

How about we just jump into the head right when you get it out?
Really, you can jump out high enough to do that. Remember, Ness doesn't have to recover low. If you can do it, Ness is being predictable.

And during that lag, he'll whack you.
You won't have to. Did you not understand that Pit gimps Ness by just jumping in front of him with the mirror shield alone?

Did you know that arrows can be controlled? Quite well even.
Try hitting Ness directly under the stage. You can try your loops all you want, but that projectile won't reach him fast enough due to its turn.

And this would be?
You didn't read the Pit part carefully.

Responses in bold.

10 es

 

[Levitas]

To avoid pit arrows, ness must do either a vertical recovery or a very near vertical recovery. Pit will full hop an arrow to give it a much more downward trajectory if you don't.

 

[Gaussis]

Yeah, that's what I had in mind (in case anyone didn't understand). Vertical recovery isn't near as hard as it was in melee.

 

[DanGR]

Why separate Olimar into nolimar and olimar? That's like putting Link with and without a bomb in his hand. Nvm. Go ahead and add that too. Also, add
-TL with a bomb in his hand.
-Wario without his bike,
-and another without his waft.
-add lucario without a wall to cling to
-peach with a turnip
-snake with a grenade (yes, it is possible)
-snake with a mine planted already.
-Go ahead and add all the characters with and without their second jump.
>__________>

Wait a sec... why wouldn't I have any pikmin? lolz, you guys are silly.

 

[Levitas]

nolimar and solo ice climber are jokes.

 

[Yuna]

Responses in bold.

Next time you do this, I won't bother responding to it because it requires me to do extra, unnecessary work.

That is what I meant. Why recover with the thunder behind me when the opponent isn't expecting it from the front.

The opponent could expect you do mix it up. It's not a guaranteed save. It's just a mixup... which means guessing game and if they guess right, guess what, you die.

Or I wasn't being predictable

PK Thunder is not the world's fastest move. If Zelda has Din's Fire out when you throw PKT1 out, all they have to do is aim it since you can't possibly direct it back into Ness fast enough to Din's Fire to not take out PKT1.

Heck, Zelda can even start Din's fire after you start PKT1 is she's close enough.

I'm not sure on what you are trying to say here.

Throwing PKT1 in front of Ness forces a reverse PKT2, which does not give Ness the same options as the other way 'round.

In other words, it's skill. Give Ness that some of that skill there (after all, PKT is much more controllable). You will most likely not hit Ness with that manuever if Ness tries an unorthodox pattern.

Or I could guess his "unorthodox" pattern (which in some situations equal suicide, thus, are off the table).

Really, you can jump out high enough to do that. Remember, Ness doesn't have to recover low. If you can do it, Ness is being predictable.

If Ness is recovering above you and PKT1, how about I just Uair him as Zelda and kill him at around 60%?

You won't have to. Did you not understand that Pit gimps Ness by just jumping in front of him with the mirror shield alone?

I'm assuming Pit is on stage here when he reflects you so you might still be able to grab the ledge. But of course, if it's done off stage, then Ness is dead. Same as anything else that reflects him without influcting knockback.

Try hitting Ness directly under the stage. You can try your loops all you want, but that projectile won't reach him fast enough due to its turn.

Or we could arrow loop you before you PKT1. We don't wait 'til you PKT1 before we charge our edgeguards.

You didn't read the Pit part carefully.

I misread. I thought someone else provided that explanation. I... apologize?

 

[_clinton]

And this would be bad how unless they were currently PSI Magnetting, which they decidedly are not if they're currently PK Thundering.

Yeah...well guess what would happen then? They would just take the damage from Din's...

You don't have to predict at all. If Ness is away from the ledge and needs to recover using PK Thunder, you cannot magically throw it out in front of you and expect to make it very far.

The same could be said for a lot of characters actually if you know...they are far from the ledge and only have a recovery move left...I mean...really

I've done it from literally halfway across the stage from Ness without hitting him. Some of us are just that good.

So who was the Ness?
It takes less then a second to fire off PKT2 for most of us...and we can stall it as well...and still hit it...

How about we just jump into the head right when you get it out?

How about when your jumping right at me I use something like Uair? Unless I'm very low you aren't going to want to get near me ok...
Again on the fact of how much range Thunder2 has...

And during that lag, he'll whack you.

Unless you land right...in which case Ness' landing is lagless...

Did you know that arrows can be controlled? Quite well even.

Yep...and so can PK Thunder...I wonder which one of them has more overall control though?

And this would be bad how unless they were currently PSI Magnetting, which they decidedly are not if they're currently PK Thundering.

Yeah...well guess what would happen then? They would just take the damage from Din's...

You don't have to predict at all. If Ness is away from the ledge and needs to recover using PK Thunder, you cannot magically throw it out in front of you and expect to make it very far.

The same could be said for a lot of characters actually if you know...they are far from the ledge and only have a recovery move left...I mean...really

I've done it from literally halfway across the stage from Ness without hitting him. Some of us are just that good.

So who was the Ness?
It takes less then a second to fire off PKT2 for most of us...and we can stall it as well...and still hit it...

How about we just jump into the head right when you get it out?

How about when your jumping right at me I use something like Uair? Unless I'm very low you aren't going to want to get near me ok...
Again on the fact of how much range Thunder2 has...

And during that lag, he'll whack you.

Unless you land right...in which case Ness' landing is lagless...

Did you know that arrows can be controlled? Quite well even.

Yep...and so can PK Thunder...I wonder which one of them has more overall control though?

 

[Gaussis]

Next time you do this, I won't bother responding to it because it requires me to do extra, unnecessary work.


The opponent could expect you do mix it up. It's not a guaranteed save. It's just a mixup... which means guessing game and if they guess right, guess what, you die.


PK Thunder is not the world's fastest move. If Zelda has Din's Fire out when you throw PKT1 out, all they have to do is aim it since you can't possibly direct it back into Ness fast enough to Din's Fire to not take out PKT1.

Heck, Zelda can even start Din's fire after you start PKT1 is she's close enough.


Throwing PKT1 in front of Ness forces a reverse PKT2, which does not give Ness the same options as the other way 'round.


Or I could guess his "unorthodox" pattern (which in some situations equal suicide, thus, are off the table).


If Ness is recovering above you and PKT1, how about I just Uair him as Zelda and kill him at around 60%?


I'm assuming Pit is on stage here when he reflects you so you might still be able to grab the ledge. But of course, if it's done off stage, then Ness is dead. Same as anything else that reflects him without influcting knockback.


Or we could arrow loop you before you PKT1. We don't wait 'til you PKT1 before we charge our edgeguards.


I misread. I thought someone else provided that explanation. I... apologize?

Fine. I just don't like multiquoting people.

Well, PKT isn't even guaranteed in the first place (unless you have a low-trajectory attack).

It hits faster if it comes from the bottom. FYI Ness accelerates downward slowly during PKT so a thunder directed upward from beneath Ness will hit Ness faster than any other position.

I believe you are assuming that Ness wil always use it slightly under the ledge. Try doing that directly under it.

Not sure by what you mean on the reverse PKT2 part.

Really now? Do you know every direction PKT can/will go and expect to retaliate in time?

Assuming that I read you the same way you read me, I won't have to PKT2. Zelda's startup lag doesn't give you that chance if Ness is high enough.

The Pit statement doesn't need to be argued.

If you arrow me before the attack, then what's your point?

Fair enough. We all make mistakes sometimes.

Note: Responses are correspondent to the quote above.

 

[Yuna]

Yeah...well guess what would happen then? They would just take the damage from Din's...

But it is not bad for Zelda.

Charged Din's = Possible death
Charged Din's = A lot of damage
What will you do after the Din's Fire? If you still can't get back using DI alone,you guessed it, PKT1. It's not in any way bad for Zelda. It's just less good.

The same could be said for a lot of characters actually if you know...they are far from the ledge and only have a recovery move left...I mean...really

Yeah, but their recovery move can't get eaten up without them having a chance to really use them and once that happens, they cannot use them again.

So who was the Ness?
It takes less then a second to fire off PKT2 for most of us...and we can stall it as well...and still hit it...

I started Din's Fire before he started PKT1 because I knew he had no choice but to eventually use PKT2. Either he airdodged my Din's Fire and was forced to recover from below the stage, he PKT1'd in an angle I could Din's Fire or he ate the Din's Fire and died.

If he had airdodged, I would've Din's Fire:d again while he recovered from the airdodge and then PKT1:ed.

Again on the fact of how much range Thunder2 has...

It does not have random range from all around Ness. If you're above me, I can Uair you anywhere inbetween when you start PKT1 and have directed it towards Ness' underside (since the tail will be behind the head while you direct it).

Unless you land right...in which case Ness' landing is lagless...

You cannot land on the stage if Pit is standing at the very edge Mirror Shielding you. You might be able to hug the ledge, though.

Yep...and so can PK Thunder...I wonder which one of them has more overall control though?

Yes, but all Pit has to do is Arrow Loop PKT1. Ness has to avoid getting PKT1 hit by an arrow. Maneuverability does not matter if Pit just manages to hit it. Arrows are fast, so even has up to two shots at it.

I'm not saying it's an auto-hit, I'm just saying that recovering from below the stage doesn't not magically mean safety from edgeguarding.

Well, PKT isn't even guaranteed in the first place (unless you have a low-trajectory attack).

It hits faster if it comes from the bottom. FYI Ness accelerates downward slowly during PKT so a thunder directed upward from beneath Ness will hit Ness faster than any other position.

I have nothing to say this. It's just stating facts which neither refutes me or strenghtens your position unless I'm missing something big here.

I believe you are assuming that Ness wil always use it slightly under the ledge. Try doing that directly under it.

No, I am not. I'm giving you scenarios where Ness' PKT can be gimped. If you're below the stage, Zelda has Dair or she could just jump down and eat it. I'ts not easy, it's not guaranteed, it's risky, but it's not really that hard or impossible.

Not sure by what you mean on the reverse PKT2 part.

Back-turned PKT2. Correct me if I'm wrong but if Ness is recovering and has the stage to the left, if he PKT1s to the left and then loops it around, he'll have to PKT2 upwards and only slightly to the left?

Really now? Do you know every direction PKT can/will go and expect to retaliate in time?

No, but I can guess. That's why it's called a guessing game.

Assuming that I read you the same way you read me, I won't have to PKT2. Zelda's startup lag doesn't give you that chance if Ness is high enough.

What are you going to do after not PKT2? Keep not PKT2 'til you die? You have to recover sometime. I play guessing game with when and how or just go for Ness himself and Din's Fire him into eternity (if possible)

If you arrow me before the attack, then what's your point?

I start the arrow before PKT1 comes out and loop it so that it hits your PKT1 when that one comes out. If it jus hits Ness, yay, extra damage and now I can try again.

 

[Levitas]

It's amazing how extraordinarily efficient Pit and Ness are at gimping each other.

Ness has the second best attack for gimping pit, the best being light arrows, and pit's light arrows are also amazing at edgeguarding ness.

 

[Gaussis]

I have nothing to say this. It's just stating facts which neither refutes me or strenghtens your position unless I'm missing something big here.


No, I am not. I'm giving you scenarios where Ness' PKT can be gimped. If you're below the stage, Zelda has Dair or she could just jump down and eat it. I'ts not easy, it's not guaranteed, it's risky, but it's not really that hard or impossible.


Back-turned PKT2. Correct me if I'm wrong but if Ness is recovering and has the stage to the left, if he PKT1s to the left and then loops it around, he'll have to PKT2 upwards and only slightly to the left?


No, but I can guess. That's why it's called a guessing game.


What are you going to do after not PKT2? Keep not PKT2 'til you die? You have to recover sometime. I play guessing game with when and how or just go for Ness himself and Din's Fire him into eternity (if possible)


I start the arrow before PKT1 comes out and loop it so that it hits your PKT1 when that one comes out. If it jus hits Ness, yay, extra damage and now I can try again.

Alright then, I won't either. It was more or less tidbits. Nothing big really.

You would have to predict it. It's all a prediction game. The goal is to not get anticipated. He could get gimped. It doesn't mean he will.

Not always. I can figure-8 it in a certain way to go perfectly horizontal with an inverse PKT2. It's not easy but it's possible. Hmm, where have I heard that before...

Exactly. Now, if PKT is controlled by someone and that someone isn't you, you are likely going to guess wrong (unless the person is predictable).

I can stall with PSI magnet. PKT2 doesn't have to come out right away. Besides, Ness is much safer above the stage than below it. As for the Din's Fire, nair outprioritizes it and doesn't compromise his recovery by much.

Again, you assume that I will PKT when I am above or slightly below. The arrows are pointless to use here if I recover from directly below the stage. Plus, fair breaks the projectile (if you intend to use it while I come down).

Note: I'm afraid I won't be able to continue this fascinating argument. I'll continue when I get back, k?

 

[Yuna]

You would have to predict it. It's all a prediction game. The goal is to not get anticipated. He could get gimped. It doesn't mean he will.

I said, several times, that it was in no way guaranteed! And if I misjudge it, you'll just eat a charged Din's Fire. Yeah, you'd like that, right? Not bad for Ness at all? Even if he makes it back, that's extra damage.

Not always. I can figure-8 it in a certain way to go perfectly horizontal with an inverse PKT2. It's not easy but it's possible. Hmm, where have I heard that before...

Which would require so much time to get off that my Din's Fire would've been able to pass through you, to the other side and hit you before you could PKT1 yourself. Or I could've just release Din's Fire inside of you for a sweetspot. Or I could just Din's Fire you and then charge another while I wait for your reaction.

Din's Fire is a formidable weapon for a PKT1:ing Ness (no airdoging, no PSI magnet).

Exactly. Now, if PKT is controlled by someone and that someone isn't you, you are likely going to guess wrong (unless the person is predictable).

50/50. "Will he go left or right".

I can stall with PSI magnet. PKT2 doesn't have to come out right away. Besides, Ness is much safer above the stage than below it. As for the Din's Fire, nair outprioritizes it and doesn't compromise his recovery by much.

I can direct Din's Fire away from you, let it explode, then charge another, you'll have to PKT sometime. You Nair my Din's Fire, I charge another.

Again, you assume that I will PKT when I am above or slightly below. The arrows are pointless to use here if I recover from directly below the stage. Plus, fair breaks the projectile (if you intend to use it while I come down).

Arrow Looping, not at all pointless. And the goal is to arrow loop Ness' PKT1, not in his face so he can Fair it.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I think you might wanna put Wario twice, Once for having his bike/ fully charged Wario Waft, the other, only his Up B is available. Gliding aside, Wario is one of the 3 or 4 characters that can go underneith the practice stage if he has all this.

 

[FifthRise]

jiggs, kirby and pit's recovery are all about the same.
i think wario def. has better recovery than kirby and jiggs.
with the bike, the fart, mid-air jump, and up-b, he can recover from improbable distances and heigths.

 

[FifthRise]

I think you might wanna put Wario twice, Once for having his bike/ fully charged Wario Waft, the other, only his Up B is available. Gliding aside, Wario is one of the 3 or 4 characters that can go underneith the practice stage if he has all this.

wario doesn't need a fully charged fart to go around final d.
he just needs that bike.
sorry about double posts.

 

[Gaussis]

I have returned. Now, let's see what was said while I was gone.

I said, several times, that it was in no way guaranteed! And if I misjudge it, you'll just eat a charged Din's Fire. Yeah, you'd like that, right? Not bad for Ness at all? Even if he makes it back, that's extra damage.


Which would require so much time to get off that my Din's Fire would've been able to pass through you, to the other side and hit you before you could PKT1 yourself. Or I could've just release Din's Fire inside of you for a sweetspot. Or I could just Din's Fire you and then charge another while I wait for your reaction.

Din's Fire is a formidable weapon for a PKT1:ing Ness (no airdoging, no PSI magnet).


50/50. "Will he go left or right".


I can direct Din's Fire away from you, let it explode, then charge another, you'll have to PKT sometime. You Nair my Din's Fire, I charge another.


Arrow Looping, not at all pointless. And the goal is to arrow loop Ness' PKT1, not in his face so he can Fair it.

Yeah, let's just leave that one at that. Extra damage isn't as bad as you make it out to be, though. I would rather take damage if it prevents me from losing a stock. You can argue that it will get me closer to death, but at least I am given an extra chance. I get the feeling you don't like damage at all but whatever.

As I mentioned above, I prefer the damage (I'm pretty sure any Ness mainer would). So long as you don't kill the head, it isn't hopeless.

I agree. But it is pointless to isolate din's and PKT when so many factors influence the outcome. Otherwise, it becomes situational.

It is a 50/50 without a doubt. However, it is possible to go right and have it left shortly after. You better be fast.

Nair isn't particularly laggy. It was just a tidbit, nothing much.

In order to reach him, you are going to arrow loop before he gets under the stage or jump and arrow (which again is pointless, considering the mirror option). It's almost like placing two options for you (using Zelda as an example). Din's or aerial. Obviously you'll go for Din's because it's a much better option. Except for those situations where an aerial would be better.

 

[Yuna]

Yeah, let's just leave that one at that. Extra damage isn't as bad as you make it out to be, though. I would rather take damage if it prevents me from losing a stock. You can argue that it will get me closer to death, but at least I am given an extra chance. I get the feeling you don't like damage at all but whatever.

Let's have a summary, shall we?
Me: I can just Din's Fire Ness' PKT1.
clinton: Be careful man...you might end up hitting Ness or Lucas instead...
Me: You make it sound like it's a bad thing. Either I kill him or I inflict extra damage. Either way, Zelda gains something out of it.
You: I shall jump in here and take over and now we'll go in circles!

As I mentioned above, I prefer the damage (I'm pretty sure any Ness mainer would). So long as you don't kill the head, it isn't hopeless.

I never said it's hopeless unless I kill the head. But extra damage means easier time to KO later. Or just right after when I follow up with another Din's Fire and we're back to guessing games and trying to airdodge it and whatever.

I agree. But it is pointless to isolate din's and PKT when so many factors influence the outcome. Otherwise, it becomes situational.

Din's Fire is just an example of a very safe (safe =/= guranteed) option for killing Ness' PKT1.

It is a 50/50 without a doubt. However, it is possible to go right and have it left shortly after. You better be fast.

50/50, still.

Nair isn't particularly laggy. It was just a tidbit, nothing much.

You will get hit frames if the game counts you as having hit something with Nair. Nair lasts for X amount of frames. Then there's the lag just for doing Nair. Meanwhile, I'll direct another Din's Fire at you.

I'm just saying: You won't have enough time to, oh, I don't know, PKT2 yourself through Din's Fire. My Din's Fire is just too fast for that and now we're back to Din's Fire vs. PKT1 mindgames.

In order to reach him, you are going to arrow loop before he gets under the stage or jump and arrow (which again is pointless, considering the mirror option).

How is it pointless if you just sweetspot the edge in such a way that even if you get reflected, you can still grab onto the ledge on backturn?

It's almost like placing two options for you (using Zelda as an example). Din's or aerial. Obviously you'll go for Din's because it's a much better option. Except for those situations where an aerial would be better.

It's called knowing when to do what.

 

[Gaussis]

I'll continue with this tomorrow if that is fine with you. But for one last go...

Let's have a summary, shall we?
Me: I can just Din's Fire Ness' PKT1.
clinton: Be careful man...you might end up hitting Ness or Lucas instead...
Me: You make it sound like it's a bad thing. Either I kill him or I inflict extra damage. Either way, Zelda gains something out of it.
You: I shall jump in here and take over and now we'll go in circles!


I never said it's hopeless unless I kill the head. But extra damage means easier time to KO later. Or just right after when I follow up with another Din's Fire and we're back to guessing games and trying to airdodge it and whatever.


Din's Fire is just an example of a very safe (safe =/= guranteed) option for killing Ness' PKT1.


50/50, still.


You will get hit frames if the game counts you as having hit something with Nair. Nair lasts for X amount of frames. Then there's the lag just for doing Nair. Meanwhile, I'll direct another Din's Fire at you.

I'm just saying: You won't have enough time to, oh, I don't know, PKT2 yourself through Din's Fire. My Din's Fire is just too fast for that and now we're back to Din's Fire vs. PKT1 mindgames.


How is it pointless if you just sweetspot the edge in such a way that even if you get reflected, you can still grab onto the ledge on backturn?


It's called knowing when to do what.

I realized this a while back . Man you have a way of making people assume the worst (with that I'll just Din's response). I'll be wary next time.

As long as Ness gets back on the stage...(small question: how would one Din's lead to another if Ness has a long-range autosweetspot?

Ditto (I'm circling again, now aren't I )

Well, nair has a hitbox for it's entire duration. The entire nair duration cancels both short and midrange Din's Fire. Long range is impractical (unless you want to argue otherwise).

I figured you misunderstood me on the Pit one. To get an arrow at downwards position, you literally have to foresee Ness actually going for the bottom and recovering with PKT. Otherwise, a slight angle miscalculation could screw the whole thing over (not like Zelda's near-guaranteed advantage). Also you do not have a large window to arrow him because of his long sweetspot range. In other words, if he's that close already, you're not gimping him that way, therefore pointless even for damage.

Yeah, I'll make sure not to assume under your presence anymore.

That's it for today. I'm heading to bed. I'll probably be back tomorrow.

 

[Yuna]

As long as Ness gets back on the stage...(small question: how would one Din's lead to another if Ness has a long-range autosweetspot?

If Ness is so close he can auto-sweetspot the stage through mere air control, why would he need to PKT2 at all?

Din's Fire has knockback, Din's Fire has a little bit of hitstun. Din's Fire will lead to another Din's Fire mixup where you'll have to airdodge the 2nd Din's Fire, but if you have to PKT2 to survive, airdodging might kill you.

Well, nair has a hitbox for it's entire duration. The entire nair duration cancels both short and midrange Din's Fire. Long range is impractical (unless you want to argue otherwise).

His nair lasts a longish time! The point is that if he nairs my 1st Din's Fire, I'll just give him a 2nd one. He will not have really gained anything out of it! And I'll still have a mixup. Having Nair does not shut down Din's Fire.

I figured you misunderstood me on the Pit one. To get an arrow at downwards position, you literally have to foresee Ness actually going for the bottom and recovering with PKT. Otherwise, a slight angle miscalculation could screw the whole thing over (not like Zelda's near-guaranteed advantage). Also you do not have a large window to arrow him because of his long sweetspot range. In other words, if he's that close already, you're not gimping him that way, therefore pointless even for damage.

You hit Ness, you get free damage and quite possibly Ness falling down a bit lower. It's not a bad thing and guessing wrong won't cost you anything.

It's a mixup, it's a guessing game. If Pit wins, Ness dies. It can happen. Bla, bla, everything I've up until now x 2.

 

[Chis]

And to sum it all up Ness still sucks.

 

[Ville]

Yuna's right... in my expperience Zelda is nearly impossible to stop from recovering...
unless you somehow gimp her before her tele-recovery... which happens about never... lol
her teleport has great range, and an ending hitbox... and her aerials are pretty devastating....
I'm not sure how she got to c rank at least.... imo

ps...probably a dumb question-um... I was wondering if someone could help me understand the difference between toon link's and link's recoveries.... I see they are suggested to be 4 ranks apart... but I can't quite figure out what would do that... ; ;

Toon link has wooden jetpack.

BTT: Put lucas down to rank C, his PKT is easily destroyable with most aerials.
Luigi gotta move higher, if you do it right, you can nearly recover from any place of the stage.
Also DK and Marth should move one up, cuz their recovery is hardly gimpable.

 

[Nexus Bond]

Toon link has wooden jetpack.

BTT: Put lucas down to rank C, his PKT is easily destroyable with most aerials.
Luigi gotta move higher, if you do it right, you can nearly recover from any place of the stage.
Also DK and Marth should move one up, cuz their recovery is hardly gimpable.

Have you seen Lucas's Wavebounced zap jump and how far it goes horizontal and vertical? And he can follow that with Magnet Pull to get him halfway across Final Destination, after which he STILL has his Thunder or tether.
Agreed.
But DK and Marth do not have the greatest range. If they are in range, then yes, it's hardly gimpable, but DK's has bad vertical range, and Marth's doesn't have that great horizontal range, although, yes Marth can use shieldbreaker and second jump-dancing blade to gain height and distance